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Spirits, Curses And Superstitions

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who puts the curse on me????

*is it so hard to believe that people would do such a thing...you live a sheltered life in Canada, in Africa and Asia withcraft is an everyday thing.*

Life in North America is not as sheltered as you would think. Witchcraft (Paganism) is alive and well here as a religion. I know this. I practiced Wicca (Western European-based witchcraft) before converting to Sikhi. Voodoo and Santeria are new-world pagan traditions that came over from Africa, but over the years have become almost as American as apple pie. I'm sure that our Canadian friend knows that witch traditions exist here too.

Evil spirits, curses etc are just catch-all names given to the natural fears and baser emotions of a human being. I'm not afraid of ghosts. The dead can't hurt me; the living who can do me harm, those are the ones who make me nervous. And yes, Ardaas and Simran are the best of cures for those fears and emotions.

Blessed be,

Polska

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no one is saying you should be afriad.

the question was 'do bhoot, pret, dark magic etc exist' the answer is yes.

the dead cant harm you coz youre a nitnemi child of the Guru.

But what about other people?

And not only bhoot/pret, but also evil spirits, just like there are good and bad people there are good and bad spirits - e.g. in voodoo some use it to communicate with good spirits and ask for help with whatever, others use it to communicate with spirits in order to attack others people.

There are plenty of records of these things, people regularly see it happen, Guru Sahib has given us a huge gift in the transcriptions and recordings from suleman - there are plenty of people alive that have seen suleman - he did after all live at Rara Sahib for almost a year.

The world around is made of maya ie consists of 5 elements, all the realms consisting of fewer elements cannot be seen by your average human being.

Calling references to bhoot, pret, jinn, etc 'metaphors' is taking the easy way out.

Suleman said pret are attracted to meat and alcohol, and what do voodoo priests off to the spirits? - blood and alcohol.

As for randip singh's posts - the fisrt is ad hominem, the second fails to answer the question.

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no one is saying you should be afriad.

the question was 'do bhoot, pret, dark magic etc exist' the answer is yes.

(snip)

The world around is made of maya ie consists of 5 elements, all the realms consisting of fewer elements cannot be seen by your average human being.

Calling references to bhoot, pret, jinn, etc 'metaphors' is taking the easy way out.

(another snip)

You've got to excuse me, please! I know what jinn are but I don't have good enough Panjabi and don't know what bhoot and pret refer to.

I'm not saying that a curse or evil spell is a metaphor. A lot of times our own belief in something is its own curse. In American tradition a person who is afraid of ghosts will cross the street if walking past a cemetery and whistle to distract the spirits they believe haunt such places. A little superstition like this just gives birth to more: charms, candles, spells etc to keep the ghouls away.

By the same token the belief can be to the good. Carl Jung once said that magic is a valid form of self-psychotherapy (to our good moderators, this is *not* an endorsement of spellcraft!) If we are ill and believe in our healing, it is positive thought and can only help us to heal. This doesn't mean we should toss our physicians aside, I only mean to say that curses or blessings are only as strong as we believe them to be. And no, I disagree that it's an easy way out. It's far easier to think negatively on something than positively.

I come originally from a Christian background where there are many stories taught of the healings Jesus performed. In the Bible there are references to people who are possessed of evil spirits; the symptoms recorded are closer to epilepsy or schizophrenia than demonic possession. This is one of the reasons I'm inclined to say that what most people call a curse or a possession is explained by science, yet can be helped with prayer and attitude adjustment.

Blessed be,

Polska

Just my 2 cents

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no one is saying you should be afriad.

the question was 'do bhoot, pret, dark magic etc exist' the answer is yes.

the dead cant harm you coz youre a nitnemi child of the Guru.

But what about other people?

And not only bhoot/pret, but also evil spirits, just like there are good and bad people there are good and bad spirits - e.g. in voodoo some use it to communicate with good spirits and ask for help with whatever, others use it to communicate with spirits in order to attack others people.

There are plenty of records of these things, people regularly see it happen, Guru Sahib has given us a huge gift in the transcriptions and recordings from suleman - there are plenty of people alive that have seen suleman - he did after all live at Rara Sahib for almost a year.

The world around is made of maya ie consists of 5 elements, all the realms consisting of fewer elements cannot be seen by your average human being.

Calling references to bhoot, pret, jinn, etc 'metaphors' is taking the easy way out.

Suleman said pret are attracted to meat and alcohol, and what do voodoo priests off to the spirits? - blood and alcohol.

As for randip singh's posts - the fisrt is ad hominem, the second fails to answer the question.

155332[/snapback]

You want to believe in Ghosts, the tooth fairy etc....carry on.

I suggest however, you read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and don't dismiss what I have stated as failing to answer the question. I have quoted directly from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

This belief in the occult is irrational and has no part to play in Sikhi.

By your logic people who take medicince with alcohol in it will attract Bhoots.....watch out and make sure not to o.d on Night Nurse. LOL.gif

Our body are flesh/meat, there for all life forms are natural attractors of Bhoots. Most of the planet must be afflicted with Booths etc. LOL.gif

There is only one Booth and that is Maya ..........which is the illusion created by Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

It is statements about the existence of Bhoots etc that drive Sikhs to soothsayers and so called holy men who claim to perform excorsim.

What I suggest is rather than printing stories from hearsay and other sites, print quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that state Bhoots exist as in ghosts..........and not in the metaphoric sense. Calling them metaphors is not the easy way out, but forces people to look at themselves rather than blaming abstract and irrational external forces that don't exist.

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psu pRyq muGd pwQr kau qwrY ]

srb rog kw AauKdu nwmu ]

pas praeth mughadh paathhar ko thaarai ||

sarab rog kaa aoukhadh naam ||

***

kabeer har kaa simaran shhaadd kai raath jagaavan jaae ||

sarapan hoe kai aoutharai jaaeae apunae khaae ||107||

Kabeer, those who give up meditation on the Lord, and get up at night to wake the spirits of the dead,

shall be reincarnated as snakes, and eat their own offspring. ||107||

***

a(n)th kaal jo ma(n)dhar simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

praeth jon val val aoutharai ||4||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a ghost. ||4||

***

edit: you keep saying 'afflicted with' etc, pret is just one of the 68 million jouns, you have a hollywood idea that ghosts run around randomly possessing people rattling chains etc

There is only one Booth and that is Maya ..........which is the illusion created by Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar

thats not true either

Maya is not created by the 5 thieves. Maya is everything that is made with 5 elements, kaljug deludes you into believing it is reality, the 5 thieves stop any progress of bhagti, they are part of kaljug. They dont 'create' anything

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u guys watch movies such as the exorcist expecially the new one that came out "exorcism of emily rose" .. and u think thats freaky ..

try going to india or ask your relatives.. there are COUNTLESS number of incidents around the world of demon pocessions .. ghosts been seen .. felt .. i got a lot of family in india that have been through a lot and singh .. trust me .. u cant just call them 'mad' or 'insane' or 'taken over by maya' ..

even guru granth sahib ji mentions the jift about ghosts.. bhai sahib bhai randheer ji even mentioned in his book (i think) ..

so randip veerji .. why dont you believe in them if our guru says so .. i dont understand how those quotes that crayzy gave are not more straight forward..

ghosts, demons, spirits, pocessions, etx.. ALL exist ..

in fact .. one mite be near ur side rite now :e:

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exorcism of emily rose is btw based on a true story

demon possessions are a negative side

voodoo priests have long invited spirits to temporarily take control of their bodies at offering ceremonies.

from SA

Baba Santpartap Singh ji of Karamsar Gurdwara in Ilford has discussed this Sakhi in the Darbar many times. He was a child when this incident occured and was present at RaraSahib. Suleman remained within the Gurdwara complex for sometime before he was reborn as a Sikh. Babaji and many other Sikh who were sevadars at RaraSahib actively spoke to Suleman during that period.

Suleman was reborn as a Sikh in the late 60s to GurSikh parents who were sevadars at RaraSahib.

also this if you can read Gurmukhi

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...uleman&start=30

(login required)

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psu pRyq muGd pwQr kau qwrY ]

srb rog kw AauKdu nwmu ]

pas praeth mughadh paathhar ko thaarai ||

sarab rog kaa aoukhadh naam ||

***

kabeer har kaa simaran shhaadd kai raath jagaavan jaae ||

sarapan hoe kai aoutharai jaaeae apunae khaae ||107||

Kabeer, those who give up meditation on the Lord, and get up at night to wake the spirits of the dead,

shall be reincarnated as snakes, and eat their own offspring. ||107||

***

a(n)th kaal jo ma(n)dhar simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

praeth jon val val aoutharai ||4||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a ghost. ||4||

***

edit: you keep saying 'afflicted with' etc, pret is just one of the 68 million jouns, you have a hollywood idea that ghosts run around randomly possessing people rattling chains etc

155496[/snapback]

I thought you might do this.

Can I have exact page numbers so I can put these lines into context to ensure you have not quoted out of context.

Thanks.

There is only one Booth and that is Maya ..........which is the illusion created by Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar

thats not true either

Maya is not created by the 5 thieves. Maya is everything that is made with 5 elements, kaljug deludes you into believing it is reality, the 5 thieves stop any progress of bhagti, they are part of kaljug. They dont 'create' anything

155496[/snapback]

The 5 thieves are the illusion that people pursue. All these 5 thieves are tangible and keep us away from what is really going on. The obsession with these leads us to insanity and madness.

ਸਲੋਕ ॥

सलोक ॥

salok.

Shalok:

ਕੁਟੰਬ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਣੰ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਨੇਕ ਉਦਮਹ ॥

कुट्मब जतन करणं माइआ अनेक उदमह ॥

kutamb jatan karnaN maa-i-aa anayk udmah.

For his family, he works very hard; for the sake of Maya, he makes countless efforts.

ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਵ ਹੀਣੰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਸਰਤ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਤਤਹ ॥੧॥

हरि भगति भाव हीणं नानक प्रभ बिसरत ते प्रेततह ॥१॥

har bhagat bhaav heenaN naanak parabh bisrat tay paraytah. ||1||

But without loving devotional worship of the Lord, O Nanak, he forgets God, and then, he is a mere ghost. ||1||

ਤੁਟੜੀਆ ਸਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਜੋ ਲਾਈ ਬਿਅੰਨ ਸਿਉ ॥

तुटड़ीआ सा प्रीति जो लाई बिअंन सिउ ॥

tutrhee-aa saa pareet jo laa-ee bi-ann si-o.

That love shall break, which is established with any other than the Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੀ ਰੀਤਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ॥੨॥

नानक सची रीति सांई सेती रतिआ ॥२॥

naanak sachee reet saaN-ee saytee rati-aa. ||2||

O Nanak, that way of life is true, which inspires love of the Lord. ||2|| 

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u guys watch movies such as the exorcist expecially the new one that came out "exorcism of emily rose" .. and u think thats freaky ..

try going to india or ask your relatives.. there are COUNTLESS number of incidents around the world of demon pocessions .. ghosts been seen .. felt .. i got  a lot of family in india that have been through a lot and singh  .. trust me .. u cant just call them 'mad' or 'insane' or 'taken over by maya' ..

even guru granth sahib ji mentions the jift about ghosts.. bhai sahib bhai randheer ji even mentioned in his book (i think) ..

so randip veerji .. why dont you believe in them if our guru says so .. i dont understand how those quotes that crayzy gave are not more straight forward..

ghosts, demons, spirits, pocessions, etx.. ALL exist ..

in fact .. one mite be near ur side rite now  :e:

155515[/snapback]

please tell me that I don't believe in what our Guru teaches us. ohmy.gif

Crazy's quotes are out of context (no offense).

What people have to do is read shaloks in context and see what Guruji is trying to get at. I have no doubt things exist in alternate realities etc............but they are certainly not Ghosts as people are talking about here.

Sikhism was created to take us away from such idiotic and superstitious nonsense, however, there are a hardcore element hell bent on taking us back to beliefs in the tooth fairy, ghosts, and lala land.

PS and i DONT MEAN YOU.

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there asnt ghosts as inthe sence OOO im gonna get UUU, and tha they can fight of the forces of good, and there this constant battle between em etc. as we see in the movies

but it is a joon as pointed out by gurbani

thas it

and a ghost can be <Edited> and do some crazy stuff

but they aint nuthin compared to akaal

people here first before postin shud REALLY reead bhai sahibs book undithee duniya

u can even get it in english, and in gurmukhee

it has stuff directly related to ghosts, yamdooths, etc.

bhula chuka maf

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Crazy's quotes are out of context (no offense).

you yourself said that you dont know where my quotes are from and you make claims like this?

its *your* quote that is out of context to the discussion - nobody denied that people live like ghosts.

This Shabad is by Bhagat Trilochan Ji in Raag Gujri on Pannaa 526

gUjrI ]

AMiq kwil jo lCmI ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

srp join vil vil AauqrY ]1]

ArI bweI goibd nwmu miq bIsrY ] rhwau ]

AMiq kwil jo iesqRI ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

bysvw join vil vil AauqrY ]2]

AMiq kwil jo liVky ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

sUkr join vil vil AauqrY ]3]

AMiq kwil jo mMdr ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

pRyq join vil vil AauqrY ]4]

AMiq kwil nwrwiexu ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMbru vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]

Goojaree:

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a ghost. ||4||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

there are a hardcore element hell bent on taking us back to beliefs

on the contrary, there are a set of apologists that live in denial and make excuses for what Gurbani says.

Am I goin to believe Pauris from Guru Granth Sahib; sakhis from Sant Isher Singh, Baba Thakur Singh, Sant Waryam Singh etc etc, or some guy that posts on a forum

The 5 thieves are the illusion that people pursue. All these 5 thieves are tangible and keep us away from what is really going on.

so first theyre an illusion and then theyre tangible.

cant make your mind up?

people dont pursue the 5 thieves, they live within you, your job as a Sikh is to bring them under control.

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Crazy's quotes are out of context (no offense).

you yourself said that you dont know where my quotes are from and you make claims like this?

its *your* quote that is out of context to the discussion - nobody denied that people live like ghosts.

They are out of context quite clearly, because you took one line out of a paragraph to prove there were ghosts.

I have merely illustrated that what you think is real i.e. a ghost is used to describe the state of a man who is possesed by the ill's of the five vices.

This Shabad is by Bhagat Trilochan Ji in Raag Gujri on Pannaa 526

gUjrI ]

AMiq kwil jo lCmI ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

srp join vil vil AauqrY ]1]

ArI bweI goibd nwmu miq bIsrY ] rhwau ]

AMiq kwil jo iesqRI ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

bysvw join vil vil AauqrY ]2]

AMiq kwil jo liVky ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

sUkr join vil vil AauqrY ]3]

AMiq kwil jo mMdr ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

pRyq join vil vil AauqrY ]4]

AMiq kwil nwrwiexu ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMbru vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]

Goojaree:

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a ghost. ||4||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

Ahh...as I thought....you quoted totally and utterly ourt of context.

This Tukh is talking about the Five Thieves not saying there are ghosts. LOL.gif

there are a hardcore element hell bent on taking us back to beliefs

on the contrary, there are a set of apologists that live in denial and make excuses for what Gurbani says.

It not a question of being an apologist but a question of quoting in and out of context. No need to get so offensive friend.....when I made this statement I was not talking about you either, but rather the way Brahminist thinking weaves its way into Sikhism in India. ...........................Do you know they used to have Hindu dieties in the Harmandhir Sahib?

Am I goin to believe Pauris from Guru Granth Sahib; sakhis from Sant Isher Singh, Baba Thakur Singh, Sant Waryam Singh etc etc, or some guy that posts on a forum

Brother, I don't really care if you belive me or not. I am countering your argument that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji talks about ghosts and possesion.

I have already stated, that I do not deny other realms of existence. Ghosts maybe manifestations of this. However, to come up with half baked stories from some guy on sikhawareness about some ghost in TOTALLY unbelievable. :lol:

The 5 thieves are the illusion that people pursue. All these 5 thieves are tangible and keep us away from what is really going on.

so first theyre an illusion and then theyre tangible.

cant make your mind up?

They are actually both.

They are things we can actually touch and feel and are of this world. ........however, the reckless pursuit of these is just an illusion. Have I made myself clearer?

people dont pursue the 5 thieves, they live within you, your job as a Sikh is to bring them under control.

Yes they live within in you, but people do pursue them. Whether externally or internally. They are manifestations of base animal instincts and lead you ultimately to ruin and madness if they are obssesed about.

You need to relax my friend and not take things so personally. :cool: :TH:

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