Question

[humble_kaur]

Fateh,

I was having this discussion with a few people, and I still have come to the same conclusion, that if Guru Ji practiced polygamy as you say, then why did they not include it in their teachings? We also discussed that if Guru Ji emphasized equality among men and women, then the same would apply for women. If it was ok for a man to practice polygamy, then by equal standards, so should a woman. Why should a woman remain married to one man if she can have multiples? I know how a man would feel, if this was the case, how do you think a woman would feel to share her husband, her soul mate? I wouldn't tolerate it.

What I found quite amusing is the fact that many of you have read up on the lives of Guru Ji, what He did as a human. But how many of you actually read and try to understand Gurbani, and incorporate it into your lives? Here on this youth forum, that is viewed by many, instead of talking about the gyaan that the Guru Ji's obtained and carried throughout their life, we are talking about their human life. Instead of focusing and educating the youth about Sikhi Jeevan, to experience it, we are focusing on minute things.

Once again, I encourage everyone of you to read, understand, and implement Shabad Guru into your lives. Without the understanding and experiencing, you will always remain ignorant toward the Truth.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[amarjeet_singh_1699]

right, to get back on topic. if u call yourself a khalsa you obviuosly shoudnt date, and to the stupidest reply of "attachment is great", no its not

"eh kutanb too je dekhda chalai nahi terai nalai

saath terai chalai nahi tis naal kio chit laieeai"

when we become brahmgyani we finally destroy our 5 vices, until them we should always be fighting against them, going out with someone is kaam, u may be too blind too see that and covr it up with "oh no, its love, true love" but the only true love there is is that with vaheguru.

[niirbhau]

Applies to both males and females

qrux qyju pr iqRA muKu johih sru Apsru n pCwixAw ]tharun thaej par thria mukh johehi sar apasar n pashhaaniaa ||

In the heat of youthful passion, you look with desire upon the faces of other men's wives; you do not distinguish between good and evil.

Bhagat Beni Ji

Siree Raag

93

jYsw sMgu ibsIAr isau hY ry qYso hI iehu pr igRhu ]2]

jaisaa sa(n)g biseear sio hai rae thaiso hee eihu par grihu ||2||

But, like the companionship of a poisonous snake, so is the desire for another's spouse. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev Ji

Raag Aasaa

403

kwmvMq kwmI bhu nwrI pr igRh joh n cUkY ]

kaamava(n)th kaamee bahu naaree par grih joh n chookai ||

The lustful, lecherous man desires many women, and he never stops peeking into the homes of others.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji

Raag Dhanaasree

672

iesqRI qij kir kwim ivAwipAw icqu lwieAw pr nwrI ]

eisathree thaj kar kaam viaapiaa chith laaeiaa par naaree ||

Abandoning his own wife, he is engrossed in sexual desire; his thoughts are on the wives of others.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Raag Maaroo

1013

Awp pr kw kCu n jwnY kwm k®oDih jwir ]1]

aap par kaa kashh n jaanai kaam krodhhehi jaar ||1||

He does not know what belongs to him, and to others. He burns in sexual desire and anger. ||1||

So our guru sahib says to control our minds and NOT think about free sex

[dreamman]

MY views are to your sister who started this thread.....

first of all be sure of your feelings, coz i have seen people these days jst loosing everything in infetuations.... and everybody is kinda flirty and jst wanted to get laid especially in western countries...

having love is not a wrong thing nor going in relation with anybody. But the thing is u both should be in true love to each other.... true love is far more above holding hand and going out together.... if u really like some person go talk with ur family and let them know your feelings and try to convince them why u want to go with this fellow. my personal belief is do what u want in life esecially love but the love should be pure frm both sides otherwise there is no question of love...

best wishes for u for ur love and happy future

fateh

[dreamman]

Jst a simple scientific fact about polygamy.... scientists proved that persons involved in this lives less life that person having relation with one girl... so if u want to live life to large extent then be faithful to ur single love....

fateh

[dreamman]

Kharkoo veer I totally agree with your views and replies as they are very strong and holds gurbani examples.... you know what I feel with few of my brothers here that they dont understand the true meaning of Guru, Shabad, Gurbani.... they jst take it casually as Guru being a person (like we read in newspapers, news etc), shabad as word (like any word) and gurbani compilation of those words... this is what some people take it as and starts discussing on it with materialistic examples and never ever tried to give a gurbani example in favour of it.... i am highly enlighted by kharkoo veer responses and now there is a feeling in me to learn my religion to depth, despite being my all busy schedueles and research work....

thanks kharkoo veer for such a good replies...i really like reading it...

Fateh

[Sinister]

To Kharkoo;

" As to why only male vessels were used and not female is irrelevent to the essence of Sikhi."

NOPE-- shanty unreasonable shots like that wont hold much truth.

The sikh guru's were male for a reason!

The Guru Gaddi was kept "in the family" after the 5th guru for a reason as well!

watever way we look at it, theres something going on? whether we have any right to investigate is irrelavant! (AN AGREEMENT WITH HUMBLE KAUR) and I will drop such questioning. Kharkoo you are probably the most rational sikh on this forum and I do show gratitude.

I will agree with this,

"THE GURU WAS NOT THE BODY BUT THE GYAAN WITHIN THAT BODY."

BINGO

But was this gyaan coming from god? why did god need 10 "vessels" (and an 11th) to complete the message?

I veiw the guru's as men though (great ones....but men nonetheless) (this jyot thing that you spend time in explaining I personally find offensive....because each guru did have a characteristic personality); Our guru's were social and political scientists.....masters of the art of hypotheical/observative sciences. With all these traits, they developed a message....this message is what I hold in High regard as 'divine, sacred and truthful'.

To mystify the guru's into something as 'the same incarnation one after the other'...well i dunno....but that doesnt fit into my beleif system (not now or probably ever will).

So this gyan did exist in our guru's BUT they did not pass the same gyan over to next guru.....why

WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF REPEATING THE SAME MESSAGE 10 TIMES?

EVERY GURU CONTRIBUTED SEPARATELY TO THE GROWTH OF SIKHI...SOME LESS, SOME MORE?....MAYBE?

BUT ALL OF THEM IMPORTANT IN THE SAME RESPECT!

"ALL OF THEM DIVINELY INFLUENCED BY WISDOM"

"ALL OF THEM INFLUENCED BY SOCIETY" (to some extent...of course)

They probably adjusted there ways to deal with us, after all humanity was the audience and had to buy the message if the gurus where in search of change!

'enchanting' and mystifying the identity/existence of the guru's will kinda harm it, to the point of disbelief (my belief)

I agree you do have better faith than me.......lets keep it that way, this way the the site gets some rational characteristic explaining sikhi as well.

regards,

sinister

[Kharkoo4Life]

To Sinister,

As always thanks for your replies. Though at times many (including myself) may feel that your questions are indicative of one more concerned with the actual process of debate rather then the final conclusions of that debate i do still welcome your questions.

Again i will have to reiterate that you seem to contradict yourself on many points. You start off by saying that "sikhs guru's were male for a reason" but then later on agree with me that the Guru was not the body but the gyaan within that body. The two statements cannot coeixst. EIther you accept the Guru to exist only in the form of gyaan or you can make the Guru out to be a gender specific human being.

With regards to the comment that guru gaddi was kept "in the family" Guru Nanak made it 100% CLEAR right from start that the guru gaddi was not like other earthly seats of authority/power which one gained thru birthright. The guru gaddi WAS ALWAYS PASSED ONTO THE NEXT BASED SOLELY ON MERIT.

Why did the first four gurus not choose their own children as succesors? And if you want to highlight this distinguishing factor from the 5th guru onwards then are you implying that the latter 5 gurus had some alterior motives or were overcoem with some sense of familial pride that they wished to retain the guru gaddi within their immediate family?

The reason for this is that none of the children of the first four gurus proved themselves qualified and worthy of being successors. That is why all those gurus went AGAINST THE PREVAILING CUSTOMS oF THAT TIME and did not just pass it on their sons simply cuz they were their sons. They observed and tested who was the appropriate suitable candidate and passed the torch on to them. With regards to the latter 5 gurus, the guru gaddhi staying "within the family" is not a factor of anythin based on any sort of familial obligations rather if any son gained the gurgadhi it was because they wre the most qualified.

When Guru Har Rai passed on the gurgudhi if he was concerned solely with keepin it in the fmaily he would have chosen his eldest son Ram Rai who was much older as well as physically capable then the much younger Harkrishan. But he didnt. Ram Rai though a brilliant and highly spiritual man had shown the slightest bit of ego and detraction from complete submissiveness and obedience to the Guru and thus was rejected.

As for the comments about whre was this gyaan coming from and why the need for 10 vessels. Well this topic is much deeper one and would require extensive discussion and elabortaion of gurbani to truly understand it. Trying to summarize it in a few words will likely leave you disatisfied but it is the best i can do on a limited forum. In a nutshell gyaan is guru is god. Now you may quickly jump and say how is the guru our god? Or how can gyaan be our god? Well to understand this u must realize that God is omnipresent, i.e. everywhere at all times. He is observed and experienced thru the countless myriad of ways he manifests himself thru his creation. AMongst the most supreme and primal of these manifestations is that of His Word, i.e. His Gyaan. The gyaan we speak of is not jus religoius knowledge, or wordly knolwedge rather it is understanding of god himself. And to fully understand God one must be completley one with him. Thus when the gurus came to vibrate in complete harmony with God they completely understood Him, i.e. attained that gyaan of Him. This gyaan was not some intellectual wisdom that God magicaly imparted to a chosen few and kept hidden from the rest. Rather this gyaan has been present since the begining of time. This gyaan is a representaion of the qualities, virtues of God. All are able to see it but few every reach that state. And ones who do, they are known as guru.

As for why 10 vessels were needed i cannot rightfully answer this. But on simple terms, for the formation of any nation, for any mass revolution to take place, it can never happen over night. Many years usually pass before the initial roots of that revolution finaly bear fruit. In the case of Sikhi, the revoloution was against a mindset and society which had been established over thousands of years. To changed somethin so firmly etched in every being both in thought and actions required an effort of magestic proportion. The goal was not merely to awaken people and get them to question themselves. Rather the goal was to completely transorm the psyche of the average man to the same level as that of the guru. Thus was the reason that 10 vessels were needed to accomplish this monumental task.

Now the gyaan that was "passed on" was infact tHE EXACT SAME in each guru. If the gyaan of one guru was even slighly different from another than that would imply that the gyaan of one those gurus was incomplete. If one had certain gyaan and the other had slighlty different variant of that gyaan then how can that gyaan be considred to be complete in each case? But it was. For the gyaan as i stated earlier was a REALIZATION OF GOD, and to whomever this realization occurs (be they our sikh gurus, earlier prophets of other religions) it is ALWAYS THE SAME. That is why Guru ARjan when compiling the Guru Granth Sahib did not hesitate to include the gyaan expereienced by other bhagats of different origins much before him because he knew that the gyaan they had possesed was the exact same as that of Guru Nanak and each succedding guru after him.

I agree with you completely that the Guru were men just as you as me. They lived, ate, worked just like any ordinary man did. And to creaty some sense of magical mysticism around them and making them out to be some sort of magicians or wizards is completley wrong. In fact, the whole message of the Gurus was that ANY MAN/WOMAN cud achieve the same spiritual heights as that of the guru. That is why they worked so hard to help the common man. That is why we hear unimaginable feats of bravery, wisdom and strength taking place in men and women of that time who were previously regarded as even less than human. The gurus proved that any man/woman on this planet was capable of reaching the same lofty heights as them and attain that same gyaan as them. And to help each person walk down that path and hopefully one day reach that same status they left behind the treasures of that gyaan in the form of Guru Granth Sahib.

Lastly, i respect your candid honestly in that i have more faith in the Guru/GOd and that you may still be more of an eager skeptic on the first few steps of this path. And i agree that this seemingly opposing frame of mind and level of faith that we all have to some degree is a valuable asset to this forum for it shows that every person is at different stages in their lives. And this forum should not be directed solely to people at a specific stage but rather remain more open so that even the most unfamiliar and ignorant of people can gain as much insight and appreciation of Sikhi as the most advanced. We should all work together to stimulate the growth of each others knowledge and understanding and in light of this i respect on hold great regard for your efforts.

[DivineJourney]

To Sinister,

As always thanks for your replies.  Though at times many (including myself) may feel that your questions are indicative of one more concerned with the actual process of debate rather then the final conclusions of that debate i do still welcome your questions.

Again i will have to reiterate that  you seem to contradict yourself on many points.  You start off by saying that "sikhs guru's were male for a reason" but then later on agree with me that the Guru was not the body but the gyaan within that body.  The two statements cannot coeixst.  EIther you accept the Guru to exist only in the form of gyaan or you can make the Guru out to be a gender specific human being.

With regards to the comment that guru gaddi was kept "in the family" Guru Nanak made it 100% CLEAR right from start that the guru gaddi was not like other earthly seats of authority/power which one gained thru birthright.  The guru gaddi WAS ALWAYS PASSED ONTO THE NEXT BASED SOLELY ON MERIT.

Why did the first four gurus not choose their own children as succesors?  And if you want to highlight this distinguishing factor from the 5th guru onwards then are you implying that the latter 5 gurus had some alterior motives or were overcoem with some sense of familial pride that they wished to retain the guru gaddi within their immediate family?

The reason for this is that none of the children of the first four gurus proved themselves qualified and worthy of being successors.  That is why all those gurus went AGAINST THE PREVAILING CUSTOMS oF THAT TIME and did not just pass it on their sons simply cuz they were their sons.  They observed and tested who was the appropriate suitable candidate and passed the torch on to them.  With regards to the latter 5 gurus, the guru gaddhi staying "within the family" is not a factor of anythin based on any sort of familial obligations rather if any son gained the gurgadhi it was because they wre the most qualified.

When Guru Har Rai passed on the gurgudhi if he was concerned solely with keepin it in the fmaily he would have chosen his eldest son Ram Rai who was much older as well as physically capable then the much younger Harkrishan.  But he didnt.  Ram Rai though a brilliant and highly spiritual man had shown the slightest bit of ego and detraction from complete submissiveness and obedience to the Guru and thus was rejected.

As for the comments about whre was this gyaan coming from and why the need for 10 vessels.  Well this topic is much deeper one and would require extensive discussion and elabortaion of gurbani to truly understand it.  Trying to summarize it in a few words will likely leave you disatisfied but it is the best i can do on a limited forum.  In a nutshell gyaan is guru is god.  Now you may quickly jump and say how is the guru our god?  Or how can gyaan be our god?  Well to understand this u must realize that God is omnipresent, i.e. everywhere at all times.  He is observed and experienced thru the countless myriad of ways he manifests himself thru his creation.  AMongst the most supreme and primal of these manifestations is that of His Word, i.e. His Gyaan.  The gyaan we speak of is not jus religoius knowledge, or wordly knolwedge rather it is understanding of god himself.  And to fully understand God one must be completley one with him.  Thus when the gurus came to vibrate in complete harmony with God they completely understood Him, i.e. attained that gyaan of Him.  This gyaan was not some intellectual wisdom that God magicaly imparted to a chosen few and kept hidden from the rest.  Rather this gyaan has been present since the begining of time.  This gyaan is a representaion of the qualities, virtues of God.  All are able to see it but few every reach that state.  And ones who do, they are known as guru.

As for why 10 vessels were needed i cannot rightfully answer this.  But on simple terms, for the formation of any nation, for any mass revolution to take place, it can never happen over night.  Many years usually pass before the initial roots of that revolution finaly bear fruit.  In the case of Sikhi, the revoloution was against a mindset and society which had been established over thousands of years.  To changed somethin so firmly etched in every being both in thought and actions required an effort of magestic proportion.  The goal was not merely to awaken people and get them to question themselves.  Rather the goal was to completely transorm the psyche of the average man to the same level as that of the guru.  Thus was the reason that 10 vessels were needed to accomplish this monumental task.

Now the gyaan that was "passed on" was infact tHE EXACT SAME in each guru.  If the gyaan of one guru was even slighly different from another than that would imply that the gyaan of one those gurus was incomplete.  If one had certain gyaan and the other had slighlty different variant of that gyaan then how can that gyaan be considred to be complete in each case?  But it was.  For the gyaan as i stated earlier was a REALIZATION OF GOD, and to whomever this realization occurs (be they our sikh gurus, earlier prophets of other religions) it is ALWAYS THE SAME.  That is why Guru ARjan when compiling the Guru Granth Sahib did not hesitate to include the gyaan expereienced by other bhagats of different origins much before him because he knew that the gyaan they had possesed was the exact same as that of Guru Nanak and each succedding guru after him.

I agree with you completely that the Guru were men just as you as me.  They lived, ate, worked just like any ordinary man did.  And to creaty some sense of magical mysticism around them and making them out to be some sort of magicians or wizards is completley wrong.  In fact, the whole message of the Gurus was that ANY MAN/WOMAN cud achieve the same spiritual heights as that of the guru.  That is why they worked so hard to help the common man. That is why we hear unimaginable feats of bravery, wisdom and strength taking place in men and women of that time who were previously regarded as even less than human.  The gurus proved that any man/woman on this planet was capable of reaching the same lofty heights as them and attain that same gyaan as them.  And to help each person walk down that path and hopefully one day reach that same status they left behind the treasures of that gyaan in the form of Guru Granth Sahib.

Lastly, i respect your candid honestly in that i have more faith in the Guru/GOd and that you may still be more of an eager skeptic on the first few steps of this path.  And i agree that this seemingly opposing frame of mind and level of faith that we all have to some degree is a valuable asset to this forum for it shows that every person is at different stages in their lives.  And this forum should not be directed solely to people at a specific stage but rather remain more open so that even the most unfamiliar and ignorant of people can gain as much insight and appreciation of Sikhi as the most advanced.  We should all work together to stimulate the growth of each others knowledge and understanding and in light of this i respect on hold great regard for your efforts.

137635[/snapback]

Great Post paji... :lol:

[Sinister]

That was a really good reply, thanks