The Only Way...

[Singh132]

Khalsa4ever,

Please think before you make arguments. Dont' argue for the sake of arguing. Guru Gobind Singh asked for amrit from the PUNJ PYAARAY. The Punj Pyaaray still give amrit and naam today. The Punj Pyaaray have Guru Sahib acting in them. But no ONE SIKH ever has this power or can be the equal to Guru Sahib.

ms514,

I have provided tuks saying no one is equal to Satguru. Even when one with Vahiguru the bani clearly says, not equal to Satguru. But you have posted some tuks of your own.

Before addressing them, it's clear to any reader that neither says Guru and Sikh are equal. That is frankly blasphemy.

The second tuk you posted doesn't say Guru and Sikh are equal, just that the Guru and the Sikh both are merged in the light. That doesn't mean equal. The Sikh and Guru share a lot of qualities like daya, love for all, etc. Doesn't make them equal.

The first tuk you posted says the Guru and Sikh are one, both spread teh Guru's teachings. Both are one as they share the same mission. Absolutely. The tuk does not mean that both are equal and have the same rights though.

gurisKW AMdir siqgurU vrqY jo isKW no locY so gur KusI AwvY ]

This tuk and the tuk you posted are related. A Sikh and Guru are like one because Satguru resides in the Sikh. Satguru and Sikh become one like that. The Sikh does the Guru's work and the Guru resides in him. Like the tuk you posted, in spreading the message of the Guru, etc.

So what difference remains between Sikh and Guru? Because Guru Sahib clearly says no one is equal to Satguru. No Sikh can give naam. Another point is that let's say a Sikh reaches the highest possible spiritual level now. They become one with Vahiguru. Can that Sikh now compose Bani? Why not? Because he's not Satguru.

[Pheena]

mÚ 4 ]

siqguru purKu AgMmu hY ijsu AMdir hir auir DwirAw ]

siqgurU no ApiV koie n skeI ijsu vil isrjxhwirAw ]

siqgurU kw KVgu sMjoau hir Bgiq hY ijqu kwlu kMtku mwir ivfwirAw ]

siqgurU kw rKxhwrw hir Awip hY siqgurU kY ipCY hir siB aubwirAw ]

jo mMdw icqvY pUry siqgurU kw so Awip aupwvxhwrY mwirAw ]

eyh gl hovY hir drgh scy kI jn nwnk Agmu vIcwirAw ]2]

This shabad clearly says that Satguru jee is greatest.  It says that he saves all those that follow him.  But this very shabad says NO ONE can equal the Guru. 

I can find many other tuks from Bani which say that there is no equal to Satguru, but no one can find even ONE that says a Sikh becomes equal to the Satguru.

Take for example

siqgur jyvfu dwqw ko nhI siB suixAhu lok sbwieAw ]

***

AYsw siqguru loiV lhu ijsu jyvfu Avru n koie ]

***

siqgur jyvfu Avru n koie ]

***

siqgur puriK imlwieAw iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie jIau ]1] rhwau ]

***

The last tuk is very important.  It says Satguru has united me (with Vahiguru), he has no equal.  So after being united with Vahiguru, there is still no equal to Satguru jee.  Bani is clear on it.

Those are beautiful quotes. But these quotes are spoke from a dualistic view, that there cannot be a Second who can be equal to the Guru. Not in the context of he who has merged with God and become one with him is not Equal to him. When the 2 have merged, there is no difference nor distinction between the 2, there is no longer the second.

There is only ONE and there will be only ONE and there will never be 'another' (second) who is equal to that ONE.

The word Jayvad in SatGur Jayvad Koi Nahi....the word Jayvad is implies a second, Satgur Jayvad(Varga) koi nahi...the 'likeness' of the SatGuru there isn't any. There isn't someone else who is like the SatGuru. He is ONE. The Shabads remove the notion that there must be second like The True Guru...God. He is only one and there no other like him.

Guru Sahib unites his Sikhs with Vahiguru, but they never become equal of the Guru.  Guru is a very special "padvi" that was given only to Guru Nanak.  But the difference between a Satguru and Sikh remains that the Sikh is always the daas of the Satguru.  A Sikh cannot give naam.  Only Satguru jee can and this is the biggest difference.

But when the Sikh has become one with the Guru/God, who then is the Sikh and who then is the Guru? Can we differentiate between the two. The only way a difference will remain is if the individuality of the Sikh, the Self identity remains. Or as many time it is seen in the words of Guru Nanak who himself had become one with God, but yet he still express such vairaag of not being one with him....Guru ji still spoke from a sevaks point of view.

Vaho Vaho Gobind Singh, aapy Gur Chela.

As for who is Satguru Nanak;  please see the posts above.  Guru Nanak is the eternal Guru who has existed since Satjug.

So Guru Nanak is the eternal Guru (God)

gur goivMdu guoivMdu gurU hY nwnk Bydu n BweI]

***

So according to you previous posts above if this eternal Guru who you call Nanak can give Naam to Dhru or Prehlaad and other Bhagats, then Can this eternal Guru give this Naam (and by Naam i do not mean 'Waheguru') to Jesus or Muhammed or any other devotees of God or the Saints of Christian Mysticsm or the Sufi derveshes or the Zen monks? Or is it reserved only for those on who walk the path of Sikhi?

[Lion(LK)King]

LK,

Your points are once again totally off.

Even on a historical level, (look this up) Trilochan was not Namdev ji's Guru.  No where does it say Trilochan gave Namdev jee naam.  Meharban Janamsakhi in fact tells us that all the bhagats, including Namdev ji and Trilochan became Sikhs of Guru Nanak at Ayodhya (where a Gurdwara stands to mark the meeting).  If they were liberated, why did they need to become Sikhs?

Secondly, the tuk you quoted "aap mukat mohi taarai" is totally inapplicable.  Is being mukat a condition precedent or condition subsequent of being a Guru?  Being a Guru in this tuk is the thing that precedes and once being a Guru, they can give mukati.  By being a Guru, they are default already Mukat.  This does not mean someone who becomes mukat (possibly only by Gurparsaad) they become a Guru (equal of their own Guru).

Gursikhs become jeevan mukat.  Many Sikhs have been jeevan mukat but none became equal to Satguru and could give mukti.  Only Satguru can give naam.  Are you suggesting that a Sikh who reaches a certain level can then become the equal of Guru Nanak and Punj Pyaaray and give naam himself?  How else would he give mukti according to you? 

A Satguru has a lot of properties.  He is in Anand, he doesnt' have any enmity, he seeks the "bhalla" of everyone.  But having those qualities doesn't, in reverse make someone a Satguru.

157972[/snapback]

The fact that the bani of Bhagat Namdev JI, Bhagat Trilochan Ji, and other Bhagats' Bani is in Guru Sahib is a very beutiful, and essensial concept, which in itself says a lot.

1 - Bhai Gurdas Ji clearly says that Bhagat Namdev Ji was one with the jyot. It clearly says that it was through Bhagat Namdev Ji's help Bhagat Trilochan Singh gained the jyot. Nowhere is a meeting at ayodhya mentioned.

One who is mukat (and thus one with the jyot), is part of the jyot, and can thus do anything the jyot can do. The Shabad clearly says, that even God is bound to what his devoties (which are ultimately the jyot itself) want/say.

Then you write -

Gursikhs become jeevan mukat.  Many Sikhs have been jeevan mukat but none became equal to Satguru and could give mukti.  Only Satguru can give naam.  Are you suggesting that a Sikh who reaches a certain level can then become the equal of Guru Nanak and Punj Pyaaray and give naam himself?  How else would he give mukti according to you? 

1 - Which Guru was Bhagat Dhru and Bhagat Prehlad 'mukh' to?

2 - Did the above mentioned get naam/mukti/sachkhand/liberation from the charan pahul of Guru Nanak Dev Ji of Khandey Batey di pahul of Panj Pyaarey, or? I put more trust in Bhai Gurdas ji than any Janamsakhi on the planet, and hence I trust the words of Bhai Gurdas ji saying that mukti/sachkhand/liberation/jeevan mukt, comes from Prem and Pyaar, the criteria Bhagat Trilochan Ji clearly had, and through Bhagat Namdev ji (who was essensially, one with the one, and hence the jyot itself..)

My understanding of Prof Sahib Singh is slightly different from the English translation

siqgurU AgMm purK hY ijs ny ihrdy ivc pRBU nUM proqw hooieAw hY [ siqgurU dI brwbrI koeI nhIN kr skdw, ikauNik isrjnhwr aus dy v`l hY [ siqgurU dI KVg qy sMjoA pRBU dI BgqI hY ijs nwl aus ny kwl (-rUp) kMfy nUM (Bwv, mOq dy fr nUM) mwr ky pry su`itAw hY [ siqgurU dw rwKw pRBU Awp hY qy siqgurU dy pUrinAW qy qurn vwly sBnW nUM BI pRBU bcw lYNdw hY [

The key word here seems to be 'barabri', compete. No-one can compete with the Guru, because he is one with Vahegur. Now someone who is one with Vaheguru, is he not one with the Guru?

Pheena jee completely knocked the nail. It is in a point of duality, where someone would be trying to compete. Perhaps it is there to show that even maya cannot compete with the Guru, since those of Semetic religions believe that 'sheytan' can compete with Vaheguru, but Guru ji is saying that no-one can compere with the Guru. It is impossible. All of the quotes talk about a 'jeyvad', as Pheena jee points out.

The first tuk you posted says the Guru and Sikh are one, both spread teh Guru's teachings. Both are one as they share the same mission. Absolutely. The tuk does not mean that both are equal and have the same rights though.

(pRym dI brkiq nwl) gurU is`K (nwl iek-rUp ho jWdw) hY Aqy is`K gurU (ivc lIn ho jWdw) hY, is`K BI gurU vwly aupdyS (dI lVI) ƒ AgWh qordw rihMdw hY [ hy nwnk ! ijs mnu`K ƒ gurU prmwqmw dy nwm dw mMqr ihrdy ivc (vswx leI) dyNdw hY, pRym dw sdkw aus dw imlwp (prmwqmw nwl) ho jWdw hY [8[2[9[

'ek-roop ho janda hai', and AFTER that - 'Sikh Bhi Guru Valey updes di laRi agah torda hai'. Gurbani Tuk seems to completely concurr that anyone 'leen' or 'Guru nal ek roop' can indeed spread the message. Even if you argue that Guru Nanak Dev Ji (essentially, the jyot) gave naam to Bhagat Dhru and Bhagat Prehald Ji, it is clear that they thus had the power of spreading that message. This ofcourse does not mean that any Gursikh out there can do that, but that anyone 'leen' 'Guru nala ek' can do that. We know for a certain that Punj are just that, which means that we don't need to look 'dije pasaey'

Bhull chukk maaf :wub:

[Singh132]

LK,

Which part of Bhai Gurdas's shabad says they were united with the "jyot"? I missed that reference.

Then you asked about who were Dhru and Prehlad "mukh" to. Read the above posts. Gurbani tells us that Guru Nanak put his hand on their head (yes, Guru Nanak) and gave them naam.

But anyways, 2 questions. If today someone reaches the highest stages and is totally one with Vahiguru can they,

1) Individually, outside of the Punj Pyaaray start giving naam?

2) Start creating "Gurbani"?

Both are rights reserved for Satguru. Do you then think this Gursikh could do both?

Pheena,

Guru Nanak could chose who he wanted to bless with naam. But the rules to meet Vahiguru don't change. If they gave naam to Jesus or whoever else, they would have to have lived "Sikh" lives. It doesn't make sense that naam was given to these people anyways, since the paths they started have no mention of naam.

Some examples of what happens when a Sikh of the highest spiritual levels tries to equal the Guru are as follows (taken from Ranglay Sajjan by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh)

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From the life of Bhai Hira Singh Daudpuri:

Retroversion of Spirituality

This was a case retroversion of high spirituality enjoyed by our dear Gurumukh, Saintly Bhai Hira Singh. All his high attainments of enlightenment within started coming to nought. He went around lamenting and humbly rolling among the shoes of holy congregation, Sangats. He would cry out that he had lost all his internal bliss and enlightenment of his self. He strived in every possible way, but could never regain lost glory. He roamed about in wilderness, meditated on parapets of wells standing on one leg, meditated for long on Nam-Divine, counted beads of rosary in presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib endlessly and yet his state of perplexity remained. He would come to Kirtan Samagams, but remained outside behaving like insane person. He would rub dust of the shoes of sangat on his body and face. In fact all his measures to seek solace let to more and more misery.

Many well-wishers of Bhai Hira Singh, taking pity on his woe-begone state, approached Jatha with pleas on his behalf. However Gurmukh devotees, lost in love of kirtan, never cared, though persons with great perception of Truth and Will-Divine knew that time was not yet ripe for forgiveness-Divine. When it was propitious time, Bhai Hira Singh was called up by the chosen Five during Baptizing ceremony. I was in attendance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib on this occasion. Bhai Hira Singh presented himself. He was then called upon to explain his true story by the chosen Five. He tearfully narrated that he was unaware of this state of spiritual retroversion. He was unaware of any wrong doing not even in dream. The cause of down-fall was unknown to him and he was unable to regain glory that he once experienced. All his strivings have proved of no avail. The cause of present faithlessness in mystery to him. At the prompting of the chosen Five, I reminded Bhai Hira Singh, “Remember your glorious spiritual experiences at Chak No. 361. Was it all due to Grace of Guru or you took the credit upon yourself? Have you suffered from imperceptible self-pride, that the wonderful happenings were due to your own efforts?” This question shook him visibly from top to toe. The second question promptly followed, “Are you bestowing Gurumat Nam all by yourself in the tradition of your own Guru-Dom?” This brought him to senses and he lamented that he was guilty of this wrong-doing occasionally. For sometimes this practice appeared very rewarding, but soon proved futile. The Five chosen ones took hold of him and gave him a good shake, saying that this was act of grave defiance. The authority bestowed on the chosen-Five, representing Guru, was usurped by you alone. This was responsible for draining away of all spirituality of Nam. Bhai Hira Singh then wailed for forgiveness. The Five Chosen ones awarded heavy punishment to Bhai Hira Singh and prayed for his forgiveness by the Guru. Satguru graced him and progress started and he started regaining all the lost Bliss and glory. Imbued with Love-Divine and splendor Divine shone on his face he was back in holy congregations as his old self. Bhai Hira Singh was thus a Blest Soul and rare jewel among Gurusikhs, with his spirit ever soaring.

The time came for my going to jail. Bhai Hira Singh Ji wished to join the first agitation with Jatha, but Will-Divine decided otherwise. He was preparing to receive the Jatha returning from Jail, when he suddenly received Call-Divine and departed for Abode-Divine. We were left behind as his love-lorn brethren. Now I wistfully look forward to join him in the hereafter! If justice is done to loving memory of Sri Sant Bhai Hira Singh, it would form a sizeable book. This is mere sampling of rich tribute that he deserves.

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Another example from the life of Bhai Sarwan Singh Phalewal:

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Close associates of Bhai Sarwan Singh had witnessed many unusual and super-natural happenings in his life. In spite of this exalted spiritual state, there appeared some defects, especially an imperceptible ego. Excessive praise led to this hidden malady gradually to bring about a change in him. I had been warning many of his admirers not to address him as “The Living Emancipated One” in his presence. According to Gurmat it is strictly forbidden to praise on the face and slander in the absence, yet the people did not refrain from praise in spite of the warning. As a result, Bhai Sarwan Singh suffered from suppressed ego, that kept building up and one day it exploded to the surface. Jatha was performing Akhand Kirtan of Asa-Di-// at Ambala Cantt Gurdwara for many days. One day Bhai Sarwan Singh was missing. He kept lying at the roof where we were housed along with some of his companions. I started missing the loved Kirtaniya. Finally, I requested his special friend, Babu Mal Singh Ji, to go and call Bhai Sarwan Singh. Babu Ji went and shook the lying, Bhai Sarwan Singh saying, “The entire congregation is missing you in Asa-Di-// Kirtan. The program is on and not finding you, people are restless.” With eyes closed and still lying down, Bhai Sarwan Singh replied, “The Asa-Di // Kirtan is going on in my mind.” Stunned with this show of arrogance, Babu Mal Singh Ji returned and repeated Bhai Sarwan Singh’s words to me. I again requested Babu Mal Singh and Bhai Piara Singh to try once again. Bhai Sarwan Singh was known to have very high respect for Bhai Piara Singh, yet again the original words were repeated by Bhai Sarwan Singh, that “I am enjoying Asa-Di-// program in my own mind.” Then Babu Mal Singh Ji remarked, “What is this assembly in your mind without the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib?” Both reminded him, that with Sri Guru Granth Sahib in his cottage, he calls the cottage a Gurdwara and not a mere cottage. This led to further insolent talk under the maddening pride and ego, like “For me a Mandir, Masjid and Gurdwara are all same. I will destroy the cottage at Phalewal and get rid of your Sri Guru Granth Sahib.” Hearing this tasteless talk, both of them returned to the Gurdwara. At the end of the program his words were brought to the notice of the entire assembly. All confirmed that his words amounted to blasphemy. His ego had finished him. The only way to save him through correctional punishment was to boycott him from the Jatha completely. None from Jatha was to have any dealing with him. This was the Gurmata passed unanimously. Bhai Sarwan Singh thus fell down from the pinnacle of spirituality. All boycotted him, except for two Singhs meeting him secretly. Those were his close friends. These two were summoned and warned that any further contacts with the boycotted Sarwan Singh would lead to their own boycott. Both apologised and promised to abide by the ruling.

After this, his ego suffered a severe blow when left all alone. The realization dawned on him and he sought the shelter of the sangat, holy congregation. He started attending every samagam, lying among the shoes, suffering in the sun. A month passed by and no one took notice of him. Finally he dropped to his knees and cried for help. He said, “Let the congregation prescribe any punishment to me, but kindly grant me pardon.” It was unanimously decided that he should ride a donkey, with blackened face and a necklace of shoes around his neck, to go around the five villages while stating his act of blasphemy for which he was punished. He gladly accepted this punishment. This was the result of his past good deeds and his good fortune, that he obeyed the sangat. This is how he proceeded.

He borrowed a donkey from the village pot-maker, mixing oil with black soot he blackened the face, wore a shoe necklace around his neck and rode the donkey. He travelled through the five villagers Phalewal, Gujjarwal, Narangwal, Lohgarh and Mehma Singh Wala. Unmindful of his high family background, he would stop every now and then to own his act, which had invited the punishment. When he came to Narangwal, a program of the Jatha was in progress at my house. My mother came out crying to embrace him, she made him get off from the donkey and brought him before the holy congregation. All were moved by this sight. I was asked to clean his face and seat him in this congregation. It took an hour to clean the face and his cleaned face acquired the glowing cleanliness. The new sight of splendour on his face was difficult to bear. He looked a picture of humility. He spent the rest of his days in a high spiritual state, observing the code of Bibek of Sarb Loh. He served the congregation with ten fold more enthusiasm.

Bhai Sarwan Singh was now respected a hundred times more in the sangat and yet he remained humble, without any show of his super-natural Divine powers. He remained imbued with Divine Love. Meanwhile the Divine took me to a term of life imprisonment. It was in my absence, that my dearest brother, Vir Sarwan Singh passed away. I have no news of how he died. This piece is a homage to the sacred memory of Bhai Sarwan Singh.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Singh132 Sahib, I think you and I are more or less in agreement...hence the stipulation of how the Sikh and the Guru are different in my initial response. The soul that is found in the Guru and the Sikh is the same, but the Guru has the distinction of laying down the path and the Sikh to follow it. However, you must admit that Gurbani does pose the similarity that the soul of both the Sikh and the Guru are the same...that of the Almighty.

It seems that I am highlighting one aspect (the same soul) and you are highlighting the other aspect (Guru-Sikh delineation). Thus...

[Singh132]

If you are proposing that the Guru and Gursikh are "same but different", I would agree. As bani tells us, Guru Sahib resides in his Gursiks and works through them. But as you've noted and I've tried to highlight, a Sikh can never claim or try to be equal of Satguru.