CASTE!!

[~*SiNghNi*~]

even if they don't admit it some people on here have hatred for singh sabha bradford...

and how dare master p call singh sabhaz singhnia n singhs militant i bet u havnt even had one conversation with them n yet ur judgin them

or is it the way we dress or the fact that we don't hold diwali parties or the fact we dnt allow inapropriate behaviour in gurudwara?

[doctor_mani]

even if they don't admit it some people on here have hatred for singh sabha bradford...

and how dare master p call singh sabhaz singhnia n singhs militant i bet u havnt even had one conversation with them n yet ur judgin them

or is it the way we dress or the fact that we don't hold diwali parties or the fact we dnt allow inapropriate behaviour in gurudwara?

SINGHNI penji why do you assume some people here have hatred for Singh Sahiba Bradford? Did anyone say that to you?

As a sikh i recognise the whole human race as one- never mind having hatred for my own sikh brothers and sisters. As a doctor I cannot have hate for any one in anyway and I treat all my patients equally and with the most respect.

SINGHNI Ji, I ask you, if master p called Singh Sahibas' Singhnia and Singhs militant then whats wrong with that? The cambridge dictionary defonition of 'militant' is,

'active, determined and often willing to use force'.

You can check this defonition on this link for youre confirmation:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...50517&dict=CALD

Is there anything wrong with being active, determined and willing? More often than not I hear my brothers calling Singh Sahiba Bradford the most active G

udwara in bradford- and when master p coincides with that statement you find it offensive! I observe you have a negative mentality- and negative thinking only gets you to one place- NOWHERE!

Correct me if I'm wrong SINGHNI Penji, but i cant recall any1 commenting on diwali parties or the way the Sangat at Singh Sahiba Bradford dresses. I strongly recomend you to stop making up things to support your arguement because your not allowed to do that with Dharm Raja, so its best you get used to it now.

You mentioned,

'or is it [...] we dnt allow inapropriate behaviour in gurudwara?'

I ask you which gurdwara does allow inapropriate behaviour? The answer in NO gurdwara. But the truth of life is that we probabaly get inapropriate behaviour at every gudwara- because I certainly have observed inaproriate behaviour in every gurdwara in Bradford atleast.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Doctor_ Mani

[Sarbloh Soulja]

even if they don't admit it some people on here have hatred for singh sabha bradford...

really I have to give it up to Singh Sabha Gurdwara....i really do, they are the ones who got me into sikhi, i only went there 1ce to a camp, and seriously that camp changed my life!!NO JOKE......in all those years I went to Leeds rd gurdwara but i ddnt learn 'anything' new about sikhi, just 1 visit 2 singh sabha really opened my eyes ( no offence to leeds rd!, if thats how ure taking it)

and how dare master p call singh sabhaz singhnia n singhs militant i bet u havnt even had one conversation with them n yet ur judgin them

as for this, I wudnt worri about singhni, coz infact this is a compliment....really all singhs are supposed to be militant :nihungsmile:

sorry if i have offended any1, but these are my opinions.

GURFATEH

[doctor_mani]

Rash Veera you have not offended me or any of the Leeds Road Sangat. Im glad you feel open to share youre views and pray to Waheguru you continue to do so.

If Singh Sahiba Gurdwara opened you eyes then that is something they should be proud of as to the many other things. Far as Leeds Road is concerned I am aware that they have not been active in promoting Sikhi to the youth in the past. But if you look around that is slowly but surly changing. There is a tabla and vaja class every week, and there is the Akhal Sikh Association too. It probabaly does not sound much, but scan youre mind 2 years ago, you'll find none of this.

If the Sikhi promotion grows exponentially with waheguru ji's kirpa then the future should be bright- inshala.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Doctor_Mani

[novtejsinghkhalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

The only point of preaching is if you practice what you say.

Thats why singh sabha is looked upon as being so active or "militant".

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[ISingh]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

ISingh, Vir Ji, if their is a hukamnama stating that Guru Granth Sahib Ji should not be taken to or rest outside any other place other than the Gurdwara- please could you state it. If you are not completely sure if there is such a hukamnama (as it appears to me), you should not presume there is one.

Very true. I shouldn't presume there is one but i will try to confirm this.

If anything we Sikhs should be more willing to visit the mandir if it has links with RSS- to let the RSS know that we sikhs are so strong that noything can change us

Regarding RSS, the whole issue is being looked at from the surface. Your very right in saying that we should be strong enough to visit the Mandir. But here's where RSS and other Hindu organisations are 1 step ahead of us. You know, I know and they know that Sikhs at this present time are not united in the Panth. How can we be when there are people in main organisations of the Panth are running around like dogs for the Indian government and implementing more of th

e Hindu beliefs into the Panth. Because they know the majority of sikhs dont have a clue and are vulnerable, they ask for Nagar Kirtan to stop outside the mandhir. Why? So they can drill the idea into the Nagar Kirtan sangat that Sikhi is part of Hinduism!!!! The other reason they give is that they want to pay respect to Guru Ji????? Guru Ka Ghar (Gurdwara) is open to anyone and everyone for them to pay satkaar to Guru Ji. So why is the Mandhir any special??

I dont see whats wrong for a sikh or the sikhs guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji) to attened a Mandir

Its not wrong to visit any place of worship whether it be a church , mosque or mandhir to expand your knowledge on other faiths and to understand what goes on in their place of worship. But if your saying "Oh i don't want to go to the Gurdwara today, i'll go the Mandir today" then that is completely wrong for obvious reasons, the first one being idol worship is completely against Gurmat. Secondly, you being a Sikh will complete contradict what Guru Ji Says about idol worship:

AMg 1349

ang 1349

Page 1349

pRBwqI ]

prubhaathee

Prabhaatee:

Alhu eyku msIiq bsqu hY Avru mulKu iksu kyrw ]

aluhu eaek museeth busuth hai avur mulukh kis kaeraa

If the Lo

rd Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

ihMdU mUriq nwm invwsI duh mih qqu n hyrw ]1]

hindhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thuth n haeraa

According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||

Alh rwm jIvau qyry nweI ]

aleh raam jeevo thaerae naaee

O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

qU kir imhrwmiq sweI ]1] rhwau ]

thoo kar mihuraamath saaee

Please show mercy to me, O Master. ||1||Pause||

dKn dyis hrI kw bwsw piCim Alh mukwmw ]dhukhun dhaes huree kaa baasaa pashim aleh mukaamaa

The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west.

idl mih Koij idlY idil Kojhu eyhI Taur mukwmw ]2]

dhil mehi khoj dhilai dhil khojuhu eaehee thour mukaamaa

So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. ||2||

bRhmn igAws krih caubIsw kwjI mh rmjwnw ]

brehumun giaas kurehi choubeesaa kaajee meh rumujaanaa

The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan.

igAwrh mws pws kY rwKy eykY mwih inDwnw

]3]

giaareh maas paas kai raakhae eaekai maahi nidhaanaa

The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. ||3||

khw aufIsy mjnu kIAw ikAw msIiq isru nWeyN ]

kehaa ouddeesae mujun keeaa kiaa museeth sir naaeae

What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque?

idl mih kptu invwj gujwrY ikAw hj kwbY jWeyN ]4]

dhil mehi kuputt nivaaj gujaarai kiaa huj kaabai jaaeae

If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? ||4||

eyqy Aaurq mrdw swjy ey sB rUp qum@wry ]

eaethae aouruth murudhaa saajae eae subh roop thumuaarae

You fashioned all these men and women, Lord. All these are Your Forms.

kbIru pUMgrw rwm Alh kw sB gur pIr hmwry ]5]

kubeer poonguraa raam aleh kaa subh gur peer humaarae

Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

khqu kbIru sunhu nr nrvY prhu eyk kI srnw ]

kehuth kubeer sunuhu nur nuruvai puruhu eaek kee surunaa

Says Kabeer, listen, O men and women: seek the Sanctuary of the One.

kyvl nwmu jphu ry pRwnI qb hI inhcY qrnw ]6]2]

kaevul naam jupuhu rae praanee thub hee nihuchai thurunaa

Chant the Naam, the Name of the

Lord, O mortals, and you shall surely be carried across. ||6||2||

Go to http://www.sikhlionz.com/rss.htm to see what kind of things they distribute about Sikhi.

correct me if i'm wrong, did not Guru Nanak Dev Ji not visit a masjid? Guru Nanak Dev ji visited a masjid but still worshiped the one mercifull waheguru beacuse he saw no difference in allah and waheguru.

Correct. But here's why Guru Nanak Dev Ji really went to Masjid:

After this, Guru Nanak donned a religious costume and associated constantly with religious men. He remained silent for one day, and the next he uttered the pregnant announcement, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.' The Sikhs interpret this to mean generally that both Hindus and Muhammadans had forgotten the precepts of their religions. On a complaint made by the Nawab's Qazi, or expounder of Muhammadan law, the Guru was summoned before Daulat Khan to give an explanation of his words. He refused to go, saying, 'What have I to do with your Khan?' The Guru was again called a madman. His mind was full of his mission, and whenever he spoke be merely said, 'There is no Hindu and no Musalman.' The Qazi was not slow to make another representation to the Governor on the impropriety of Nanak's utterance. Upon this the Governor sent for him. A footman went and told the Guru that the Governor had requested him to come to h

im. Then Guru Nanak stood up and went to the Governor. The Governor addressed him, 'Nanak, it is my misfortune that such an officer as thou should have become a faqir.' The Governor then seated him beside him, and directed his Qazi to ask, now that Nanak was in conversational mood, the meaning of his utterance. The Qazi became thoughtful, and smiled. He then asked Nanak, 'What hath happened to thee, that

[1. S. colloquialism.

2. Mâru.]

{p. 38}

thou sayest there is no Hindu and no Musalman?

The Guru, not being engaged in controversy with Hindus at the time, gave no answer to the first part of the question. In explanation of his statement that there was no Musalman he uttered the following:--

To be[1] a Musalman is difficult; if one be really so, then one may be called a Musalman.

Let one first love the religion of saints,[2] and put aside pride and pelf[3] as the file removeth rust.

Let him accept the religion of his pilots, and dismiss anxiety regarding death or life;[4]

Let him heartily obey the will of God, worship the Creator, and efface himself--

When he is kind to all men, then Nanak, shall he be indeed a Musalman.[5]

The Qazi then put further questions to the Guru. The Guru called on Mardana to play the rebeck, and sang to it the following replies and instructions adapted for Muhammadans:--

Make kindness thy mosque, sincerity thy prayer-carpet, what is just and lawful thy Quran,

Modesty thy circumcision, civility thy fasting, so shalt thou be a Musalman;

Make right conduct thy Kaaba,[6] truth thy spiritual guide, good works thy creed and thy prayer,

The will of God thy rosary, and God will preserve thine honour, O Nanak

[1 In the original, 'to be called a Musalman.' The same idiom is found in Greek.

2. Also translated--(a) Let him first of all make his religion agreeable to men; (B) let him first love his saints and his religion.

3. Also translated--(a) which bring trouble; (B) to dispel pride and worldly love is to be filed or cleansed of impurities.

4. This verse is also translated--Being resigned to God, obedient (dîn), and lowly (mahâne), let man set aside all fear of birth and death--the transmigration which so exercises the oriental mind.

5. Mâjh ki Wâr.

6. The great cube-like Muhammadan temple at Makka to which the faithful make pilgrimages.]

{p. 39}

Nanak, let others' goods[1] be to thee as swine to the Musalman and kine to the Hindu;[2]

Hindu and Musalman spiritual teachers will go bail for thee if thou eat not carrion.[3]

Thou shalt not go to heaven by lip service; it is by the practice of truth thou shalt be delivered.

Unlawful food will not become lawful by putting spices[4] therein.

Nanak, from false words only falsehood can be obtained.

There are five prayers, five times for prayer, and five names for them[5]--

The first should be truth, the second what is right, the third charity in God's name,

The fourth good intentions, the fifth the praise and glory of God.

If thou make good works the creed thou repeatest, thou shalt be a Musalman.

They who are false, O Nanak, shall only obtain what is altogether false.

The Qazi became astonished at being thus lectured. Prayers had become to him a matter of idle lip-repetition of Arabic texts, while his mind was occupied with his worldly affairs.

It was now the time for afternoon prayer. The whole company, including Nanak, went to the mosque. Up rose the Qazi and began the service. The Guru looked towards him and laughed in his face. When prayer was over, the Qazi complained to the Nawab of Nanak's conduct. The Guru said he had laughed because the Qazi's prayer was not

[1. Literally

--rights, or what is due to thy neighbour.

2. The Musalmâns abstain from the flesh of swine, and the Hindus from the flesh of kine.

3. What is not thine own.

4. This means that, if wealth be improperly obtained, a portion of it bestowed in alms will be no atonement.

5. Prayers, or rather texts from the Qurân, are repeated by strict Musalmâns at dawn, at midday, in the afternoon, in the evening, and before going to sleep at night.]

{p. 40}

accepted of God. The Qazi asked Nanak to state the reason for his conclusion. The Guru replied that immediately before prayer the Qazi had unloosed a new-born filly. While he ostensibly performed divine service, he remembered there was a well in the enclosure, and his mind was filled with apprehension lest the filly should fall into it. His heart was therefore not in his devotions. The Guru informed the Nawab also that while he was pretending to pray, he was thinking of purchasing horses in Kabul. Both admitted the truth of the Guru's statements, said he was favoured of God, and fell at his feet. The Guru then uttered the following:--

He is a Musalman who effaceth himself,

Who maketh truth and contentment his holy creed,

Who neither toucheth what is standing, nor eateth what hath fallen--

Such a Musalman shall go to Paradise

Taken from The Sikh Religion by Max Arthur MacAuliffe 1909, Volume 1, The Life of Guru Nanak, Chapter III

http://www.sacred-texts.com/skh/tsr1/index.htm

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[~*SiNghNi*~]

Isingh i think ur getting ur wires crossed

i was being sarcastic

yeh but rashpal he didnt mean it in a good way his intentions were still wrong

am i the only bloody one on here that can read inbetween the lines? lol

Akhal Sikh Association ? u must be joking if thats sikhi active then im the queen of england

[ISingh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Isingh i think ur getting ur wires crossed

Ehh...Singhni i wasn't even replying to your post. My reply is on a completely different topic: RSS and Nagar Kirtan!

I think your getting your wires crossed. :T:

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[doctor_mani]

ISingh Veera,

I thank you that you will try to confirm that there is such a hukamnama.

You say,

'they ask for Nagar Kirtan to stop outside the mandhir. Why? So they can drill the idea into the Nagar Kirtan sangat that Sikhi is part of Hinduism!!!!'

To be honest I personaly think that the majority of the Sikhs would just laugh if someone told them the Sikhs are part of Hinduism- they certainly cant persuade me just by taking the Nagar Kirtan to the Mandhir. Also most of the youth at the Bradford Nagar Kirtan just go to 'check out' so it doesnt matter to them wherever you take them (im not implying this is good but im just pointing out if they were try to drill something in someones head, who would be concerned?) As for the youth that are religious, well they know better dont they.

You also say,

'The other reason they give is that they want to pay respect to Guru Ji????? Guru Ka Ghar (Gurdwara) is open to anyone and everyone for them to pay satkaar to Guru Ji. So why is the Mandhir any special??'

I dont believe they are implying the Mandhir is a special place but I believe its just simply what they say- they want to show their respect. Why do we invite close friends to our houses for meals? Its just respect. I think we shouldnt jump to hardcore conclusions unless their is solid evidence- but this was just painting youre own picture withought anything to paint.

You also say,

'But if your saying "Oh i don't want to go to the Gurdwara today, i'll go the Mandir today" then that is completely wrong for obvious reasons, the first one being idol worship is completely against Gurmat. Seco

ndly, you being a Sikh will complete contradict what Guru Ji Says about idol worship'

As far as the Nager Kirtan was concerened, noone out of the sangat went to the Mandhir as an alternative to the Gurdwara and I didnt hear of any Sikh at the Nagar Kirtan conducting idol worship- and if they did then thats their problem as they have'nt got the knowledge. But fundamently there is nothing wrong for a Sikh to go to Mandhir.

You say,

'Correct. But here's why Guru Nanak Dev Ji really went to Masjid:[...]'

Its not important why Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Masjid for our sake but whats more important to us is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji did attened another place of worship other than the Gurdwara.

~*SiNghNi*~ penji you say,

'Isingh i think ur getting ur wires crossed

i was being sarcastic

yeh but rashpal he didnt mean it in a good way his intentions were still wrong

am i the only bloody one on here that can read inbetween the lines? lol

Akhal Sikh Association ? u must be joking if thats sikhi active then im the queen of england '

Please lets stop being sarcastic and lets start being 'straight'- it works over the phone or face-to-face but if you have'nt figured out yet, it doesnt seem to work over the net. I have suggested you to stop pressuming things before and I do it again- you cannot judge what was said in a bad way or good way - just literally accept what someone has said to you. If you dont even know who ISingh Veera was replying to then how could you possible read between lines? :T:

As for the Akhal Sikh Association, who are you to decide whether their active or not- how many times have you been their?...-NEVER!

You could have atleast looked up the definition of 'active' and then bothered replying. Active in the cambridge

dictionary is:

'busy with or ready to perform a particular activity'

And heres the link just for your reference:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...ALD&desc=active

Yes, I claim the ASA to be active under the cambridge dictionary defonition as they are busy and perform activities in the form of weekly presentations. Because they say, 'seeing is believing' if you want to see what goes on at the ASA- come down, Wednesdays 7-8:30PM at the Panjabi School. If you then have any points to make about ASA then feel welcome to tell us. Meanwhile, stop making your own implications because your not some sort of 'Antherjami'.

Penji I suggest you spend just a further 5 minutes and research about the truth before making such remarks that niether favour me or yourself. Its because of arogant people like you that us Sikhs are not united and until you people come to grip with a thing called 'sanity', we cannot ever unit.

And oh yeah ~*SiNghNi*~ penji, just for your information the cambridge defonition for 'sanity' is: ' having a healthy mind and not mentally ill, or showing good judgment and understanding'. It will also help if you go to the following link and actualy read some examples of the word 'sanity'- and maybe just then you may understand what it means:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...69764&dict=CALD

Good luck- it will be a day of achievment when you understand this simple yet powerfull word- and when you actually become what it means it will be the biggest and best thing you've achieved and you'll have many more friends.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Doctor_Mani

Waheguru~Waheguru~Waheguru help us, need some guidance from above,

these people got me got me questioning, where is the love???????????????

[gurupanth]

Dr Mani stated:

fundamently there is nothing wrong for a Sikh to go to Mandhir.

Then why would you go to a mandir? Are you saying that there is nothing wrong for Sikhs to go to the Mandir to to take part in worshipping idols, joining in with the arti ceremony or any other hindu practice?If you are, then I disagree with you. If you aren't, then can you explain why it is okay to go to a mandir. Guru Sahib says:

mÚ 1 ]

mu 1

First Mehl:

ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ]

hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaahee

The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ]

naaradh kehiaa s pooj kuraahee

As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

pwQru ly pUjih mugD gvwr ]

paathur lae poojehi mugudh guvaar

The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

Eih jw Awip fuby qum khw qrxhwru ]2]

ouhi jaa aap ddubae thum kehaa thurunehaar

But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||

and also:

ihMdU mUriq nwm invwsI duh mih qqu n hyrw ]1]

hindhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thuth n haeraa

According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||

Sorry if I offended