I hate this guy:

[N30S1NGH]

namstang, you really like filtering out peoples comments and just paying attention to the stuff you want to pay attention to.

You seem to be forgetting the Bijla Singh gave a story of his maama to show that baba wearing "Singhs" were really working for police

137222[/snapback]

1 case does not make obvious cases. If that seems to be case, then there wouldn't any sikhs trusting bana wearin sikhs.

anyway sorry for being topic.

Do continue the debate sangat ji.

[Barik]

Osho is mere a lie and Dri Guru Granth Sahib is an ultimate truth, that will never ever change.

[JagoBhai]

Piario! Te Guru Roopi Sangat Jio

Meri Dubidha hal kar dio Ji

I posted this question previously also in a number of other places and discussed with our Sikh wise men and scholars and still I am in Dubidha.

My real problem is that I want to be faithful to Sikh religion but at the same time, Being educated and rational minded,can not ignore the volumes of wisdom of Osho Ji.

I tried and failed. It keep me haunting always.

Another problem of my is that I immediately feel sleepy

when I read Gurbani.

Although I fully respect it but what can I Do?.

To be honest with you bros. ,when I don’t feel sleepy,I start reading some gutka!

Sorry for that but that is how bad I am! I feel guilty of it sometime but I could not come out of it inspite all my efforts.

I need some interesting and essay type of religious things/articles to read and I started reading a number of Sikh magazines and they mix so much Gurbani lines in the material/articles that it becomes boring and complicated for me again.

And moreover most of the views in these magazines are presented by very orthodox and katur type of people and I hate those type of people . They have no sense of humour. They are useless for me.

That is not my ‘kheer’.

So Sangat Jio! Problem is that still physically/mentally I am a Sikh but I don’t see any future of growth in me if I remained like this for ever. What should I do bro???? I want to seek more and experience some mysteries of life when alive .

I am not interested after death life at all .No!. I want something for NOW

Now I gonna meet my friend tonight . We had quite much discussion on phone and he suggested better I visit Punj Piares and get advice from them . There is a Gurdwara near my friends home and I went there few times . There I saw a number of good full bana Sikhs . All of theirs faces look cheerful,blissful,glowing and happy and sincere . So I am sure they can not be some Katur type of Sikhs because I know katur type of Sikhs mosly look like rotten apple and angry always and with no tolerence or patience . Punj Piare at this gurdware will surely listen to me sympathetically and will reach a decision which will be rational and justified but not only emotional.

So I will prefer to go there and get advice because I want to resolve this Dubidha in me as soon as possible otherwise it will keep me disturbing all my life.

If we went their tonight I will let you know what happened .I called Gurdwara and they said not many people are going their tonighrt and we can site and discuss with them our dubidha for whatever time we needed. I have compiled all the views presented here and a number of other forums/places and from some scholars in brief and will preset all honestly to Punj Piares.Also I would like here in this thread Kharkoo bhai,prem bhai,biki veer,teg,snister and all others to present final views in few lines if you have any and I will carry all that tonight to Guru Rupi Punj Piares .

As Punj Piares is from of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj to me and I respect them to my heart and whatver decision they will take,I will obey that for ever.

Thanks for those who tried to help me in whatsoever way they could and I am grateful to all you folks.

I discussed this problem atleast 10 times in last 2 years with different mediums and always hd to leave left in between . I think this forum is best upto now and I never got quick response from any other place as here so feel in the company of people like you bros, and sangat, will be able to come out my dubidha for ever.

Bhul Chuk Maaf karna Ji

Aap Ji Da Daas

[Jai Tegang!]

listen "Jagobhai" aka "premkranti".... your not-so-subtle propaganda isn't going to work here, so save yourself the trouble.

Funny I don't find it hard to ignore the "volumes of wisdom of osho"

Hey Harpal, looks like "jagobhai" realized his little mistake..notice how he now puts spaces after his full stops..lol...

anyway, continue with the comedy "jagobhai".

[JagoBhai]

Teg Veer,Will you think beyond formatting or what editor I type in and will you think beyond your little mind.I am not on the side of prem veer or you or anybody else.

Anyway all your names/identity are fiction and I don’t even care about it.

To me what matter is the theme of debate .

To me what matter is the angle or view point.

No wonder prem bhai identified you much earlier and I now feel he was right.

I am not angry but want to remind you bro that keep concentrated on the subject and if you have different view,present it sincerely.

No fighting. We are here to make justice with subject not persons .

Aap Ji Da Dass

[Bijla Singh]

He insulted Guru Ji by saying "Guru Granth is only a book. God cannot be found in books." He was against covering the head when going to Gurdwara. One time he showed up in Darbar Sahib and refused to cover his head which according to him was "pakhand".

He preached to Sikhs that they shouldn't get up early in the morning to do Amrit Vela. He believed that the only way to control mind is to do everything it wants. He believed that if mind wants to have sex a person should do it and eventually mind will get tired of it. This is why his followers take drugs and engage in sexual activities openly. On the other hand, Guru Ji taught us to control the mind and never listen to it. Guru Ji believed in controlling the five thieves by doing Naam Jap because mind never gets tired. You can't put out fire by putting more wood in it. Guru Ji taught us to control the mind whereas he taught to submit yourself to your mind.

Ronald Regan was against osho because osho insulted him. Osho had married someone illegally to get a green card and not to mention how he covered himself up in jewelry and bought expensive cars. US government had enough cases against him to put him away for life. He was given the choice to leave the country which he did. Where ever he went he preached people to do whatever they want. Organization is the key for human survival. If we go with osho's philosophy there will be nothing but chaos. Sikhi has worked for 500 years and we don't need an atheist disguised as a "holy man" to tell us what to do. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

p.s. - Read Bhai Jang Singh Gyani's work on Osho.

[JagoBhai]

Thanks Bijla Veer.

1.Ronal Reagan was not a good man as he burnt Darwon books from libraries because Drawin has proposed

theory of evolotion which was against Chritianity.

Also Ronal Reagan wanted to impose christianity education in all schools so if somebody insulted him and went against him

he must be a man of guts.

2.The statement "God cannot be found in books." is not very insulting veere.

Just see in the Guru Grath Sahib itself and it is mentioned so many placed that God can not be found in books or even any education.

3.Also the statement "One time he showed up in Darbar Sahib and refused to cover his head " is a significant statement.

If God is everywhere why should not we cover head everywhere.

When Pehli patshahi went to Makka he put his feet towards Macca and it was not a insult to Macca but a reminder to

people who were engaed in rituals that dont get obsessed with places.Rise above.

so that is how i feel veere,if you disagree please let me know

4."He preached to Sikhs that they shouldn't get up early in the morning to do Amrit Vela"

I have seen a lot of people who get up early and feel proud of that they are doing great and

condemning people who get up late.I think we should sleep upto full and when our sleep get over,

we should get up and it is healthy to get up early but we should not make it a ritual

Still i would like to read this statement from some original source because i feel he many not

have made the above statement in general but may have addresses to a particular person in a particular conext.

So that is what i feel AND i am not saying who is right or who is wrong but presenting a view point

5."He believed that the only way to control mind is to do everything it wants"

In our village a BabaJi used to tell a story that a man went to a real Guru and asked for Naam.

Guru gave him a mantra and blessed him and asked to go and read the mantra.

But the new disciple insisted that he should be given a 'rehatnaama' or not-to-do things.

Guru said to him that He does not give these type of things but disciple insisted that he wanted to know what he should not do.

When he continued to insist Guru asked him not to think about monkey while doing simran so new disciple got happy and went to home.

After few days disciple came back crying and said that he can not get rid of monkey and all the time when he does simran/Monkey does not leave him.

So Guru told him piarea,More we forbid a thing more it haunts us so best thing to avoid a thing is to ignore it.

So in our society we keep on repressing our children and teaching them anti-sex and i have seen the even old men in buses do all type of naughty things.

I think becuase we have forbidden sex,so it reached to our head and spoiled our psychological system.

That is my point of view veere and tell me if you think otherwise and I am open to hear from you anyway.

6."Guru Ji believed in controlling the five thieves by doing Naam Jap because mind never gets tired"

Veere i am trying hard to control kaam,but i could not do until now and i am doing full nitname evryday and when i look at women,i always keep on looking

at only certain parts of woman body and i could not control up now and i am still thinking about money and being in Canada and

America i think about money even more

Please tell me what shoud i DO? I feel if i could have seen some girl firiends when i was in 20s may be i could have got tired

and because i never got oppurtunities enough,i can only dream now and it is so difficult to get rid of dreams because they come only when you are absent.

You tell me Bijla Veere, what should i do??

Your points were good buddy and respect your point of view.At least these were not sarcastic and i like

critical views not sarcastic.

So i appreciate these ones.

Also you referred "Read Bhai Jang Singh Gyani's work on Osho"

Veere i read so many books from scholars before and i know have decided not to even

read any book from anybody who has name 'Giani','Dr.','professor' wth their names

I hate these egoistic and pakhandi people.sorry!

AapJi Da Daas

[Pheena]

I just want to post the few related things about Sikhi he talks about in light, so people can read and conclude on what they read themselves rather than blindly going about him.

He insulted Guru Ji by saying "Guru Granth is only a book. God cannot be found in books."

He was against covering the head when going to Gurdwara. One time he showed up in Darbar Sahib and refused to cover his head which according to him was "pakhand".

I was invited to the Golden Temple at Amritsar. When I went they stopped me at the entrance saying I must cover my head before entering the place of God. I reminded them of the incident with Nanak at Kaaba and asked them, "Does it mean that right here where I stand with my head uncovered, there is no God, no temple?" We keep on repeating our mistakes. I further asked, "Then please show me a place where I can be without a head-covering. And don't you remove your turbans while bathing, and while sleeping? Then isn't that also an affront to the Lord?"

He preached to Sikhs that they shouldn't get up early in the morning to do Amrit Vela.

The wife of a Sikh gentleman once complained to me: "Things are getting out of control. My husband comes to see you, so please advise him."

"What is the matter?" I asked.

"He gets up at two in the morning and begins to recite the japuji. It is impossible for the rest of the family to sleep. If I complain he tells us that we should all get up and chant too! What should we do?"

I called the husband to me. "When do you recite the japuji?" I asked him.

"Early every morning, about two," he replied proudly.

"That is proving to be quite a nuisance to others," I said.

"That is their fault," he said. "They are lazy and indolent! -- they should all get up at that time. Besides, I'm doing them a service by reciting aloud so that the holy words can fall not only on the family's ears but the neighbor's as well."

"Take it easier with your practices," I advised him. "You can get up at four in the future." You have to bring down such a person by degrees, or else it is impossible to bring him down at all.

"Never!" he replied. "I never expected to hear such words from you. Do you want to rob me of my religion?" He couldn't believe his ears.

Now this was his arrogance -- that no one could recite the japuji like him. This alone is his obstacle. You may repeat the japuji all life long, but the real need is to destroy your arrogance.

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Yes, Pheenaji there are some who would go against Osho blindly but then there are also many who would follow Osho blindly even when he abuses our Gurus.

The only things that come across from your quotes is that they show how Osho was so arrogant that he thought he could emulate Guruji. The whole theory behind covering your head in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib is that you are in the physical presence of the Guru. You cover your head as a sign of respect. The Sakhi about Mecca is that the Muslims say that the Kaaba is God's house. So Guruji was saying that God is everywhere and not just in one place. When Sikhs uncover their hair at bathing they are not in the physical presence of the Guru Granth Sahib.

So Pheenaji, I assume that you are not Keshdhari, so will you be going into the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib without covering your head the next time you go to the Gurdwara. I doubt it, it's makes good reading but in the end you know Osho's story is just bukwas otherwise I would ask the the Osho chelas here to try and go inside a Gurdwara without covering your head. Let me know how you get on :TH:

It just goes to show what state Sikhi is in that a wife has to approach a person like Osho to advise her how to stop her husband from reciting Gurbani. That Gurbani which can release the soul from 84 lakh joon, the wife wants to be enjoy a few hours of sleep and the recitation of Gurbani is disturbing her sleep!! Just read and realise what the wife says to Osho

THINGS ARE GETTING OUT OF CONTROL!!

Is the husband drinking sharab and coming home and beating up his wife..er NO

Is the husband cheating on his wife with other women.. er NO

Is the husband gambling all his pay and leaving the family to starve...er NO

HE'S RECITING JAPJI SAHIB AND HIS RECITATION IS DISTURBING HER SLEEP..

The funny thing is that if Osho told her to recite loudly his books all day she would probably do that without a thought for anyone else but having to listen to Gurbani at Amrit vela disturbs her!

And the funniest thing is that some people on here read such gibberish stories of Osho and think that they are getting some unique spiritual insight or realising some sublime truth!!

[Pheena]

Yes, Pheenaji there are some who would go against Osho blindly but then there are also many who would follow Osho blindly even when he abuses our Gurus.

The only things that come across from your quotes is that they show how Osho was so arrogant that he thought he could emulate Guruji. The whole theory behind covering your head in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib is that you are in the physical presence of the Guru. You cover your head as a sign of respect. The Sakhi about Mecca is that the Muslims say that the Kaaba is God's house. So Guruji was saying that God is everywhere and not just in one place. When Sikhs uncover their hair at bathing they are not in the physical presence of the Guru Granth Sahib.

True veer ji But according to the quote the respond by that person to Osho was that he was entering the house of God not the Guru. I belive that to be the reason why he responded in such a manner. If that person had been more clear that it is a sign of Respect as ordained by our Gurus then i do not think we'd be discussin it today.

So Pheenaji, I assume that you are not Keshdhari, so will you be going into the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib without covering your head the next time you go to the Gurdwara. I doubt it, it's makes good reading but in the end you know Osho's story is just bukwas otherwise I would ask the the Osho chelas here to try and go inside a Gurdwara without covering your head. Let me know how you get on  :TH:

Your assumption is correct veer, but im not Osho :lol:

It just goes to show what state Sikhi is in that a wife has to approach a person like Osho to advise her how to stop her husband from reciting Gurbani. That Gurbani which can release the soul from 84 lakh joon, the wife wants to be enjoy a few hours of sleep and the recitation of Gurbani is disturbing her sleep!! Just read and realise what the wife says to Osho

THINGS ARE GETTING OUT OF CONTROL!!

Is the husband drinking sharab and coming home and beating up his wife..er NO

Is the husband cheating on his wife with other women.. er NO

Is the husband gambling all his pay and leaving the family to starve...er NO

HE'S RECITING JAPJI SAHIB AND HIS RECITATION IS DISTURBING HER SLEEP..

The funny thing is that if Osho told her to recite loudly his books all day she would probably do that without a thought for anyone else but having to listen to Gurbani at Amrit vela disturbs her!

That is definelty one way of looking at the dialog, but also be aware of the arrogance of the man as noted by osho. Why couldn't he do it at 4am? It is still Amritvela right? It was not as he was trying to stop him, but it seems osho saw his arrogance and pride that he awakens at 2am to do padth. Which is apparent in his shocking response when osho said he should awaken at 4 instead of 2. His pride was hurt, he was expecting a 'shabashay' but instead he was told otherwise. Could he not be so considerate of his family who are obviously not as religious and dedicated as he is. Trying to inforce religion by waking at 2am and reciting loudly will surely not get them to be dharmic instead it will push them away as it pushed away his wife.

Now when i went to india, there is a Gurudwara right next to our house, everyday the Granthi would turn on the loudspeaker at 4:30am and read the hukamnama, personally it was heaven for me, as what more could i ask for than to hear the words of the Guru to awaken me. Then there were those who complained that what is the need and there are 2 Gurudwara within a radius of 300 yards and there is a competition amongst them of who will be louder and first to begin the path.

Now before you think i am defending Osho, I too disagree with much of what he says because it is unconventional and seems irresponsible coming from a man who has realized God. But then again he never claimed to be someone who nurtures the feeling of others. He said what he wanted to say. If you read his earlier work there was much more depth and sacredness in his words, his later work became more controversial. Im not trying to influence other to like him, nor dis-like him, I just think people should just decide for themselves.

This is from his own words:

I am not creating any religion. It is only a religiousness, a diffused kind of religiousness, not very tangible. You cannot make a creed out of it, you cannot make a church out of it—impossible! I am not leaving a single Bible or Koran or Gita so you can make a church out of it. When I will leave the world I will leave at least one thousand books, so contradictory to each other that anybody trying to make out any dogma out of them will go crazy. It is impossible to make any dogma out of my ideas, but you can transform your being through them. ggate210

I have been constantly inconsistent so that you will never be able to make a dogma out of me. You will simply go nuts if you try. I am leaving something really terrible for scholars. They will not be able to make any sense out of it. They will go nuts; and they deserve it, they should go nuts. But nobody can create an orthodoxy out of me, it is impossible….From my words you can get burned, but you will not be able to find any kind of theology, dogmatism. You can find a way to live but not a dogma to preach. You can find a rebellious quality to be imbibed, but you will not find a revolutionary theme to be organized.

My words are not only on fire. I am putting gunpowder also here and there, which will go on exploding for centuries. I am putting more than needed—I never take any chances. Almost each sentence is going to create trouble for anybody who wants to organize a religion around me.  Yes, you can have a loose community, a commune. Remember the word loose: everybody independent, everybody free to live his own way, to interpret me in his own way, to find whatsoever he wants to find.  He can find the way he wants to live—and everybody unto himself.  There is no need for somebody to decide what my religion is. I am leaving it open-ended. You can work out a definition for yourself, but it is only for yourself; and that too you will have to continuously change.  As you understand me more and more, you will have to change it. You cannot go on holding it like a dead thing in your hand. You will have to change it, and it will go on changing you simultaneously. person08

Do you want me to say that I bring you the last message? I am not going to say it. I am not going to be in the company of all these fools who have been trying somehow to make their religion look bigger, higher, truer. I say to you that I am not bringing anybody's message—because there is nobody! I want you to understand that I am simply trying to share my experience with you. It is always fresh, always young; it

is always in the now, in the here. That is a fundamental quality of truth.  And I'm not saying that after me there will be nobody who will experience it. On the contrary, I am saying to you that if you understand me, there are going to be millions of people after me who will go on and on and on discovering more and more. Even if they have to contradict me, don't bother about it—let them contradict. Who am I? I am not closing the doors. I am not putting a lock on the door and taking the keys with me. My house is without doors. It is open from everywhere—and I want it to remain always open.

Naturally, people who will be coming will make new arrangements of the furniture in the house. They may plan a new architecture for the house, they may make new plans for the garden. I leave it to them, but the process will be the same. false21

One of the most important things to be remembered by all is the way you have started your question. The question is, "I have heard You say." Usually, people drop the first part. They simply say, "You have said this." And there is such a great difference between the two, such an immense difference that it is unbridgeable, and needs a great understanding. Whatever you hear is not necessarily the thing said; what is said is not necessarily what you hear. The obvious reason is that I am speaking from a different space of being, and you are hearing from a totally different space. In the transmission, many things change. It is always a sign of understanding to remember that whatever I have said may be totally different than what you have heard. Your question should be about what you have heard, because how can you ask a question about something which you have not heard?