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I hate this guy:


Ryu Hayabusa
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Something else to consider from another forum:

Always find myself coming back this bloke, but Agehananda Bharati explained that someone can reach a 'zero state' (mystic union) without it affecting their moral behaviour, although it would seem to hinder future progress. From experience, I have met people who do not live typically moralistic lives who undoubtedly have had that unified experience. I have met athiests who have had this experience. The question lies in whether there are degrees to this experience. Bharati states that the only person he met who seemed to consistently attain this state was Ramana Maharishi.

Osho seems to be another example of someone who had the experience, could beautifully elucidate upon it, was blessed with incredible chit, but whom fame took over and ruined. I think it is a mistake to discredit all of his work on his later failings. Another classic example of this is Chogyum Trungpa, the famous 20th century Mahayana Buddhust lama, who wrote many very good texts (including ironically 'Cutting through Spiritual Materialism' which along with St. John of the Cross' 'Dark Night of the Soul' both of which are like a tick-list of spiritual 'I do that' vices!). Trungpa went off the rails because of his kaam. He seemingly always was a bit of a randy old bugger, but his many highly dedicated followers were put into a real dilemna - do we reject all his teachings or do we carry on? They carried on, and decided that his behaviour was a modern example of 'crazy wisdom', outlandish immoral behaviour designed to shake you up, reassess things, shake you out of taking things for granted. Another example of crazy wisdom is the 6th Dalai Lama, Tsangyang Gyatso, ironically who was more concerned about earthly beauty, drinking, lazing around with his friends, chasing girls and writing poems, than sitting all day blessing people and studying.

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Dear Pheena and Bikramjit SIngh ji,

Both of you make good points, and in a way both of you are correct.

Firstly, covering ones head in a gurdwara is part of the maryada made by the collective panth and as such no one individual has the authority to challenge or change that practice.

Secondly, why was this maryada of covering ones head in a gurdwara created? Actualy, the true maryada is that EVERY SIKH should keep their head covered AT ALL TIMES. We are to respect our hair as part of gift from God and should show them the highest level of satkaar. This means for a sikh to keep his head covered with a dastaar, and for ladies either to cover with a chunee, rumaal or dastaar (whichever they feel comfortable with). Now it is our own laziness that we have forgotten the orginal reasons for covering our heads, which is further compounded by the fact that majority of individuals wihtin Sikh fold cut their hair and thus have little need to wear dastaars or chunees. This has resulted in the present state where we mistakenly feel that one only has to keep their head covered in the gurdwara.

This leads to the third point. It is our own foolishness to think that we are only in the presence of the guru inside a gurdwara (or any other venue, home where the saroop of guru granth sahib is seen). Regardless wether we try to distinguish this as 'physical' presence or not, the fact remains that we stil associate our guru more in terms of a physical bir/pothi rather than the shabad-gyaan within it. IF we realized that the guru is the shabad, and that this shabad has no form, and rather exists at all times, in all forms within our minds and hearts then we would never feel that that the guru is only phsyically present with us in a gurdwara and not in our homes or on the streets.

We will not realize that:

ibnu Bwgw siqguru nw imlY Gir bYiTAw inkit inq pwis ]

Without destiny, the True Guru is not found, even though He sits within the home of our own inner being, always near and close at hand

Our minds will become focused only on phsyical realm when our mind itself has no physical form. I think that is what the commentary of Osho was really aimed at. I do not think he would be so arrogant to openly insult the sentiments and feelings of Sikhs and openly attack their maryada for personal gain. I think what he was trying to do was make people think outside of their enclosed boxes and realize that the Guru/God is always with us all around.

guru myrY sMig sdw hY nwly ]

My Guru is always with me, near at hand.

We do not have to rush to gurdwara, or to a physical saroop of Guru Granth Sahib to have the gurus darshan. We can have this darshan at anytime and any place so long as we keep the words of teh guru in our minds.

so siqguru ipAwrw myrY nwil hY ijQY ikQY mYno ley CfweI ]

That Beloved True Guru is always with me; wherever I may be, He will save me.

It is not by keeping a physical copy of the shabads in our pockets or a bir in our home that we become close to guru. It is by keeping the teachings of the guru, his gyaan, within every moment of our lives that we come to feel the presence of the guru with us at all times.

gurmiq aUqm sMig swiQ ]

The most sublime Word of the Guru's Teachings is always with us.

Taken further, once we realize that the guru is always with us, then we will also see that God is always with us. For the Guru and GOd are merged in one and never separate from the other. Thus when we enshrine the shabad in our minds we will realize that:

siqguir nwil idKwilAw riv rihAw sB Qwie ]

The Guru has shown me that the Lord is always with me; He is permeating and pervading all places.

And this understandin can only be achieved thru the teachings, gyaan contained WITHIN THE SHABAD, not jus physically looking or sittin in the presence of the written shabad.

So ultimately what this means is that if one considers themselves a Sikh, and accepts the GUru as their guide then they must also accept the teachings of that Guru and follow them. And this includes the teaching that:

guir pUrY hir nwil idKwilAw hau siqgur ivthu sd vwirAw jIau ]2]

The Perfect Guru has shown me that the Lord is always with me. I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru.

So if our Guru is always with us, and GOd is always with us should we not show them respect AT ALL TIMES? And if a sikh is to show respect to his guru by keeping his head covered, should he not keep his head covered AT ALL TIMES? Why should we limit our headcovering to just a few moments of a week while we sit in the gurdwara? Is that the only time our guru is ever with us? DUring the rest of the week is our guru/god far away from us that we can do whatever we please?

This is the reason why inside a gurudwara we show utmost respect for Guru, i.e. cover our heads, dont drink alcohol, dont smoke, dont swear or yell out loud yet as soon as we step outside the doorway of the gurdwara its as if magically that guru is no longer with us and we are free to engage in whatever kind of immoral behaviour we want to. Its as if we have made our guru a prisoner of the gurudwara!! We must get away from this mentalitiy n realize that he is ALWAYS WITH US, and then we will start showing respect and following his teachings AT ALL TIMES n not just when we see the saroop in our presence.

As stated earlier, i think too often we are victims of distortion of peoples true words and intention. I reiterate that what Osho was likely tryin to do was make us realize this concept that god/guru is always wiht us. The guru themselvs openly critcized the pandits/brahmins for preaching that the Lord can only be found in the mandir. THey said do not fall into this closed mindset that God only lives and can be only found in a mandir/temple. He is always with u. And this false belief of God/Guru being confined to any one place is what the Gurus tried to take us away from yet sadly we are falling deeper and deeper into that same pit once again.

OUr state today is exactly like it was of the hindus 500 years ago ahwen bhagat Ramanand while asking a hindu why he was so keen on goin to the mandir go the reply from that person (from SGGS):

eyk idvs mn BeI aumMg ]

One day, a desire welled up in my mind.

Gis cMdn coAw bhu sugMD ]

I ground up sandalwood, along with several fragrant oils.

pUjn cwlI bRhm Twie ]

I went to God's place, and worshipped Him there.

We are all victim to this mindset that our Guru/God can only hear us, or we can only see them when we are at the sacred gurdwara. But Bhagat Ramanand goes on to say that person that why do u run to mandir to find him. God is always with u.

so bRhmu bqwieE gur mn hI mwih ]1]

That God showed me the Guru, within my own mind.

This understandin came thru the gyaan of the guru. Ramanand then told the hindu friend of his that do not get entangled in this rituals. Keep faith in God but do not let that faith become an empty repetitive ritual devoid of any benefit and meaning. Thus he ended by tellin that friend:

byd purwn sB dyKy joie ]

I have searched through all the Vedas and the Puraanas.

aUhW qau jweIAY jau eIhW n hoie ]2]

I would go there, only if the Lord were not here

Do u think bhagat ramanand was trying to mock or disrespect his hindu friend when he said this? Obviously to a hindu goin to mandar n doing pooja is of utmost importance yet Bhagat Ji openly criticized them for this? Why? Cuz he wanted to make them realize what they were doing and why they were doing it rather then just repetitively doing it cuz everyone else said u shud. So do not take the words of Osho as an attack on Sikhi. Rather try to see them from this light and the deeper intention behind his words. Many times, when writing down the words someone speaks or trying to conver the actions/history into words the original meaning and spirit of the situation/person is lost. I think this is what has happend with regards to Osho's message.

I am not telling anyone to not cover their head in gurdwara. For this is part of our maryada and we must all follow it. But ask yourselves why we follow it and know the reasons. Do not embroiled in oh he covers his head and he doesnt n let that be reason for arguments. Instead realize the greater importance of recognizing god resides in each of us at all times regardless of what religion we practice and what covering is on our head.

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Pheena

Please read the quote again. Osho claims to have been invited to the Harmandir Sahib. I'm not sure that story is even true because Osho like most dumbhis are not adverse to inventing stories in order to make themselves look good. If the incident actually occurred then I would assume that as a guest he would have known the reason why the hair are covered within a Gurdwara. Unless of course his whole purpose was to create an argument. The rest of the quotes does point to him being someone out to mock others especially his ignorant remarks about Guru Nanak being the only Guru. It does cause me some amusement when you seem to think that any quote can be taken as having two 'ways of looking at it' There isn't always two ways of looking at things.

I would however like to read your other way of looking at it when Osho said only Guru Nanak was the Guru and the rest of the Gurus were not. I look forward to your reply.

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Pheena

Please read the quote again. Osho claims to have been invited to the Harmandir Sahib. I'm not sure that story is even true because Osho like most dumbhis are not adverse to inventing stories in order to make themselves look good. If the incident actually occurred then I would assume that as a guest he would have known the reason why the hair are covered within a Gurdwara. Unless of course his whole purpose was to create an argument. The rest of the quotes does point to him being someone out to mock others especially his ignorant remarks about Guru Nanak being the only Guru. It does cause me some amusement when you seem to think that any quote can be taken as having two 'ways of looking at it' There isn't always two ways of looking at things.

I would however like to read your other way of looking at it when Osho said only Guru Nanak was the Guru and the rest of the Gurus were not. I look forward to your reply.

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veer ji, you must have missed this sentence of mine in the previous post, "I too disagree with much of what he says because it is unconventional and seems irresponsible coming from a man who has realized God."

What you have stated in regards to the story about covering his head is simply your guesswork and opinion, just as it is mine when i speak from a prespective different from the one you took. Just as i originally posted when this thread was first created, There is no way for us to Truely know what his intentions were. If you feel that with whatever recorded text you have is enough for you to deem him heretic or bad or whatever, then i suppose it is for you. I on the other hand will not jump to labeling anyone anything until i fully understand their intentions. Which in this case no one will ever know. Perhaps you are right he said it just to create an arguement. He himself has said many times he enjoyed arugying with other or perhaps he said it just to show how quickly can people turn one into their Guru and if by few words when they are offended they turn to kill him. Your guess is just as good as mine. The only difference is i leave the window open to learn more about him while i assume you have already closed the case on him. Perhaps i will come to the point where you are and see what you see of him, perhaps i will not.

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Also Ronal Reagan wanted to impose christianity education in all schools so if somebody insulted him and went against him

he must be a man of guts.

Osho insulted him because he called regan a fool for asking people for votes.

2.The statement "God cannot be found in books." is not very insulting veere.

Just see in the Guru Grath Sahib itself and it is mentioned so many placed that God can not be found in books or even any education.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a book. Gurbani is a living Guru. By calling our Guru “a book” he showed his ignorance just like Ravinder Naath Taigore.

3.Also the statement "One time he showed up in Darbar Sahib and refused to cover his head " is a significant statement.

If God is everywhere why should not we cover head everywhere.

When Pehli patshahi went to Makka he put his feet towards Macca and it was not a insult to Macca but a reminder to

people who were engaed in rituals that dont get obsessed with places.Rise above.

so that is how i feel veere,if you disagree please let me know

This has been answered already by other Sikhs. Covering head is a sign of respect and does not imply that God is in only one direction. Besides, an atheist person like osho can NEVER be compared to Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

5."He believed that the only way to control mind is to do everything it wants"

In our village a BabaJi used to tell a story that a man went to a real Guru and asked for Naam.

Guru gave him a mantra and blessed him and asked to go and read the mantra.

But the new disciple insisted that he should be given a 'rehatnaama' or not-to-do things.

Guru said to him that He does not give these type of things but disciple insisted that he wanted to know what he should not do.

When he continued to insist Guru asked him not to think about monkey while doing simran so new disciple got happy and went to home.

After few days disciple came back crying and said that he can not get rid of monkey and all the time when he does simran/Monkey does not leave him.

So Guru told him piarea,More we forbid a thing more it haunts us so best thing to avoid a thing is to ignore it.

Rehatnamas are our guidelines. Without any rules and regulations nothing would work. No matter what class or university you enroll in you are to obey the rules and policies. The story he shared cannot be of a Sikh. Guru Ji taught us not to ignore bad things but to fight bad things. I can list many things that will never be ignored by an ordinary person let alone a Sikh.

So in our society we keep on repressing our children and teaching them anti-sex and i have seen the even old men in buses do all type of naughty things.

I think becuase we have forbidden sex,so it reached to our head and spoiled our psychological system.

So the best thing to do is not to educate our kids about HIV and AIDS otherwise they might get exposed to it?

6."Guru Ji believed in controlling the five thieves by doing Naam Jap because mind never gets tired"

Veere i am trying hard to control kaam,but i could not do until now and i am doing full nitname evryday and when i look at women,i always keep on looking

at only certain parts of woman body and i could not control up now and i am still thinking about money and being in Canada and

America i think about money even more

Please tell me what shoud i DO? I feel if i could have seen some girl firiends when i was in 20s may be i could have got tired

and because i never got oppurtunities enough,i can only dream now and it is so difficult to get rid of dreams because they come only when you are absent.

You tell me Bijla Veere, what should i do??

By engaging in sexual activities you will only destroy yourself. Your mind will never get tired of it. Naam Simran is the only cure for this. There are numerous ways which have been posted before by others. Do a search on it. If we follow osho’s way of letting the mind do whatever it wants then there will be no need for courts and judicial system. Criminal minds like Hitler would want to kill more jews, rapists will rape more and people like indira would want to annihilate other minorities but never get tired of it.

Also you referred "Read Bhai Jang Singh Gyani's work on Osho"

Veere i read so many books from scholars before and i know have decided not to even

read any book from anybody who has name 'Giani','Dr.','professor' wth their names

I hate these egoistic and pakhandi people.sorry!

Do those scholars not have PhDs? Are they not professors? You may not want to read it but at least let go off osho type attitude and stop being so judgmental. At least understand the person first before passing on a judgement. This is what osho used to do. Not everyone with “gyani” or “professor” title is an egomaniac. In fact it was osho who had so much hankaar of his “knowledge”.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Post Edited - You may wish to follow whoever you want but this is a Sikh forum. All discussions/topics/posts against the principles of Sikhi are not allowed. Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Jot of Ten Gurus) is the last living Guru of Sikhs forever.

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Dont u think that we are being baised here and goin completely against the gurmat by not letting ppl say what they want to say and say it with 'sincereness' "Sabho Ko meet hum Aapan keena" and 'Na Koi baeri nahi begana and so on and so forth...

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Dont u think that we are being baised here and goin completely against the gurmat by not letting ppl say what they want to say

Freedom of speech is always limited. He has no right to write anything against the principles of Sikhi and Sikh Gurus. He called osho the "11th guru". Since this is a Sikh forum such comments are not allowed. Discuss Gurmat not manmat.

Sabho Ko meet hum Aapan keena" and 'Na Koi baeri nahi begana and so on and so forth...

No one called him an enemy so don't twist anything around. on Sikh forum anti-Sikhi posts are not allowed.

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