Lalleshwari At Another Forum

[Singh47]

I was browsing through a buddhist discussion forum and to my surprise I find that some of the UK Nangs are on that site giving the Buddhists a very distorted version of SIkhi. The infamous new age hippie we all know as Nang Lalleshwari aka Shaka Nyorai is also a member of that forum and he goes by the name of ‘Sarabloh’. He along with some of his nang friends began their usual Bakwas by calling all Sikhs who don’t adhere to their Sanatan beliefs as ‘heretics’. To push the Sanatan agenda further, he claims that it is alright for Sikh women to shave etc. He goes even further and alleges that Sikh women who wear keskis are trying to be men.

You can read some of his comments on the following thread:

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...topic=5266&st=0

[Niranjana]

Singh47, the only other "sikh" poster on that forum was me - and please could you for the benefit of all, explain how what I have written concerning Jaap Sahib and its universal non-gender biased praises and deep contemplative nature has anything to do with "the usual Bakwas" or helping to "push the Sanatan agenda further"???

[Singh47]

Naranjana, the following quote which you wrote makes me beleive that you did try to push the 'Sanatan' agenda.

Unfortunately, Protestant-influenced translators of many Sikh writings have again seen fit to translate the genderless terms used in this composition into masculine vocabulary (He, His etc).

What do you mean by 'Protestant-influanced'? the only people I have seen use this term are the Sanatan bunch i.e. Narsingha, Lalleshwari aka Shaka Nyorai, Sarabloh, Bahadur Singh, Jawan 'Mard'(and I use the term 'Mard' very loosely as he seems anything but a Mard).

[Niranjana]

Singh47,

I'll answer all your points below:

1. What do you mean by 'Protestant-influanced'?

As I stated in my original post: "translate the genderless terms used in this composition into masculine vocabulary (He, His etc)". I would have hoped it be clear what I refer to, but in any event:

Have a look at some of the translation undertaken during the Singh Sabha period and afterwards and we see numerous references to "Lord" "His" "He" and all the more, in textual references to the "Khalsa" being the "Chuch Puritan" and Amrit Sanchar being "Baptism". These terms and explanations together with many more, have also shaped some of our practices (sermons on "Sunday", 'choirs' etc).

If required, I am happy to discuss this further with more examples, however we cannot deny that there has occurred particularly during the early 1900's, be it a concerted or indirect, influence and impact of Protestant type values and mindset upon the scholars and institutions of the Panth.

2. The only people I have seen use this term are the Sanatan bunch i.e. Narsingha, Lalleshwari aka Shaka Nyorai, Sarabloh, Bahadur Singh,

Singh47, these people also use the terms Sikh, Gurprashad, Dasam Granth, Guru, Shastar etc - does that mean anyone using these terms is a Sanatanist? If people want to have a real discussion on Sanatan Sikhi, then let's do it - I've tried plenty of times, however all that results is certain people venting their personal fustrations on each other (given the historical precedent set by those engaging in this activity, it would seem that perhaps they should all get married as the build up of testosterone in them is making them too edgy!)

3.Jawan 'Mard'(and I use the term 'Mard' very loosely as he seems anything but a Mard).

[gupt_paapi]

tru say singh sahib ji

[Akaali]

This was discussed a while back, many months ago. But daas has also posted my views on the topic.

[Singh47]

Veer Naranjana Jee,

But why use the term ‘pretestant influanced’? if your argument is that the protestants use “masculine vocabulary (He, His etc)”, or that "Lord" "His" "He", "Baptism".

Do Catholics not also use these terms? Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the Catholics also use ‘he, his, Lord, Baptism’ etc? I’ll agree with you that using Christian terms is not correct, but to say that they were ‘protestant influenced’ is also nothing short of an extreme analogy.

The only Sikhs I have seen that can be considered ‘protestant influenced’ as you put are the ones in India who were or are influenced by the communist ideology which had a strong impact in Punjab and in particular the educated Sikhs who also brought a lot of harm to the Singh Sabha revivals and thought. These communist influenced Sikhs who when translating Sikh scriptures into English used Christian terms and judged everything based on current science rather than spirituality. It is unfortunate that Sikhs in the west are confusing these communist minded Sikhs with Singh Sabhias.

The reason I find the term ‘protestant influenced’ so offending is because it seems like a new trend by Sanatanists to use absurd analogies when dealing with Panthic matters. Examples of these absurd analogies are the following:

-Babbars and other Sikh freedom fighters are compared to Al-Qaida

-Sant Jernail Singh Bhindrawala is compared to Osama Bin Laden.

-AKJ and Taksal are compared to Wahabee and Taliban movements.

-Singh Sabha is compared to the Christian protestant reformation

-Karseva of Gurdwaras carried out by Sants is compared to the destruction of the Buddha statues by the Taliban.

These absurd analogies are nothing short of non-sense. The person who came up with these bizarre analogies is Bahadur Singh(aka Lalleshwari, Shaka Nyorai etc), an ego-centric Portuguese Hippie who in my opinion is just a charlatan. It’s just unfortunate that we are now seeing Sikhs using these absurd analogies first coined by Bahadur Singh.

Veer Jee, what I’m trying to say is that I’m not against your objections for the use of a certain vocabulary because I actually agree with you one that, but to use these absurd analogies created by the perverse imagination of an eccentric hippie is just offending to many Sikhs especially considering the malicious intent from which these analogies were created by that lunatic.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

Thank you.

[Niranjana]

Veer Singh 47 Sahib,

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your concerns, however I do feel you are perhaps a little over concerned with hidden agendas than you need to be in this case, allow me to elucidate:

<<But why use the term ‘pretestant influanced’? if your argument is that the protestants use “masculine vocabulary (He, His etc)”, or that "Lord" "His" "He", "Baptism".

Do Catholics not also use these terms? Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the Catholics also use ‘he, his, Lord, Baptism’ etc? I’ll agree with you that using Christian terms is not correct, but to say that they were ‘protestant influenced’ is also nothing short of an extreme analogy. >>

Veer Jee, agreed, however the party responsible for this was the Protestant Church of England, not the Catholics in the main. The domination of the British over India as a whole was predominantly protestant, as was the initial British Chroniclers such as Macaufille. It is not only the translation into gender specific terms that I regard as protestant influence, but also some of the other factors - for instance:

the focus predominantly today on "sunday" Gurdwara, "sunday school", the attempts of some people to have "choirs" within the Gurdwara (and in the process do away with Gurmat Sangeet proper), but even this much, today we could argue, is a result of living in the western world and adapting to convenience (which itself is another discussion), but for benefit of doubt, let us allow this point...

...more concerning is the gross lack of "simran", particularly 'swas-swas' type (i.e. meditation, dhyan, samadhi, dharana etc) that is propagated by mainstream Gurdwaras, some even suggesting that we should focus more on Seva and Kirt Karni! Today, it is only when one attends a Jatha, Taksal or Sampradha-affiliated Sangat one finds this practice is propagated, the standard Singh Sabha and Ramgarhia Gurdwaras on the other hand are quite content with only Kirtan and Katha...again, this may appear to some as a gross generalisation, however speak to the mainstream sangat at these Gurdwaras, they will either stop short of saying, "simran means you have to REMEMBER God" or full blown out state "Samadhi/Dhyan nahi lana", as was once stated openly to me by a Granthi from Delhi Gurdwara Bangla Sahib and a member of their management committee too. This is clearly an influence of Protestant attitudes as opposed to Catholic, same again with the attitudes of certain sections of the modern Sikh community in matters concerning pictures, artwork, music, women etc - this is not exclusive to Sikhs alone but the whole of India, which came under such influence.

I find it disturbing to think of the Khalsa as "Church Puritan".

<<The only Sikhs I have seen that can be considered ‘protestant influenced’ as you put are the ones in India who were or are influenced by the communist ideology which had a strong impact in Punjab and in particular the educated Sikhs who also brought a lot of harm to the Singh Sabha revivals and thought. These communist influenced Sikhs who when translating Sikh scriptures into English used Christian terms and judged everything based on current science rather than spirituality. It is unfortunate that Sikhs in the west are confusing these communist minded Sikhs with Singh Sabhias.>>

This is exactly part of what I refer to Veer Jee, and the IOSS in Chandigarh being a prime example of the modern era, however the same occurred during the Singh Sabha reforms as well. Have a look at the articles written by Kamala Rose Kaur on the subject and also the Nihang Thread, where Bikramjit Singh and I had a discussion, there a few quotes I had provided there from the Singh Sabha movement which raise this concern as well [that said, let's be realistic, the entire Singh Sabha is not consisting of a single persons view or opinion, to argue that the entire Singh Sabha is a Protestant machination is akin to suggesting that all "Sanatan" Sampradhas are RSS affiliated, which clearly is not true given gems like Baba Nand Singh, Bhai Sham Singh and others who all had their schooling or affiliation with one or more of the 'sampradhas' and are clearly Panthic figures].

<<The reason I find the term ‘protestant influenced’ so offending is because it seems like a new trend by Sanatanists to use absurd analogies when dealing with Panthic matters. Examples of these absurd analogies are the following:

-Babbars and other Sikh freedom fighters are compared to Al-Qaida

-Sant Jernail Singh Bhindrawala is compared to Osama Bin Laden.

-AKJ and Taksal are compared to Wahabee and Taliban movements.

-Singh Sabha is compared to the Christian protestant reformation

-Karseva of Gurdwaras carried out by Sants is compared to the destruction of the Buddha statues by the Taliban.

These absurd analogies are nothing short of non-sense. >>

Veer Jee, terms or analogies used by a particular group of people do not necessarily make the terms themselves bad!

<<The person who came up with these bizarre analogies is Bahadur Singh(aka Lalleshwari, Shaka Nyorai etc), an ego-centric Portuguese Hippie who in my opinion is just a charlatan. It’s just unfortunate that we are now seeing Sikhs using these absurd analogies first coined by Bahadur Singh.>>

I would like to contest this, as Bahadur Singh is not alone in using these terms and with exception to his use of the term 'heretic' which is clearly a mark of his Semetic ancestral background, comparisons with British Protestanism, the Taliban, Osama etc are hardly unique to him, the very group who mentioned above (communist influenced), although arguably the opposite end of the spectrum to lalleshvari have also drawn such comparisons, be they right or grossly wrong, of course is another debate (for a further look into this have a look at the writings of Puneet Singh Lamba, S. Singh Bal and others).

<<Veer Jee, what I’m trying to say is that I’m not against your objections for the use of a certain vocabulary because I actually agree with you one that, but to use these absurd analogies created by the perverse imagination of an eccentric hippie is just offending to many Sikhs especially considering the malicious intent from which these analogies were created by that lunatic.>>

I trust one can see that the comment on the Buddhist site did not concern any of the above, aimed to steer any members interested in Sikhi towards Sikh scripture (in this case Jaap Sahib) and wished to caveat any translation they may find online with the forewarning that they maybe biased (in gender terms) as Akal Purakh within Sikh lore has no gender.

The only thing, perhaps in hindsight I should have mentioned (since discovering yet another trend arising on the net) is that whilst Sikhs are not a Patriachal religion (i.e. male orientated) we are neither Matriachal (worshippers of any divine mother) given the sheer nonsense being preached by the infamous "Nirmala Devi" on www.adishakti.org

These types of sites remind me of the nonsense dreamt up by Dan Brown in the Da Vinci Code - interesting read and almost convincing rather like his "indian" and "sikh" counterparts, except when one really looks at some basic facts (the foundation of the structure if you like), not only are they weak, but down right wrong!!!

Gur FAteh!

Niranjana.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

Veer Naranjana Jee,

But why use the term ‘pretestant influanced’? if your argument is that the protestants use “masculine vocabulary (He, His etc)”, or that "Lord" "His" "He", "Baptism".

Do Catholics not also use these terms? Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the Catholics also use ‘he, his, Lord, Baptism’ etc? I’ll agree with you that using Christian terms is not correct, but to say that they were ‘protestant influenced’ is also nothing short of an extreme analogy. 

The only Sikhs I have seen that can be considered ‘protestant influenced’ as you put are the ones in India who were or are influenced by the communist ideology which had a strong impact in Punjab and in particular the educated Sikhs who also brought a lot of harm to the Singh Sabha revivals and thought.  These communist influenced Sikhs who when translating Sikh scriptures into English used Christian terms and judged everything based on current science rather than spirituality.  It is unfortunate that Sikhs in the west are confusing these communist minded Sikhs with Singh Sabhias. 

The reason I find the term ‘protestant influenced’ so offending is because it seems like a new trend by Sanatanists to use absurd analogies when dealing with Panthic matters.  Examples of these absurd analogies are the following:

-Babbars and other Sikh freedom fighters are compared to Al-Qaida

-Sant Jernail Singh Bhindrawala is compared to Osama Bin Laden.

-AKJ and Taksal are compared to Wahabee and Taliban movements.

-Singh Sabha is compared to the Christian protestant reformation

-Karseva of Gurdwaras carried out by Sants is compared to the destruction of the Buddha statues by the Taliban.

These absurd analogies are nothing short of non-sense.  The person who came up with these bizarre analogies is Bahadur Singh(aka Lalleshwari, Shaka Nyorai etc), an ego-centric Portuguese Hippie who in my opinion is just a charlatan.  It’s just unfortunate that we are now seeing Sikhs using these absurd analogies first coined by Bahadur Singh.

Veer Jee, what I’m trying to say is that I’m not against your objections for the use of a certain vocabulary because I actually agree with you one that, but to use these absurd analogies created by the perverse imagination of an eccentric hippie is just offending to many Sikhs especially considering the malicious intent from which these analogies were created by that lunatic.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

Thank you.

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