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Lion(LK)King

Yeah ok, well I don’t purport to be an expert on Banis and page references. The point is that you know it is there.

In response I have read it many times. A Sadhu is Sadhu (a holy man), that is the common language meaning of the word. You don’t need to go to Punjab University for that. Ask anyone on the street and you will get the same response. In the English translations of Gurubani it has been misstated as meaning Sadh Sangat. But even if you accept it is Sadh Sangat, a Sadh again is a holy person. Sadh in actual fact is someone who has done Sadhnah (Baghtee).

Also, take this translation from – http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y

Maajh, Fifth Mehl: 5. - p. 101

naam a-ukhaDh mo ka-o saaDhoo dee-aa.

The Holy Saint has given me the Medicine of the Naam.

In this instance it has been translated correctly. If the word means general congregation then why is it understood to be different in common language?

It is not the Namdharies, Radhaswamies or Darshan Dassis who are twisting Gurubani, the onus is on the Sikhs to explain why this is being misread. If Sikhs want Sadhu to mean Sanghat because it is more in line with their beliefs, that’s fine. But please don’t accuse others of twisting Bani.

1- Nanakian philosophy (Gurmat) is completly different from Hindu mythology.. Just because Guru Ji used the word Singh -lion lol doesn't mean he copied it from an avtar of Vishnu. Jesus Christ, what's next - why was Guru Harkrishan Je's name Harkrishan.. the name probably exists in the vedas... does tha mean he's a vedist?

Nothing nonsensical about what I have stated. The point I make is that when something new comes out, there will always be some resonance from the past. The same is true about Sikhism and the point is made to those who accuse others of using their religion when much in their own beliefs has been taken from the past.

With regards to Singh / Lion, I won’t debate this as it is fairly common knowledge that the whole concept of Singh comes from Narsingh. Not just the name but from what happened historically. Please do you research. Just as the VULNERABLE child Saint Parladh was saved by Righteousness in the form of Vishnu manifesting as NarSingh to destroy the evil of Harnahshak, in the same way G. Gobind Singh Ji said my followers will be Singhs & take on the mantle of protecting the needy, the vulnerable, the Saints etc.

Also, to make references such as Hindu mythology denounces others beliefs as mere myths. I don’t think that is right. Especially, as the Guru (10th), acknowledges the 24 Incarnations.

2- The bani of Bhagat Kabir Ji per say, is not in Guru Sahib.. Only Dhur Ki Bani by Gurdev Pita ji can be found in Maharaj.

nonsensicle arguments.

Please revise.

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by that?? This further illustrates the point that I make above -

The Bani was revealed to Kabir and forms part of his substantial holy book referred to as the Granthvali. Sections of Kabir’s bani are repeated in the SGGSJi. It is the Sikhs who claim that you can only be a liberated Sikh upon taking Kandeh dhar Amrit and yet this is not supported by the scriptures of non Sikh contributors, (even if you claim it is supported in the Bani of the Gurus).

So who is twisting whose religion / scriptures??

mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan

Outside of sikhi, people can do what they want, they can have a plant as a guru for all sikhs care.

People outside of sikhi have no right to lecture sikhs on who their master's can be.

You do your thing and let sikhs do their thing.

I am merely responding to claims by Sikhs. With that thought in mind remember it is Sikhs;

who disrupt our meetings. In the 1980’s in Derby I think, an unarmed sevak for no reason at all had his nose half sliced off with a sword attack. No doubt that Sikh will be receiving a gold medal from the Guru.

sher_panjabi

'Baani Guru, Guru hai Baani. Vich Baani Amrit saarey…

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar [God's Name] is contained.' [Ang 982]

But of course the Bani is the Guru, after all it is a revelation of God. The Ambrosial Nectar is realised by some through kirtan.

That is not the issue here.

The question in play is where does Naam come from? Naam that enables us to attach ourselves to the subtle ‘Unhad Bani’ (the manifestation of Shabad Guru). Historically, it has come from Living Saints. Sikhs claim that for them it comes from the SGGSJi and accuse others of being fake, pakandi and all the rest of the garbage. But the onus is on Sikhs to explain why the opposite is stated in the SGGSJi??

The position of Sikhs can only be explained by misinterpreting words like Sadhu, Sadh & Sant etc.

Pakandi Baba

Hilarious is your utter ignorance. I tell you what, let me re-read a section of history to you with your blissful blinkered ignorance.

The 10th Guru said that he will make ‘One fight against Sava Lakh’, yet when he left Anandpur and was attacked he barely managed to save himself. It is ironic is it not to claim the strength of lions and yet not be prepared to go back and even save members of your own family, let alone your followers’. How can anyone claim faith in such an individual??

I think you get the point.

Guru Fateh.

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Naam is not "given" as you keep pointing out. Naam is not some tangible thing handed from a "sadhu" to a devotee. Naam is the essence of God. It is inside all of us. God is alakh, apaar, agam, agochar" infinte, indescribable, unfathomable. Anything which is an essence of God has the same guns or attributes of God, which are infinite. How could a sadhu give you this essence of God? This gift, this "naam" is not given, it is experienced, it is lived, it is felt.

What separates us from Naam, Gurbaani says Ego. What conquers ego? Baani says Haumai sabad jalai, the shabad destroys ego. So Naam is the ultimate reality, which is God, found through killing the ego through shabad guru. None of this happens without God's Grace or Kirpa. shabad guru is what destroys ego so why not go to the cure for ego which separates us from Naam,, Satnaam, rather than to a sadhu?

No where in all of this is the need for a "sadhu" Holy people do not give "naam" holy people point us towards God, not towards themselves.

And you say sadhu means someone who has done bhagati. well what does sri guru granth sahib say is sachi bhagati, or true devotion?

Sachi bhagti, man tan arap. True devotion is to offer the mind and body. To whom, to a sadhu, who is going to perish one day like all of us? No, offer your mind and body to akaal purakh, who never dies and is ever present.

Where does all this giaan come from? From a sadhu? No, from shabad guru sri guru granth sahib ji.

if your here for a serious debate then please do vichaar on these shabads:

nwnk kI Ardwis hY sc nwim suhylw ] (421-11, Awsw, mÚ 1)

naanak kee ardaas hai sach naam suhaylaa.

This is Nanak's prayer, that he may be adorned with the True Name.

Awpu gieAw soJI peI gur sbdI mylw ]1] rhwau ] (421-12, Awsw, mÚ 1)

aap ga-i-aa sojhee pa-ee gur sabdee maylaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

When self-conceit is eradicated, and understanding is obtained, one meets the Lord, through the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ijnI Awqmu cIinAw prmwqmu soeI ] (421-16, Awsw, mÚ 1)

jinee aatam cheeni-aa parmaatam so-ee.

Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.

eyko AMimRq ibrKu hY Plu AMimRqu hoeI ]6] (421-16, Awsw, mÚ 1)

ayko amrit birakh hai fal amrit ho-ee. ||6||

The One Lord is the tree of ambrosial nectar, which bears the ambrosial fruit. ||6||

AMimRq Plu ijnI cwiKAw sic rhy AGweI ] (421-17, Awsw, mÚ 1)

amrit fal jinee chaakhi-aa sach rahay aghaa-ee.

Those who taste the ambrosial fruit remain satisfied with Truth.

iqMnw Brmu n Bydu hY hir rsn rsweI ]7] (421-17, Awsw, mÚ 1)

tinnaa bharam na bhayd hai har rasan rasaa-ee. ||7||

They have no doubt or sense of separation - their tongues taste the divine taste. ||7||

fateh!

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nwm ibnw sBu jgu baurwnw sbdy haumY mwrI ] (568-19, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

naam binaa sabh jag ba-uraanaa sabday ha-umai maaree.

Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the whole world is insane; through the Shabad, the ego is conquered.

swcY sbid lwig miq aupjY gurmuiK nwmu sohwgo ] (568-19, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

saachai sabad laag mat upjai gurmukh naam sohaago.

Attached to the True Word of the Shabad, wisdom comes forth. The Gurmukh obtains the Naam, the Name of the Husband Lord.

nwnk sbid imlY Bau BMjnu hir rwvY msqik Bwgo ]3] (569-1, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

naanak sabad milai bha-o bhanjan har raavai mastak bhaago. ||3||

O Nanak, through the Shabad, one meets the Lord, the Destroyer of fear, and by the destiny written on her forehead, she enjoys Him. ||3||

KyqI vxju sBu hukmu hY hukmy mMin vifAweI rwm ] (569-1, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

khaytee vanaj sabh hukam hai hukmay man vadi-aa-ee raam.

All farming and trading is by Hukam of His Will; surrendering to the Lord's Will, glorious greatness is obtained.

gurmqI hukmu bUJIAY hukmy myil imlweI rwm ] (569-2, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

gurmatee hukam boojhee-ai hukmay mayl milaa-ee raam.

Under Guru's Instruction, one comes to understand the Lord's Will, and by His Will, he is united in His Union.

hukim imlweI shij smweI gur kw sbdu Apwrw ] (569-2, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

hukam milaa-ee sahj samaa-ee gur kaa sabad apaaraa.

By His Will, one merges and easily blends with Him. The Shabads of the Guru are incomparable.

scI vifAweI gur qy pweI scu svwrxhwrw ] (569-3, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

sachee vadi-aa-ee gur tay paa-ee sach savaaranhaaraa.

Through the Guru, true greatness is obtained, and one is embellished with Truth.

Bau BMjnu pwieAw Awpu gvwieAw gurmuiK myil imlweI ] (569-3, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

bha-o bhanjan paa-i-aa aap gavaa-i-aa gurmukh mayl milaa-ee.

He finds the Destroyer of fear, and eradicates his self-conceit; as Gurmukh, he is united in His Union.

khu nwnk nwmu inrMjnu Agmu Agocru hukmy rihAw smweI ]4]2] (569-4, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)

kaho naanak naam niranjan agam agochar hukmay rahi-aa samaa-ee. ||4||2||

Says Nanak, the Name of the immaculate, inaccessible, unfathomable Commander is permeating and pervading everywhere. ||4||2||

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PLease do vichaar on this shabad.

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This is for all Naamdharis, Nirankaris, Darshan Dasis, etc who exploit the Sikh concept of Naam:

Awsw mhlw 3 ] (427-9)

aasaa mehlaa 3.

Aasaa, Third Mehl:

sB nwvY no locdI ijsu ik®pw kry so pwey ] (427-9, Awsw, mÚ 3)

sabh naavai no lochdee jis kirpaa karay so paa-ay.

Everyone longs for the Name, but he alone receives it, unto whom the Lord shows His Mercy.

ibnu nwvY sBu duKu hY suKu iqsu ijsu mMin vswey ]1] (427-10, Awsw, mÚ 3)

bin naavai sabh dukh hai sukh tis jis man vasaa-ay. ||1||

Without the Name, there is only pain; he alone obtains peace, whose mind is filled with the Name. ||1||

qUM byAMqu dieAwlu hY qyrI srxweI ] (427-10, Awsw, mÚ 3)

tooN bay-ant da-i-aal hai tayree sarnaa-ee.

You are infinite and merciful; I seek Your Sanctuary.

gur pUry qy pweIAY nwmy vifAweI ]1] rhwau ] (427-11, Awsw, mÚ 3)

gur pooray tay paa-ee-ai naamay vadi-aa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

From the Perfect Guru, the glorious greatness of the Naam is obtained. ||1||Pause||

AMqir bwhir eyku hY bhu ibiD isRsit aupweI ] (427-11, Awsw, mÚ 3)

antar baahar ayk hai baho biDh sarisat upaa-ee.

Inwardly and outwardly, there is only the One Lord. He has created the world, with its many varieties.

hukmy kwr krwiedw dUjw iksu khIAY BweI ]2] (427-12, Awsw, mÚ 3)

hukmay kaar karaa-idaa doojaa kis kahee-ai bhaa-ee. ||2||

According to the Order of His Will, He makes us act. What else can we talk about, O Siblings of Destiny? ||2||

buJxw AbuJxw quDu kIAw ieh qyrI isir kwr ] (427-12, Awsw, mÚ 3)

bujh-naa abujh-naa tuDh kee-aa ih tayree sir kaar.

Knowledge and ignorance are all your making; You have control over these.

iekn@w bKisih myil lYih ieik drgh mwir kFy kUiVAwr ]3] (427-13, Awsw, mÚ 3)

iknHaa bakhsihi mayl laihi ik dargeh maar kadhay koorhi-aar. ||3||

Some, You forgive, and unite with Yourself; while others, the wicked, you strike down and drive out of Your Court. ||3||

ieik Duir pivq pwvn hih quDu nwmy lwey ] (427-13, Awsw, mÚ 3)

ik Dhur pavit paavan heh tuDh naamay laa-ay.

Some, from the very beginning, are pure and pious; You attach them to Your Name.

gur syvw qy suKu aUpjY scY sbid buJwey ]4] (427-14, Awsw, mÚ 3)

gur sayvaa tay sukh oopjai sachai sabad bujhaa-ay. ||4||

Serving the Guru, peace wells up; through the True Word of the Shabad, one comes to understand. ||4||

ieik kucl kucIl ivKlI pqy nwvhu Awip KuAwey ] (427-14, Awsw, mÚ 3)

ik kuchal kucheel vikhlee patay naavhu aap khu-aa-ay.

Some are crooked, filthy and vicious; the Lord Himself has led them astray from the Name.

nw En isiD n buiD hY n sMjmI iPrih auqvqwey ]5] (427-15, Awsw, mÚ 3)

naa on siDh na buDh hai na sanjmee fireh utvataa-ay. ||5||

They have no intuition, no understanding and no self-discipline; they wander around delirious. ||5||

ndir kry ijsu AwpxI iqs no BwvnI lwey ] (427-15, Awsw, mÚ 3)

nadar karay jis aapnee tis no bhaavnee laa-ay.

He grants faith to those whom He has blessed with His Glance of Grace.

squ sMqoKu ieh sMjmI mnu inrmlu sbdu suxwey ]6] (427-16, Awsw, mÚ 3)

sat santokh ih sanjmee man nirmal sabad sunaa-ay. ||6||

This mind finds truth, contentment and self-discipline, hearing the Immaculate Word of the Shabad. ||6||

lyKw piV n phUcIAY kiQ khxY AMqu n pwie ] (427-16, Awsw, mÚ 3)

laykhaa parh na pahoochee-ai kath kahnai ant na paa-ay.

By reading books, one cannot reach Him; by speaking and talking, His limits cannot be found.

gur qy kImiq pweIAY sic sbid soJI pwie ]7] (427-17, Awsw, mÚ 3)

gur tay keemat paa-ee-ai sach sabad sojhee paa-ay. ||7||

Through the Guru, His value is found; through the True Word of the Shabad, understanding is obtained. ||7||

iehu mnu dyhI soiD qUM gur sbid vIcwir ] (427-17, Awsw, mÚ 3)

ih man dayhee soDh tooN gur sabad veechaar.

So reform this mind and body, by contemplating the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

nwnk iesu dyhI ivic nwmu inDwnu hY pweIAY gur kY hyiq Apwir ]8]10]32] (427-18, Awsw, mÚ 3)

naanak is dayhee vich naam niDhaan hai paa-ee-ai gur kai hayt apaar. ||8||10||32||

O Nanak, within this body is the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; it is found through the Love of the Infinite Guru. ||8||10||32||

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mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan

Naam not a tangible thing

Which is why I say in my post above that the Naam from the Sadhu / Sant enables us to attach to the Unhad Bani which is the infinite Naam you are referring to. In once sense you are right in that the Sadhu points to the Agam Naam, but how? Not by sticking up signposts – but blessing the Bhagat with a Shabad or also referred to as Guru Mantar.

GuruBani speaks of Naam in these two ways and recognises the role of the Sadhu / Sant and God. Both have a role to play. Sant get us to Jap Naam and God gives us Mukhti.

Firstly – Spoken Naam given by the Sadhu

‘Kabir Seva meh Dhoeh (both) Bhaleh, Ik Sant, Ik Ram (God)

Ram joh Dhatah Mukhat Koh, Sant JAPAVAN Naam’

This is a reference to the tangible Naam, because the Sadhu cannot get us to Jap on the Agam Naam. That is something we achieve through our own devotion. The Sadhu Naam is the first rung of the ladder. Through regular meditation on this, you attach yourself to the Unhad Bani (the final rung of the ladder)

Secondly – Infinite Naam

This is at times referred to as Unhad Bani. Because it is Divine Melodious Sound. It does not have a form but is perceived by the Soul through regular devotion or contemplation on the tangible Naam. You are right this is already within all of us, but to activate it we require the Guru Manter from one who is already attached.

The Perishable

Of course the Sadhu dies. In the World of five elements, nothing is stable. The Sikh Gurus are also not around today, the physical form of the SGGSJi also comes to pass. The physical self is merely a point of focus that leads to attachment to the Jyort to which the Gurus were attached and to which a Perfect Sant Mahapurash is also attached. This is the proper way to understand the Gurus. It is the Jyort that is the Guru not the physical body.

Sachi Bhagtee

Again the devotion is to the Jyort. The physical form is merely a beacon to a stricken ship. Otherwise, we must accept that those Sikhs who showed utter devotion to the Sikh Gurus wasted their time, simply because they are not around today.

In conclusion, we are back to the original question, do we misread words like Sadhu or do we read the the Guru Bani to understand that it recognises the two roles. That of a Sadhu and that of God. The choice is yours.

What is Sachi Bhagtee

In answer to your question and with regards to the passages you quote – (p427 -9)

Sachee Bhagtee is Unadulterated Devotion. Just as a virgin bride celebrates her Sahaag at the feet of her Husband, the Soul Bride celebrates her union with her Beloved Creator.

‘Atam moheh Parmathma, perah (feet) Sath Sadah Sahaagan’ To achieve this union we must be prepared to do the ultimate battle, not with unarmed people outside, but with the Universal Enemy (the Mind and its Henchmen).

This is how we must demonstrate Warriorhood. Hence, ‘Bhagtee Kareh Koi Soormah, Jaath Varn Kul Koe, Khamee, Khrodee, Lalchee, Inseh Bhagtee Nah Hohee’

Exploitation of Sikh Naam

Firstly, Naam is mentioned in the Banis of Non Sikh Saints that forms part of the SGGSJi. The SGGSJi was not around for them to be able to take advantage of Satnaam, so ask yourself where did they get their Naam from??

Secondly, the Scriptures state that

‘Shabad Durtee, Shabad Akas, Shabad Shabad Bhaya Bharkas’

(Apologies if I misstate the words in the above line), what this is saying is that all of creation emanates from the Shabad (Infinite Naam). Since this was around at the dawn of time, how can anyone be exploiting the Sikh religion.

WaheGuru Je Ka Khalsa

WaheGuru Je Ke Fateh

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B 'Darshan Daas follower'1 Jee,

Both have a role to play. Sant get us to Jap Naam and God gives us Mukhti.

That is true, but the physical form of a Sant that is referred to in Gurbani at times is the one who enlightens people to follow Gurmat, receive Amrit and reiterate the name of Vaheguroo. A Sant is one that attaches a being to worship the one Akaal Purakh and accept Sahib Sree Guroo Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj as their one and only master, the living SathGuroo, not attach any person to their own feet and to worship them.

Someone who labels themselves as a Sant, distorts Sikhi and attaches people to their own feet to be worshiped, is not any Sant in Sikhi, but a Gudhaar Pappee of the Panth!

These organisations and those who head them are not faiths or “ways of living” (what Radha Soami's claim), but cults funded and supported by enemies of the Panth.

Please do not cause confusion and misunderstanding by trying to compare a Manmukh self-proclaimed “SathGuroo” to Vaheguroo Dhe Pyare Sant Mahapurkhs of the Sikh Panth.

d_oh.gifVaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Phateh!!! d_oh.gif

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but to activate it we require the Guru Manter from one who is already attached.

sir,

I can tell from your post that either you are very brainwashed or refuse to see the truth which you keep exposing in your posts. You are on the right track but refuse to listen to your own words.

You say that one needs gurmantr to contemplate or experience Naam. What do you think The shabads from Sri guru granth sahib are? They are Dhur ki Baani, God's own worsd, what gurmantr are you searching for? The gurmantr you are looking for is used from Sri Guru Granth sahib by your "masters" and fake gurus. How are thes modern sadhus masters when they give you Gurmantr from Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

And I agree the concept of Naam is etrnal and is not limited to Sikhi. However, who gave the saints like bhagat Kabir Ji their due respect? Sikhs carry the baani of al the bhagats on their heads and bow to it. Sri Guru nanank Dev ji made sure that Bhagat kabir Ji's baani and other bhagats baani was worshipped by all and their names are attributed to the resepctive baanis. Our Guru Sahibs had no ill intentions whereas fake masters today use baani from sri guru granth sahib and make people bow to them.

Sikhs do not need to be taught how to resepct saints. We carry the saroop of Guru maharj on our heads, we wave a chaur sahib like over it like a King and people like you cannot teach sikhs how to respect saints. Saints are human beings, baani is God's light. Who respects the shabad more than sikhs, no one.

peace.

I'm done. It is in waaheguru's kirpa. some of us find the real satguru and others will go from door to door begging, not realizing the shabad guru is right there in front of them.

Fateh!

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but to activate it we require the Guru Manter from one who is already attached.

sir,

I can tell from your post that either you are very brainwashed or refuse to see the truth which you keep exposing in your posts. You are on the right track but refuse to listen to your own words.

You say that one needs gurmantr to contemplate or experience Naam. What do you think The shabads from Sri guru granth sahib are? They are Dhur ki Baani, God's own worsd, what gurmantr are you searching for? The gurmantr you are looking for is used from Sri Guru Granth sahib by your "masters" and fake gurus. How are thes modern sadhus masters when they give you Gurmantr from Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

And I agree the concept of Naam is etrnal and is not limited to Sikhi. However, who gave the saints like bhagat Kabir Ji their due respect? Sikhs carry the baani of al the bhagats on their heads and bow to it. Sri Guru nanank Dev ji made sure that Bhagat kabir Ji's baani and other bhagats baani was worshipped by all and their names are attributed to the resepctive baanis. Our Guru Sahibs had no ill intentions whereas fake masters today use baani from sri guru granth sahib and make people bow to them.

Sikhs do not need to be taught how to resepct saints. We carry the saroop of Guru maharj on our heads, we wave a chaur sahib like over it like a King and people like you cannot teach sikhs how to respect saints. Saints are human beings, baani is God's light. Who respects the shabad more than sikhs, no one.

peace.

I'm done. It is in waaheguru's kirpa. some of us find the real satguru and others will go from door to door begging, not realizing the shabad guru is right there in front of them.

Fateh!

I couldn't have said it better myself!! :TH:

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Nirvair Khalsa Ji,

Quote:

That is true, but the physical form of a Sant that is referred to in Gurbani at times is the one who enlightens people to follow Gurmat, receive Amrit and reiterate the name of Vaheguroo. A Sant is one that attaches a being to worship the one Akaal Purakh and accept Sahib Sree Guroo Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj as their one and only master, the living SathGuroo, not attach any person to their own feet and to worship them.

But my dear Nirvair Khalsa Ji,

Firstly, at no point have I lectured to you but merely endeavored to give a fuller meaningful reply that I hope adds some value to the debate. Please do not make claims that I am distorting Sikhi, if there are alternate meanings, then lets please hear them.

Whilst I agree that a Sant is one that attaches worship to God and not himself I disagree on other points

1) What you seem to be missing is that it is the SGGSJi that is directing us to go to Sants / Sadhs, why would it do that if all that was meant to happen was for the Sant / Sadh to send us straight back to the SGGSJi??

Just to take one quote from many as to why the SGGSJi directs us to go to the Sant / Sadh….

‘Sadh sang bhae aagiaakaaree, Saadh sang gat bhaee hamaaree’ (In the company of Saints, we become capable of obeying God’s commandments. In the company of Saints we are eternally delilvered.)

2) It is the SGGSJi that affords Sant / Sadhs the treatment as if they are on a par with God. I know Sikhs have a hangover about matha tekking to Saints, but it is the SGGSJi that says 'Charan Sadh ke dhoe dhoe peeo, Arap sadh kau apana jeeo' (Wash the feet of holy Saints and drink the wash, dedicate your life to the holy Saint)

3) Clearly, the status being afforded to the living Guru / Saint / Sadh in the SGGSJi and in the Bani of Saints not included in the SGGSJi is to treat them on a par with God. But more importantly, your view of what a Saint should do is not supported by the SGGSJi. It is completely at odds with what is written in the SGGSJi.

Quote:

Someone who labels themselves as a Sant, distorts Sikhi and attaches people to their own feet to be worshiped, is not any Sant in Sikhi, but a Gudhaar Pappee of the Panth!

4) You seem to be missing that Sants come from all backgrounds. Muslim, Hindu, Sikhs etc. Just because the SGGSJi has been installed it does not mean that they are papee for doing what culturally has gone on for 1000s of years and has the stamp of approval of SGGSJi.

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These organisations and those who head them are not faiths or “ways of living” (what Radha Soami's claim), but cults funded and supported by enemies of the Panth.

I speak for Maharaz Darshan Das Ji. Anybody with half a brain who bothers to do a little study on his material & miracles performed can only come to one conclusion that the Man is a Prophet of God.

5) Ps I noticed you didn’t refer to me by my name. What a joke I must say, you might have a point if the Singh name was something Sikhs could claim a right to. Singh was in use for 100’s if not 1000’s of years before Sikhs came to be. Sadly, it is quite typical for people of all religion to reduce common heritage to a state of personal wealth.

mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan

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sir,

I can tell from your post that either you are very brainwashed or refuse to see the truth which you keep exposing in your posts. You are on the right track but refuse to listen to your own words.

We both know that is not true. There may be fake masters, but that is not a reason for ignoring what is clearly stated in the SGGSJi.

Quote:

You say that one needs gurmantr to contemplate or experience Naam. What do you think The shabads from Sri guru granth sahib are? They are Dhur ki Baani, God's own worsd, what gurmantr are you searching for? The gurmantr you are looking for is used from Sri Guru Granth sahib by your "masters" and fake gurus. How are thes modern sadhus masters when they give you Gurmantr from Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

Again, these are not reasons for not doing what is stated in the SGGSJi. It is no good ignoring other sections of the SGGSJi. Bani should be read in unison.

As for modern Sadhus, it is nonsensical to imply that post installation of SGGSJi there can never be any further Sants / Sadhus who are enlightened Mahapurash.

Peace.

Fateh.

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The 10th Guru said that he will make ‘One fight against Sava Lakh’, yet when he left Anandpur and was attacked he barely managed to save himself. It is ironic is it not to claim the strength of lions and yet not be prepared to go back and even save members of your own family, let alone your followers’. How can anyone claim faith in such an individual??

lol let me point something out ji.

a) They were attacked by surprise. The Mughal emporer had broken his oath on the QURAN and attacked the Singhs from behind.

b) Why wasn't Guru Ji's Army completely destroyed in one instance if each Singh couldn't fight Sava Lackh soldiers???

c) He accepted Waheguru's Sweet Will when his 2 younger sons were shaheed. And he HIMSELF sent his sons into battle to marry death - Will ur maharaaz do that?

He didn't protect his family. Infact, he SACRIFICED them for the KAUM.

Let me tell you a quick Sakhi...

After Chamkaur Sahib's battle, Guru ji walked on the battlefield, looked at his sons dead on the ground and walked on. Deya Singh called Guru Ji from behind and said "Guru Ji! Wont you even cover your sons' bodies? I shall do it then.."

Guru Ji said "No Deya. If you going to cover my sons' bodies, then you'll have to cover the rest of the Singhs's dead bodies."

Deya Singh Ji was in tears and said "but people will think - Guru Ji didn't even care about his own sons!"

Guru Ji replied "I dont care whatever poeple say.. But whatever happens, I don't want poeple to say - The Guru thought his sons were different and his Sikhs were different. I see no difference between them. I don't want Sikhi to be stained with this, so Deya Singh Ji, don't cover Sahibzaades' Bodies."

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In reply to the above quote, want to add that Guru Ji did have one sikh fight sava lakh. Guru Ji did not 'barely manage to escape' but left under the hukam of the Panj Pyare (correct me if I am wrong) which means Guru Ji was going to stay and then maybe even fight. When one understands that Guru Ji treated their family and sikhs as one then one begins to understand why I claim to have faith in and love for Guru Ji ( not any normal individual I don't think).

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In reply to the above quote, want to add that Guru Ji did have one sikh fight sava lakh. Guru Ji did not 'barely manage to escape' but left under the hukam of the Panj Pyare (correct me if I am wrong) which means Guru Ji was going to stay and then maybe even fight. When one understands that Guru Ji treated their family and sikhs as one then one begins to understand why I claim to have faith in and love for Guru Ji ( not any normal individual I don't think).

lol let me point something out ji.

Learn to read between the lines. That was put up to silence that prat persona who seems to have nothing original to say but uses his brain when it suits him.

If you have something to say against the points made above, then lets please hear them???

Fateh

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I don't see what the issue is. It is clear that militant SIkhs havn't been involved in shooting innocent religious leaders in the 80's-90's, and don't see why they would now. The Link in my previous post sheds some light on why they might have decided to get rid of him. You have completly ignored that.

159827[/snapback]

i do apologise, i havent ignored ur post above.

u have pointed out on why they have shot Darshan Das, but in the minds of the killers he was guilty so for that reason they shot him. and this belief of the killers and those behind it, is a personal belief and not based on solid fact ...ie: that he was bad mouthing Sikhi. so therefore in ur peoples eyes he was shot cos he was guilty of watever the rumours are....but the FACT is that.... you dont no that for a FACT....

apologies LK if that sounds abit wishy washy... its the end of the day!

Darshan das was shot as he was aginst the so callled khalistanism at that time.

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WJKK WJKF

well i dunno much about this guy.....havent really even heard of him...but i went to google and typed in his name and i went onto one site....and there was a pic of this so called maharaj and below da pic it sed "nanak naam chardi kala"....and below that it sed click here for "blessings"....LOL so i clicked on it and you see da pic changin and its da same maharaj but this time he's holding his hand up....you know how there are pics uv guru nanak dev ji and he has his hand to the side with a mala around it....same way he had his hand like that(no mala though)and there were flowers fallin down and below him it said "nanak naam chardi kala,tere bhane sarbat da bhala"....and on top it said get online ashirwaad..... LOL.gif it was so funny....LOLz...wow i actually got a blessing from some maharaj LOL.gif ...ok i jus thought it was kinda weird and dumb and funny...no offence...but like....they call him "satguru darshan dham"....wow....LOLz...he calls himself satguru.....who da heck duz he think he is?or was? :@ anywayz...bhul chuk muaf ji

WJKK WJKF

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Lion(LK)King

Yeah ok, well I don’t purport to be an expert on Banis and page references. The point is that you know it is there.

In response I have read it many times. A Sadhu is Sadhu (a holy man), that is the common language meaning of the word. You don’t need to go to Punjab University for that. Ask anyone on the street and you will get the same response. In the English translations of Gurubani it has been misstated as meaning Sadh Sangat. But even if you accept it is Sadh Sangat, a Sadh again is a holy person. Sadh in actual fact is someone who has done Sadhnah (Baghtee).

Also, take this translation from – http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y

Maajh, Fifth Mehl: 5. - p. 101

naam a-ukhaDh mo ka-o saaDhoo dee-aa.

The Holy Saint has given me the Medicine of the Naam.

In this instance it has been translated correctly. If the word means general congregation then why is it understood to be different in common language?

It is not the Namdharies, Radhaswamies or Darshan Dassis who are twisting Gurubani, the onus is on the Sikhs to explain why this is being misread. If Sikhs want Sadhu to mean Sanghat because it is more in line with their beliefs, that’s fine. But please don’t accuse others of twisting Bani.

1- Nanakian philosophy (Gurmat) is completly different from Hindu mythology.. Just because Guru Ji used the word Singh -lion lol doesn't mean he copied it from an avtar of Vishnu. Jesus Christ, what's next - why was Guru Harkrishan Je's name Harkrishan.. the name probably exists in the vedas... does tha mean he's a vedist?

Nothing nonsensical about what I have stated. The point I make is that when something new comes out, there will always be some resonance from the past. The same is true about Sikhism and the point is made to those who accuse others of using their religion when much in their own beliefs has been taken from the past.

With regards to Singh / Lion, I won’t debate this as it is fairly common knowledge that the whole concept of Singh comes from Narsingh. Not just the name but from what happened historically. Please do you research. Just as the VULNERABLE child Saint Parladh was saved by Righteousness in the form of Vishnu manifesting as NarSingh to destroy the evil of Harnahshak, in the same way G. Gobind Singh Ji said my followers will be Singhs & take on the mantle of protecting the needy, the vulnerable, the Saints etc.

Also, to make references such as Hindu mythology denounces others beliefs as mere myths. I don’t think that is right. Especially, as the Guru (10th), acknowledges the 24 Incarnations.

2- The bani of Bhagat Kabir Ji per say, is not in Guru Sahib.. Only Dhur Ki Bani by Gurdev Pita ji can be found in Maharaj.

nonsensicle arguments.

Please revise.

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by that?? This further illustrates the point that I make above -

The Bani was revealed to Kabir and forms part of his substantial holy book referred to as the Granthvali. Sections of Kabir’s bani are repeated in the SGGSJi. It is the Sikhs who claim that you can only be a liberated Sikh upon taking Kandeh dhar Amrit and yet this is not supported by the scriptures of non Sikh contributors, (even if you claim it is supported in the Bani of the Gurus).

So who is twisting whose religion / scriptures??

mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan

Outside of sikhi, people can do what they want, they can have a plant as a guru for all sikhs care.

People outside of sikhi have no right to lecture sikhs on who their master's can be.

You do your thing and let sikhs do their thing.

I am merely responding to claims by Sikhs. With that thought in mind remember it is Sikhs;

who disrupt our meetings. In the 1980’s in Derby I think, an unarmed sevak for no reason at all had his nose half sliced off with a sword attack. No doubt that Sikh will be receiving a gold medal from the Guru.

sher_panjabi

'Baani Guru, Guru hai Baani. Vich Baani Amrit saarey…

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar [God's Name] is contained.' [Ang 982]

But of course the Bani is the Guru, after all it is a revelation of God. The Ambrosial Nectar is realised by some through kirtan.

That is not the issue here.

The question in play is where does Naam come from? Naam that enables us to attach ourselves to the subtle ‘Unhad Bani’ (the manifestation of Shabad Guru). Historically, it has come from Living Saints. Sikhs claim that for them it comes from the SGGSJi and accuse others of being fake, pakandi and all the rest of the garbage. But the onus is on Sikhs to explain why the opposite is stated in the SGGSJi??

The position of Sikhs can only be explained by misinterpreting words like Sadhu, Sadh & Sant etc.

Pakandi Baba

Hilarious is your utter ignorance. I tell you what, let me re-read a section of history to you with your blissful blinkered ignorance.

The 10th Guru said that he will make ‘One fight against Sava Lakh’, yet when he left Anandpur and was attacked he barely managed to save himself. It is ironic is it not to claim the strength of lions and yet not be prepared to go back and even save members of your own family, let alone your followers’. How can anyone claim faith in such an individual??

I think you get the point.

Guru Fateh.

BHAJI THIS is first time i logged on to this forum, the above example tht u hv given to Pakandi baba ws so impressive. i m a follower of Maharaz Darshan das & i m proud 2 say as i wud nt b wht i m today if i wudnt hv followed him. One simple example to all of my friends is that its upto u, how u find him(God) .....he is everywhere .....if Dhanna Jatt can find him from a Mitti da bawa........then ucan too.

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