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Manchester_Sikhi

Spirits, Curses And Superstitions

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However, to come up with half baked stories from some guy on sikhawareness about some ghost in TOTALLY unbelievable

theres a recording, the jathedar of karamsar Gurudwara Ilford was there when it happened - whats half baked??

suleman is a pret coming to the Guru begging for mukti - but you go off on a tangent about toot fairies.

Ahh...as I thought....you quoted totally and utterly ourt of context.

This Tukh is talking about the Five Thieves not saying there are ghosts.

i dont want to question your understanding of the english language of gurmukhi but read the 4th pauri again and tell me that ghosts don't exist.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a ghost. ||4||

yes, he/she thinks of his house as a result of moh, but what is he/she reincarnated as????

think before you speak - I take it personally because you are avoiding the issue. The tuck clearly has direct reference to the existence of pret but you ignore this. I take it personally because people have met Suleman and the recording was made at Rara Sahib, you can even hear Sant Isher Singh's kirtan in the background - the story was transliterated from a book called "pret kiton devte" by Gursikh present at Rarasahib at the time.

I have already stated, that I do not deny other realms of existence.

then why are you arguing?

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how the hell r u gonna read tha and say tha has something to do with panj dooths?

its clear wa gurbani means

whoever at there end thinks of there house, will be reincarnated as a preth, a ghost

was so hard about that?

and the way the shabad is written there is no metaphors in this shabad

the whole point is ultimley to tell us to remeber akaal at the end, or there gonna be problems

before neone keeps on postin, i think this topic can be ended if we all jus read undithee duniya by bhai sahib randheer singh je

and gurbani has already given us the answer

bhula chuka maf

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theres a recording, the jathedar of karamsar Gurudwara Ilford was there when it happened - whats half baked??

suleman is a pret coming to the Guru begging for mukti - but you go off on a tangent about toot fairies.

i dont want to question your understanding of the english language of gurmukhi but read the 4th pauri again and tell me that ghosts don't exist.

theres a recording, the jathedar of karamsar Gurudwara Ilford was there when it happened - whats half baked??

155596[/snapback]

I am sure that person believes those stories. I do not. That’s my choice because my Guru tells me not to believe in occult.

suleman is a pret coming to the Guru begging for mukti - but you go off on a tangent about toot fairies.

155596[/snapback]

Its in the same category . :lol:

i dont want to question your understanding of the english language of gurmukhi but read the 4th pauri again and tell me that ghosts don't exist.

155596[/snapback]

It is clearly a metaphor. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is full of metaphors used to teach people.

No Ghosts don’t exist……not in the sense of demonic possessions etc.

Goojaree:

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a ghost. ||4||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

yes, he/she thinks of his house as a result of moh, but what is he/she reincarnated as????

155596[/snapback]

Think about this carefully. Ghosts are tied to the things they loved the most. In this case she loved her material stuff so much she became tied to it permanently. In other words she had a worthless existence, for that is what a ghost is surely.

Also, if he is obsessed by Kaam he will be a prostitute, having to endure what she was attached to for his entire life.

People in other words become slaves to the 5 thieves eventually.

think before you speak - I take it personally because you are avoiding the issue. The tuck clearly has direct reference to the existence of pret but you ignore this. I take it personally because people have met Suleman and the recording was made at Rara Sahib, you can even hear Sant Isher Singh's kirtan in the background - the story was transliterated from a book called "pret kiton devte" by Gursikh present at Rarasahib at the time.

155596[/snapback]

I’m not avoiding the issue at all. You simply don’t want to hear what I have to say. You are so preoccupied by Spirits, Ghosts, Ghouls and Goblins, you are missing the basic message of the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Rather than spending all your time listening to Sants and Suleman, sit down, read and study the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also read some background to the history of the Guru’s.

That message I will leave for you to figure out, because I am nowhere near knowing it.

Maybe then you won’t take things so personally.

then why are you arguing?

155596[/snapback]

You maybe arguing, but I am discussing.

I do not deny the existence of other realms of existence, but they certainly are not the spirits , ghosts and goblins that you are talking about.

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how the hell r u gonna read tha and say tha has something to do with panj dooths?

its clear wa gurbani means

whoever at there end thinks of there house, will be reincarnated as a preth, a ghost

was so hard about that?

and the way the shabad is written there is no metaphors in this shabad

the whole point is ultimley to tell us to remeber akaal at the end, or there gonna be problems

before neone keeps on postin, i think this topic can be ended if we all jus read undithee duniya by bhai sahib randheer singh je

and gurbani has already given us the answer

bhula chuka maf

155617[/snapback]

That is your opinion I respect that. That however, is not my view.

Thanks.

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randip veerji ..

please educate us .. i am honestly very interested to know how you get another meaning from that quote that crayzy veerji gave ..

please do share..

155669[/snapback]

Brother, I am not here to teach anyone. All I am saying is look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji....study it...digest it. I am still learning just like you.

Ok you may consider me an old git at 37, but I am always and still learning. :lol: I have learned from this site and others an incredible amount from people still in their teens.

For me Sikhism is a very practical. All indications and examples set by the Guru's

take us away from the occult etc.

The Guru's explained things very rationally in a manner in which the common folk understood. For example I have a group of friends that are Physcists and Sikhs. Not being a scientist they have to explain complex scientific things to a thicko like me is terminology I can understand. Amplify the understanding of the Guru's ad infinitum (compared to my friends)...........you can imagine the difficulty Guruji must have had when explaining complex terms to us. The remarkable thing is that they (the Guru's) have succeeded. I think we have to continually ask our Guru for guidance at different stages of our lives. For example I read a tukh say at 25 ..................now after all these years with my mind being more calm and rational, that same tukh takes a totally different meaning.

We must constantly strive to move closer to being Gurmookhs.

Again, thats my view, others may challenge me on that.

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I am sure that person believes those stories. I do not. That’s my choice because my Guru tells me not to believe in occult.

can you show me where Guru Sahib says this?

He 'believes' those stories? please, he was there and saw them with his own eyes.

We dont use the occult, just like Gursikhs with Ridhia Sidhia don't use them either. Doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

It is clearly a metaphor. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is full of metaphors used to teach people.

No Ghosts don’t exist……not in the sense of demonic possessions etc.

...

Also, if he is obsessed by Kaam he will be a prostitute, having to endure what she was attached to for his entire life.

assertion is worthless, tell me how its a metaphor.

and who is talking about demonic possession.

Again, I dont want to question your ability to understand english, but he 'will be' nothing?? - the tukh talks about the dying thought of a person. If you read the gurmukhi you will understand - and it clearly states you will be reincarnated as a pret.

I get the feeling you dont know what a metaphor is.

If you can read the Gurbani quoted and still claim its a metaphor all I can say is that you are in denial.

I’m not avoiding the issue at all. You simply don’t want to hear what I have to say. You are so preoccupied by Spirits, Ghosts, Ghouls and Goblins, you are missing the basic message of the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

this thread is about ghosts.

I do not deny the existence of other realms of existence, but they certainly are not the spirits , ghosts and goblins that you are talking about.

based on what?

Gurbani mentions pret, bhoot, narak, dojak, devte but you think youi're smarter

stop trying to twist the message of Gurbani to support your views, a true Sikh changes his view to support the Gurus, not the other way around.

For me Sikhism is a very practical. All indications and examples set by the Guru's

take us away from the occult etc.

you *keep* saying this. You never back it up. What indications?

Who has said we should practice the occult? nobody

No one has denied that people live like ghosts - so those points are invalid, same with the points about panj doot.

The only denial here is yours of the existence of pret.

It seems to me that you're afraid to see the truth because you see talking about ghosts as a case of 'guilt by association'.

Rather than spending all your time listening to Sants and Suleman, sit down, read and study the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also read some background to the history of the Guru’s.

thats like saying that I shouldnt listen to my teachers, I should sit around trying to explain calculus to myself. If people cant learn something as simple as math on their own, how are you going to learn the hardest art, Brahm Vidiya by reading translation of Guru Sahib and makig your own assumptions about the meaning of Gurbani.

To ignore the experiences of anbhavi Gursikhs like Bhai Randir Singh, Sant ISher SIngh etc etc is like sitting in the dark refusing to turn on the light and then complaining that you cant see.

now that is a metaphor.

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As Gursikhs we do not need to quarel about this, since it's completly irrelevant to our Sikhi whether they exist or not.

We do not believe in superstitions, but whether ghosts and spritis exist, seriously doesn't matter.

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can you show me where Guru Sahib says this?

He 'believes' those stories? please, he was there and saw them with his own eyes.

We dont use the occult, just like Gursikhs with Ridhia Sidhia don't use them either. Doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

155697[/snapback]

Here’s Guruji’s view on superstitious claptrap like that:

Page 190

ga-orhee mehlaa 5.

Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

jaa ka-o apnee kirpaa Dhaarai.

Those, upon whom the Lord Himself showers His Mercy,

so jan rasnaa naam uchaaray. ||1||

chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, with their tongues. ||1||

har bisrat sahsaa dukh bi-aapai.

Forgetting the Lord, superstition and sorrow shall overtake you.

simrat naam bharam bha-o bhaagai. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Meditating on the Naam, doubt and fear shall depart. ||1||Pause||

har keertan sunai har keertan gaavai.

Listening to the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and singing the Lord's Kirtan,

tis jan dookh nikat nahee aavai. ||2||

misfortune shall not even come near you. ||2||

har kee tahal karat jan sohai.

Working for the Lord, His humble servants look beautiful.

taa ka-o maa-i-aa agan na pohai. ||3||

The fire of Maya does not touch them. ||3||

man tan mukh har naam da-i-aal.

Within their minds, bodies and mouths, is the Name of the Merciful Lord.

naanak tajee-alay avar janjaal. ||4||52||121||

Nanak has renounced other entanglements. ||4||52||121||

assertion is worthless, tell me how its a metaphor. .

155697[/snapback]

Assertion hmm. So someone elses opinion is worthless assertion …..I’m beginning to understand you now.

and who is talking about demonic possession.

155697[/snapback]

It all comes from the same hymn sheet doesn’t it (that’s a metaphor btw).

Again, I dont want to question your ability to understand english, but he 'will be' nothing?? - the tukh talks about the dying thought of a person. If you read the gurmukhi you will understand - and it clearly states you will be reincarnated as a pret.

155697[/snapback]

Well why bring up my ability to understand English then?

The Tukh reads to me talking of people who indulge in the 5 vices, and uses metaphors of ghosts and prostitutes to illustrate the deep problems they will face no doubt.

I get the feeling you dont know what a metaphor is.

If you can read the Gurbani quoted and still claim its a metaphor all I can say is that you are in denial.

155697[/snapback]

Ok I am in denial and don’t know what a metaphor is. You are all knowing. Oh brother.

this thread is about ghosts.

155697[/snapback]

Yes and you believe in them. I don’t.

based on what?

155697[/snapback]

Page 3

jay ko man jaanai man ko-ay. ||12||

Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12||

mannai surat hovai man buDh.

The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.

mannai sagal bhavan kee suDh.

The faithful know about all worlds and realms.

mannai muhi chotaa naa khaa-ay.

The faithful shall never be struck across the face.

Gurbani mentions pret, bhoot, narak, dojak, devte but you think youi're smarter

155697[/snapback]

Also mentions, Krishna, Ram, Mohammed , the bible….do you believe in that to.

You are being very stupid now. I don’t think I’m smarter, but I think you are very immature.

stop trying to twist the message of Gurbani to support your views, a true Sikh changes his view to support the Gurus, not the other way around.

155697[/snapback]

Stop trying to make young Sikhs belive in Ghosts and the Bogeyman.

you *keep* saying this. You never back it up. What indications?

155697[/snapback]

Here is an example from the SGGSji

satgur mantar dee-o har naam.

The True Guru has given me the Mantra of the Lord's Name.

ih aasar pooran bha-ay kaam. ||2||

By this Support, my affairs have been resolved. ||2||

jap tap sanjam pooree vadi-aa-ee.

Meditation, self-discipline, self-control and perfect greatness,

gur kirpaal har bha-ay sahaa-ee. ||3||

were obtained when the Merciful Lord, the Guru, became my Help and Support. ||3||

maan moh kho-ay gur bharam.

The Guru has dispelled pride, emotional attachment and superstition.

paykh naanak pasray paarbarahm. ||4||81||150||

Nanak sees the Supreme Lord God pervading everywhere. ||4||81||150||

There are also many stories attributed to the Guru’s that they never paid heed to Superstition or the occult.

Who has said we should practice the occult? Nobody

155697[/snapback]

Ghosts, superstition, prets etc..aren’t they all to do with occult?

No one has denied that people live like ghosts - so those points are invalid, same with the points about panj doot.

155697[/snapback]

Yes I know my points are invalid rolleyes.gif

The only denial here is yours of the existence of pret.

155697[/snapback]

No I am saying your understanding and interpretation is wrong.

It seems to me that you're afraid to see the truth because you see talking about ghosts as a case of 'guilt by association'.

155697[/snapback]

I’d rather be blind than see the truth through superstitious eyes.

thats like saying that I shouldnt listen to my teachers, I should sit around trying to explain calculus to myself. If people cant learn something as simple as math on their own, how are you going to learn the hardest art, Brahm Vidiya by reading translation of Guru Sahib and makig your own assumptions about the meaning of Gurbani.

To ignore the experiences of anbhavi Gursikhs like Bhai Randir Singh, Sant ISher SIngh etc etc is like sitting in the dark refusing to turn on the light and then complaining that you cant see.

now that is a metaphor.

155697[/snapback]

I thought the Sri Guru Granth Sahib was your teacher? Maybe you are on another path?

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