People Please See This!

[gupt_paapi]

wait.. i mean just because some "sikhs" were wrong, they trying to prove that all sikhs are! STEREO TYPE!

[buddasingh]

Unless you have some good information to prove that Sikhs are guilty keep your opinions to yourself. It is the government that is responsible for violence and hatred. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

123507[/snapback]

Boy you sure are living in a dream world if you think ppl, even we sikhs don't slip and make mistakes once in a while. If you really honestly think that, then please justify what Bagri said, really, i would like you do do that if really think we are perfect and don't slip once a while. Also, please explain why moderates sikh, are own ppl! were killed or harmed for voiceing there opinions, or the account of the bomb test?

As i said, i believe that the GOI is ore invlolved than what appears, and probably they have played a key roll in this disaster.

As for justice? what is your definition of justice? There is fine line between the two...

when you punish a group or an individual for crimes they have done, that is called justice.

However, just killing random ppl just because their Hindu's is not justice - that is revenge. And those ppl that died on 182 had lives, faces, goals and family. No, that is not justice, that is revenge, a near act of a hate crime.

lol, you really are something else, sorry to disillusion you, no really... i am!

123513[/snapback]

K Starr

You really have to get a grip and do some comprehensive reading and thinking. Follow the path of logic that you do in your interpretation of recent history and you will really get duped in life.

A few important points...

1. Don't throw around generalized alien suggestions such as "some of us around here deny that we had no involvement in this attack, however it's more complicated than that"..... Where do you come up with this? You are repeating the mantra of so called moderate-hikhs who fed into the racism of the establishment to help lead them to a dead-end. If the establishment was not guilty itself of being so mislead by their racist assumptions, these moderate-hicks would be charged with obstruction of justice.

If you have an inkling of valid suspicion then contact the authorities immediately. Your comment is indicative of media junk overdose. I suspect that you simply did not give it thought. Be careful how far you go, defamation is something that is not acceptable and compensable with damages in our society.

2. You speak of hate crimes. It is nothing short of hate to suggest that an identifiable group is somehow guilty of a hate crime. Hate at the AI trial it was that of a hundred million dollar investment in a system which took two men through trial on such flimsy and idiotic evidence. Hate for the past 20 plus years was the local source of media around the world. Read the judgment reasons.

3. Bagri does not represent sikhs anymore than any one of 30 million other sikhs. Post 1984 there was hardly a sikh who was not deeply hurt. A few crossed the line in their comments under extreme circumstances. At the same time, many more of the most fervent Sikhs denounced the killing of innocent people, this would never be known via mainstream media. Sikhs engrained in the values displayed by the Guruji’s would make you proud as to their fearless humanitarian perspective on justice. However, this never made headlines.

Did anyone ask Bagri what he was referring to? Was Bagri making a symbolic analogy in numbers to Sikhs being killed? What context? which hindus? Did Bagri ever say in any speech that it is wrong to kill innocent people? His comments mean so little in the larger picture. It takes little thought to put together what is happening. 20 years after the fact an obscure video is repeated as evidence of blowing up a plane… only because they could not come up with a better evidence for motive by the time for trial. If that is what it took, any one of hundreds of thousands of sikhs could be guilty. It is utterly stupid and insulting to all that the video is of any substance in relation to Air India.

3. Moderate-hikhs and racist establishments used this to attack the sikh faith and advance their own political agendas. Moderate-hikhs who were interviewed by the media repeatedly were political opportunists taking advantage of the vulnerability of victims circumstances. They put out sound bytes for the media. For the most part, their IQs were too low to put together two intelligent sentences, but they were self professed spokespeople led by the agenda set by a racist establishment. Racist does not necessarily mean that one hates a skin color. It also means that one holds onto deeply embedded stereotypes that taint one’s judgment and perspective.

4. You speak of the people who died. The media attention is a farce. Do you have any idea how many so called fundamentalist-sikhs would be praying for the victims? Those that are true to their faith actually were able to cut through the sensationalistic b.s. and understand tragedy, but the media would have you believe otherwise. The victims have been supported yet sadly also exploited by the system right to this date. The exploitation began with the Canadian Prime Minister at the time sending condolences to India despite the fact that they were Canadian citizens. They were exploited throughout by the people who most suggest to support them, that is the media and other punjabi political opportunists. This is a despicable aspect of the tragedy that the media obviously will not reveal.

“Victims” as you say are real people. The carry on contributing to the society the love of the ones they lost. Their pain, joy and thoughts obviously are more complex than portrayed in highly buffed documentaries for mass consumption. Some victims while young or vulnerable have been indoctrinated into a theory, much like religion. They have been victimized again. If you truly respect victims as complex real people then you will understand this rather than do the same insulting egg-shell walk making the victim an object of our simplistic pity.

Your comments are very mislead and misleading. Keep exploring and asking, that is admirable. However, with with the level of knowledge you display here, you need to add large doses of humility before suggesting conclusions.

[SSM]

Sikhs seek justice with the guilty - not random people.

To call for murdering 50,000 Hindus in "retaliation" is not Gurmat. Seeking Justice and retaliating by killing anyone and everyone for the religion they possess should be differentiated.

Sikh history bears witness that Guru Sahibs and Great Gursikhs only delivered justice to those who committed crimes, not to innocent people because they were "hindu" or "muslim".

Watching the speach calling for murder of Hindus let the Sikh perception down.

bhul chuk maaf karnee ji.

123511[/snapback]

OK DEAR WE KNOW THAT REVENGE IS NEVER THE SOLTION TO ANYTHING...BUT IF U WOULD HAVE BEEN IN DELHI DURING 84 ATTACKS U MIGHT HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON THAT.... SIKHISM SAYS THAT WHEN ALL THE WAY OF SOLUTION ENDS THEN U CAN FIGHT FOR IT... AND THIS IS WAT HAS HAPPENED... WAHT HAPPENED IN DELHI WAS PLANED MURDER AND NOTHING ELSE... SIKHS WERE SCRUTINIZED AND THEN KILLED... IT WAS NOT RANDOM KILLING AND EVERYBODY WAS INVOLVED....GOI, POLICE AND THE MOBS WHICH WAS BROUGHT BY GOVERNMENT.... I NEVER SAYSTHAT ALL PERSONS ARE BAD COZ SOME HINDU PEOPLE SAVED ALOT OF SIKHS.... BUT POINT IS WHEN U DONT GET JUSTICE WITH WORDS WHAT THE ALTERNATE LEFT WITH U PEOPLES... KILLING HINDU WAS JST TO SHOW THE WORLD AND TO BRING THEIR ATTENTION TO THAT PORTION OF THE COUNTRY THAT SIKHS WERE ALWAYS SUPRESSED..... WHATEVER HAPPENED IS BAD FOR ALL PARTS.... WE SHOULD PRAY THAT THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN LIFE AGAIN.....

FATEH

123523[/snapback]

soz, but are you saying that it was acceptable to kill random people so the world could know that Sikhs were always supressed?

[Bijla Singh]

star darcy, my whole point is that if you have some information to prove that Sikhs had a hand in air bombing then present it otherwise don't just label them with "terrorism". Sikhs make mistakes, I agree but violence and killing innocent people is not part of Sikhi. Definition of "Justice" is given to us by Guru Ji Himself. You can study 500 years of history to understand it. And lastly there is no such thing as "moderate sikh". There is only one type of Sikh and that is of Guru Gobind Singh Ji - Guru Roop Khalsa. The fact of the matter is that you not allowing Khalistan discussion to take place in "Sikhs for Change" section of Sikh philosophy forum shows your narrow minded and biased thinking. I am a pro Khalistani but at least I am willing to listen to the other side. What new change will you bring to Sikhs after kicking out politics from Sikhi? Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Ambrosia]

ONLY Guru Ji is in charge of justice.

As He gives, so do we receive.

Accept his hukam as sweet.

and... for karmic and ethical reasons... lets remember to focus on posetive things... not to spread violence or hatred... only love and understanding for all the human race.

[naam_jap]

I agree..

Violence will bring violence, If we think like that lets kill all the hindus, because their fathers or grandfathers killed our grandfathers, fathers, mothers.

Why are we attacking a special sect of people. The mistake is not in the hindus. Not every hindu is the way you categorise them.

fight oppression. But dont fight innocent people. There were hindus supporting the sikhs also.

The biggest problem is the ego, the root of everything. Before thinking of khalistan, why not be proper sikhs first!!

[SSM]

ofcourse we should accept Guru Ji's hukam.

But bhenji

Killing innocent people is wrong, revenge is not.

Only way to get revenge is by killing the guilty, then its def not wrong.

In India, you cant sit on your backside hoping the sky will be blue tomorrow.

You have to fight for justice. Guru Ji has gifted us weapons, they are not to just carry around or use when there is an 'immediate' danger to one's life but even when there is a danger to the whole community. Sikhs have always fought for what is right. But at one time sikhs were clearly given permission by Guru Ji, eg Bandha Singh Bahadur(?) but now with Guru Ji's blessings and hoping we understand the hukam from Guru Granth Sahib we should not step back when it comes to revenge, eg. Gobind Ram(?).

But just to make clear my view, a sikh must only kill the guilty and NOT those seen to be guilty because they are also HINDU

[Ambrosia]

i agree that killing innocent people is wrong... but say you kill the guilty... does that make you any better than them? Surely you also shall die int he same way eventually. Why take their life away, instead of love them and give them another chance to know truth and remember God?

All the world wars go on and on through generations and generations for the sake of revenge. As the great grandfather fought with another so do their grandchildren return to the battle feild to meet and avenge eachother's past generations. Nothing comes of this but more blood. The only important thing is to love and remember God in each and every person.

The only remedy to these wars is to love even your enemy. Surly he/she can not kill you when seeing that love in your eyes. See no difference between your enemy, your friends, your support, your slanderers, and God. Recognize that All is God... there is no exception. If you can love even your enemies, then indeed you are a true sant soldier.

Bhul chuk maaf

[naam_jap]

totally agree.. i wish these khalistanis understand.

SSM: the guilty are going to die, they are not going to live forever. When they die they will be judged.

This place where we have been born, it teaches us to love, not to kill and take revenge. This is life's ultimate lesson to learn. Unconditional love, and accept the hukam of his command whatever has happened has happened, The sikhs already killed Indira Gandhi, the leader so to say? Arent you happy enough? or you want more blood, because they killed us back?

Khalistanis are not the driving force that carries out Guru ji's hukam. What will be done will be done. There is no need for violence. Why do you think Sant Jarnail Singh ji was martyred? and that too on the guru ji's gurpurab, the birthday of Guru Arjan Dev ji. Why ? Sikhism is not a terroist organisation. There was corruption even much much before 1984. Why has all these continued ? ?

Does history ever look back and ask these questions ? Its important to fix it.

IF you love someone, will they kill you ?

Didnt Guru ji say "Only those who have loved, will find God"

Bhai Kanhaiya Singh Ji, when he was giving water to the dying muslim soldiers on the battlefield was blessed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

[Vikram Singh]

i agree that killing innocent people is wrong... but say you kill the guilty... does that make you any better than them? Surely you also shall die int he same way eventually. Why take their life away, instead of love them and give them another chance to know truth and remember God?

All the world wars go on and on through generations and generations for the sake of revenge. As the great grandfather fought with another so do their grandchildren return to the battle feild to meet and avenge eachother's past generations. Nothing comes of this but more blood. The only important thing is to love and remember God in each and every person.

The only remedy to these wars is to love even your enemy. Surly he/she can not kill you when seeing that love in your eyes. See no difference between your enemy, your friends, your support, your slanderers, and God. Recognize that All is God... there is no exception. If you can love even your enemies, then indeed you are a true sant soldier.

Bhul chuk maaf

123610[/snapback]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa! Waheguru ji ki Fateh!!

Guru HarGobind and Guru Gobind had armies, they themselves took part in battles. They and their Sikhs killed tyrants.

“I have been sent into this world by the Preceptor-Lord to propagate Dharma (righteousness).

The Lord asked me to spread Dharma, and vanquish the tyrants and evil-minded persons. 42.

I have taken birth of this purpose, the saints should comprehend this in their minds.

(I have been born) to spread Dharma, and protect saints, and root out tyrants and evil-minded persons.43.”

Pg. 134 of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib justified the use of the sword as a duty and as a means of protecting the weak and the oppressed. With human brutes, non-violence is meaningless. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib says:

“When the affairs are past other remedies,

It is justifiable to unsheath the sword. “

Tyrants are evil. They should be opposed in the interests of the good of humanity as a whole. The sword is neither to be used for conquest nor for wreaking vengeance. The sword is meant only for self-defence or for the good of the people. In cases of injustice and intolerance, the refusal to use the sword may do more harm than good. The Sikh's sword is not an instrument of offence but a symbol of independence, self-respect and power. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib called it Durga or Bhagwati and praises it thus :

“Sword that smites in a flash,

That scatters the armies of the wicked

In the great battle-field,

0 symbol of the brave.

Your arm is irresistible, your brightness shines forth

The splendour of the black dazzles like the sun.

Sword, you are the scourge of saints,

You are the scourge of the wicked ;

Scatterer of sinners, I take refuge with you.

Hail to the Creator. Saviour and sustainer,

Hail to you : Sword supreme !”

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa! Waheguru ji ki Fateh!!