Snatanis Got Proper Reply

[Guest A Singh.]

Veer Namstang Singh Ji please refrain from deviating from the topic and going into another Bhai Randhir Singh / Ragmalla fairytale.

Ragmalla was a complete non issue in Bhai Sahib's time, it was not even read at the Akal Takht. You have previously posted on other forums stories with different variations which are based on hear say and no solid proof.

Stories like this are spread around in Chinese whispers - how appropriate that no one in the entire world knows Bhai Sahib accepted Ragmalla except a few Taksali Singhs (and Taksal in particular are extremely pro-Ragmalla and even include it in some of their Nitnem Gutke from what I have heard!) when it was Taksal who pushed for Ragmalla to be read so strongly again in the Karku years in Punjab.

Spreading of this type of misinformation will not further your anti-AKJ/BKI agenda.

BTW to say Bhai Sahib kept his change in views to himself because he thought people would lose respect for him, is quite offensive and rude to such a Gurmukh.

[H4RPAL]

There has been hostility between Nihangs and AKJ like always. At first, when bhasuria pseudo scholar declined bhagat di bani along with ragmalla. Nihang Singhs of Budda dal were ready to sort out this malech masand along with whoever supporting him to disown bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ie- Bhagat bani, Ragmalla. It was Sant Giani Gurbachan singh Ji Bhindranwale who handle this suitation pretty well, sat and had talks with budda dal not to raise swords against ram raes of the panth and advised them- this can be solved without any violence. Then the troubling times of 84 came along where cross fired between nihangs and akj started. Nang phola who was excommuniciated from Shrimoni Budda dal. He killed lot of great innocent babar khalsa's. Babbar khalsa in revenge killed lot of innocent old school nihangs because they use to shak shaheedi degh(sukha) That was all their crime that they used to shak sukha.  Few members of Babbar khalsa  also started distorting Nihang sacred symbols ie- Farla tradition, Aad Chand. Actions of both sides were disguisting. There is still subtle tentions between Nihangs and Akjs even to this day.

Now let's look at the suitations of nihangs in UK. Teja, Niddar VS Akj UK is a personal one. Teji and Niddar were both AKJ in some point in their life. They both became ex-akj when they adapted Nihang outlook. Teji was fanatic since day one because of ideology he grew up as insecure samagam boi. All teja/narsingha did was went from one extreme (khatar akj) to another extreme (khatar snatanist/nihang).

Anyway going back to bhai randhir singh ji (ratan of the panth). Bhai randhir singh ji closed his ties with bhasuria and admitted to sant giani gurbachan singh Bhindranwale that he made a terrible mistake regarding ragmalla at end of his day. Reason bhai randhir singh ji didn't admit that mistake to his close associates because he didn't want his close associates to loose sharda in him and besides nobody will listen to him as things went far already. Gyani Thakur Singh Ji patiala wale who is a student of damdami taksal mentioned this in a room where akj singhs were present who wanted to know views of damdami taksal regarding bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji. Gyani ji, have immense respect towards bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji for admitting the truth.

Anyone who has problem with above paragraph, take your concerns with damdami taksal old school singhs. They all have their firm beleif that bhai randhir singh ji did admitted his mistake. Bhai Sahib is no doubt is bhramdristi van, bhramgyani in my eyes.

As gurbani says, no one is perfect. Mistakes do happen by hands of Gursikhs. It's great step to admit that mistake and move on.

130935[/snapback]

I have previosuly never heard these suggestions that Niddar and Teja were formerly AKJ. Where did you learn of this?

[AKJ Chandigarh]

do not know why these links are not working.

[AKJ Chandigarh]

bhai amritpal singh is not akj singh. he amrit chak from hazur sahib. he wrote himself on his website - http://www.amritworld.com/hazooree_maryada...dh/bhoomika.pdf but he critcised hazuri maryada also http://www.amritworld.com/hazooree_maryada...k_adhiyain.html

i have given link in my first post in this thread but this link is not working. in these pages amritpal singh has criticised nang websites. he has properly quoted to their websites and gave reply one by one.

i will talk to him and then will make a post here to tell that why these links are not workgin

[Niranjana]

AKJ Chandigarh,

Criticising is the incorrect term to use - however, given your own background and many others here, I am not surprised that people find analysis to be criticism when it doesn't suit their needs or when it agrees with their negative views on a particular point.

Just like the Nihang thread is not an 'beating' or 'trashing' against Nihangs, the analysis of Hazoori Maryada is no different, indeed the same with the analysis of the Snatan Sikhs.

From my reading of his works to date, where things are challenged, they have been done with the necessary questions and references (and not on the basis of what so and so Baba said or Bhai Sahib had a vision of) and where matters have been shown to be inconsistent, it does not negate their acceptability today, only the assertion of their dogma as professed by their supporters.

Unfortunately no matter how hard Sikh scholars or writers try, the masses can only see things in terms of black and white and desire to stick everything into compartments.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana.

[Singh47]

Nam Stang Jee, your info is all distorted and you have blown out of proportion this ‘hostility’ between the AKJ and Nihangs.

Nam Stang Jee wrote,

“At first, when bhasuria pseudo scholar declined bhagat di bani along with ragmalla.’

The Sikh sabha Basour was one of the greatest organizations in Sikh history. They were mainly responsible for reviving Sikhi all over Malwa. Singh Sabha Basaour had many jewels in its organization such as Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jee, Sant Attar Singh Mastuanay walay (who for some time even acted as it’s head) and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha. Strange how you still felt the need to link Bhai Randhir SIngh with Basour, yet ignored the other Chardi Kala SInghs associated with the Basour.

Teja Singh Basour who at one time was a Chardikala Singh, but later he got corrupted for some unknown reason. He was excommunicated from the Panth not because of his disbelief in Ragmala, but because he had tried to take Bhagat Bani out of Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Most of the Singhs of that time did not believe in Ragmala. Even Nirmalas like Kavi Santokh Singh, Sant Singh, Giani Gian Singh, Pandit Tara Singh Narotam did not believe in Ragmala, and they were here way before Teja Singh Basour was even born. Furthermore, the Singhs that had excommunicated Teja Singh Basour themselves did not believe in Ragmala. So it doesn’t make sense trying to link Ragmala issue with Bhagat Bani issue as they are not the same.

Nam Stang Jee wrote

“Nihang Singhs of Budda dal were ready to sort out this malech masand along with whoever supporting him to disown bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ie- Bhagat bani, Ragmalla.”

The Nihang ability to ‘sort out’ anyone was put to the test when they got their chance against Singh Sabha Akalis under Akali Kartar Singh Chabbar in 1920. In 1920 hundreds of fully armed Nihangs did all the Huladbazi(hooliganism) they could when they took over the Akal Takht after drinking some Sukka and under the guidance of the British backed Mahants. At first the Akali Jatha respectfully requested the Nihangs to leave the Akal Takht and not act in defiance to the Khalsa Panth. After repeated requests, Akali Kartar Singh Chabbar’s patience finally ran out. That is when Singhs from the Akali Jatha like lions roared into the Akal Takht and threw out the Nihangs. This in itself speaks volumes about the Nihang ability to ‘sort out’ anyone that you so boast of.

Nam Stang Jee wrote

“Then the troubling times of 84 came along where cross fired between nihangs and akj started.”

AKJ and Nihangs never had this type of ‘cross fire’ relationship. As Joyce Pettigrew noted in her book, the Babbars were primarily focused in taking care of the Nirankaris. It was infact the Damdami Taksal that had a ‘cross fire’ relationship with the Nihangs. When Santa Singh went against the wishes of the Panth by working for Indira Gandhi, it was under Taksali pressure that the Panth excommunicated him. Then the Panth under the leadership of the Taksal demolished the Nihang built Sarkari Akal Takht.

After 1984, many Nihangs saw that they were very unpopular in Punjab. They began harassing Punjabi villagers. Nihang Jathadars like Nihang Kahn Singh Baggi who was a well known Nihang Gundaa did all the Gundaagardi he could against innocent Punjabi peasants, and openly did parchar against Sant Jernail Singh Bhindrawalay, sometimes even using profanities at Sant Bhindrawalay. Then a Taksali Singh, (Shaheed)Sukhdev Singh Sakeera and Singhs with him decided to punish this Dusht and sent him straight to Dharam Rai. Sukhdev Singh Sakeera who was also a Panj Pyara in the Taksal gave out a call that no one should dare to cremate the body of Nihang Kahn Singh. Hearing this, Nihang Santa Singh declared that anyone who cremated the body of Kahn Singh will succeed him. It was Ajit Singh poohla who answered this call, and became the succeeding Jathadar.

Nam Stang wrote:

“Nang phola who was excommuniciated from Shrimoni Budda dal. He killed lot of great innocent babar khalsa's. Babbar khalsa in revenge killed lot of innocent old school nihangs because they use to shak shaheedi degh(sukha) That was all their crime that they used to shak sukha.”

Strange how Poohla was never excommunicated from the Shrimoni Budda dal when he was carrying out his killing spree of Jujharoo Singhs and their families & also raping innocent teenage Punjabi girls from the villages. Nihang Santa Singh decided to excommunicate Poohla only after he killed a Nihang, and began challenging Santa’s right to lead the Nihang procession at Hola Mahala.

Furthermore, the reason Poohla killed Babbars and their families is because his headquarters in Amritsar was in the area that was a Babbar stronghold. If he was located at an area where Jujharoo SInghs from Taksal dominated, he would have done the same thing to them. Poohla and the police for which he worked for did not see AKJ, Taksal or SGPC. For them, all Jujharoo Singhs were the same. It is usually us Internet folks who divide out Shaheeds into these groups.

“Bhai randhir singh ji closed his ties with bhasuria and admitted to sant giani gurbachan singh Bhindranwale that he made a terrible mistake regarding ragmalla at end of his day. Reason bhai randhir singh ji didn't admit that mistake to his close associates because he didn't want his close associates to loose sharda in him and besides nobody will listen to him as things went far already.”

I don’t know about this. Reading about Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jee’s life in his Autobiography, and that narrated by his companions, it seems highly unlikely that Bhai Randhir Singh would care about what anybody thinks of him. My conclusion from my knowledge of Bhai Randhir Singh’s personality and characteristics is that your remarks and story about him is a complete invention.

“Few members of Babbar khalsa also started distorting Nihang sacred symbols ie- Farla tradition, Aad Chand. Actions of both sides were disguisting. There is still subtle tentions between Nihangs and Akjs even to this day.”

I don’t know of any Babbar Singh who wore a Farla. The only Babbar who wore a Farla was Talwinder Singh Babbar, and he got his Farla from Tarna Dal. As for the Aad Chand, again I don’t know of any Babbars to my knowledge who wore the Chand. But even if they did wear a Chand, I don’t see how this is the property of Nihangs only. A Farla I can understand, but a CHand is not exclusive only to Nihangs. Singhs of all groups wear them. Even I have worn a Chand, and a blue Chola few times, and I don’t see why I need the approval or permission of Nihangs to do so. It is my right as a Sikh to wear these as they belong to the Khalsa Panth, and was worn by our Dasmesh Pita, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

[disguised]

do not know why these links are not working. 

131017[/snapback]

ur not alone... they weren't working for me either! :lol:

[N30S1NGH]

Good post Singh Santali Bhaaji,

covered lot of points that I didn't know.

But I think I will still stick around taksali side of story regarding Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji admitting his mistakes to Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji.

Fateeh

[Gupt daasan daas]

as for taksal story

this is written in sant kartaar singh jes biography

chitta chola

and many respected taksalis around the world admit to this

many akj jathai member do not belive tha

bhula chuka maf

[AKJ Chandigarh]

ur not alone... they weren't working for me either! 

:lol: they were workgin for me few days ago.

just talked to amrit pa ji. he said he does not care when people call him akj or kala afgana. he is a singh of sri HAZUR guru gobind singh ji and nothing else. :T:

he says he has not given link to any akj site on amritworld link page. similrly any akj site did not give link to amritworld. there is no relation in akj and amritworld site. he has personal relations with many people. some are akj singhs.

his hidden section on uk nang group is going on amritworld website with more details. he said atleast two more updates are pending on his nihang section.

his comments on niddar singh websites will be available for his students in his gupt section on amritworld from next week. after 15 of this month he may public his gupt section for others. the title of this section will be comments on sanatanism, instead of sikhismg v/s sanatanism, as it was on sikhismguide hidden section.

there is not any organisation behind him. owner of sikhawareness site from usa is hosting amritworld site. amardeep singh from uk proofread his nihang section. amritworld site express only amritpal singh 's views. he is not associate with any religious or political party. there is no other person in amritworld team. his students joined him when he instructed them to take photos on some occasions like hola mahala or fatehgar sahib.