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Kirpan And Aeroplane


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Sat Sri Akal:

The following five K's are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H's which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H's. Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly forbidden. (Sri Dasam Granth)

(Gurmukhi version is at: http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_basicsfivek.htm ).

I believe that the words speak for themselves.

Thanks for the link, dude.

Just to quote the thing about the kirpan:

"Those who never depart his/her arms, they are the Khalsa with excellent rehats."

(Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh ji, p.148)

Okay, I think there's a difference between "never" and "never". Assuming that a Khalsa in 17th century India, where he nor she was ever truly safe (we were commanding guerilla-type warfare at the time) was the environment in which they were living is sightly different from today. It was designed as a mode of security and a form of honourable living. But removing a kirpan temporarily whilst in the sky - where the safety and peace of mind of every passenger is supposed to be the number one priority (there are security personnel travelling in disguise on flights) - I'm sure that Guru-ji would know that there would be nothing wrong with this. I don't think that international commercial airliners were even a dream 300 years ago, were they? grin.gif

Theres a simple procedure i follow:

1. Ardaas (ask for ability to remain steadfast and shastardhari)

2. 5 Chaupai Saahibs (for protection)

3. 5 Japji Sahibs (ability to remain Guroo Saahibs sevak)

4. Ardaas (for protection and ability to be Guroo Saahibs sevak and for the Bani recited)

5. Final Chaupai Saahib as I walk through metal dectectors.

Hm. For a God that is supposed to have no correlation to human interested linked with fear and emnity and is One with everything including us (ref Mool Mantra, of course), there's an awful lot of 'asking' and a willingness to be 'protected' going on, isn't there? grin.gif

Since recieving Amrit I have been blessed with the ability to board an aircraft without having to remove my kakaar.

Yeah. What page of the Dassam Granth was that line on again...? :mellow:

Like I said, its about shardaa and having faith that Maharaj will take care of everything....

wjkkwjkp!

Yeah. I have "faith that Maharaj will take care of everything", and that he has given me a mind to allow me to ensure that this is precisely what happens :TH:

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wjkkwjkp!

I think it goes on Shardaa...

I think most (if not all) those who have posted so far agree that taking off your kakaar is acceptable when boarding a plane.

Im not going to make a judgement as some of my close family/friends have the same views.

However, what i will say is that after 5 years of an amritdhari lifestyle and after a number of flights NOT ONCE have i had to remove my kakaar. Call it luck, plain ignorance or Maharaj's Kirpa or whatever, but facts are facts.

Theres a simple procedure i follow:

1. Ardaas (ask for ability to remain steadfast and shastardhari)

2. 5 Chaupai Saahibs (for protection)

3. 5 Japji Sahibs (ability to remain Guroo Saahibs sevak)

4. Ardaas (for protection and ability to be Guroo Saahibs sevak and for the Bani recited)

5. Final Chaupai Saahib as I walk through metal dectectors.

Since recieving Amrit I have been blessed with the ability to board an aircraft without having to remove my kakaar.

Like I said, its about shardaa and having faith that Maharaj will take care of everything....

wjkkwjkp!

Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors..

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

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Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors...

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

Rubber kirpan, perhaps? But isn't that pretty much useless? :@

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

Man, I gotta remove my belt, my kara, my watch, my keys and my wallet. I don't mind removing my kara. It's not like my actions have suddenly become ignoble or something.

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Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors...

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

Rubber kirpan, perhaps? But isn't that pretty much useless? :@

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

Man, I gotta remove my belt, my kara, my watch, my keys and my wallet. I don't mind removing my kara. It's not like my actions have suddenly become ignoble or something.

i know at smaller regional airfields and strips that it would not pose much of a concern for the officials, as it's not usually boarding with 100+ people...

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Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA

A rubber or wood Kirpan LOL.gif is the only one I can think of that you wear or you mean you were flying a remote control airplane then.

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Sat Sri Akal:

"Okay, I think there's a difference between "never" and "never". Assuming that a Khalsa in 17th century India, where he nor she was ever truly safe (we were commanding guerilla-type warfare at the time) was the environment in which they were living is sightly different from today. It was designed as a mode of security and a form of honourable living. But removing a kirpan temporarily whilst in the sky - where the safety and peace of mind of every passenger is supposed to be the number one priority (there are security personnel travelling in disguise on flights) - I'm sure that Guru-ji would know that there would be nothing wrong with this. I don't think that international commercial airliners were even a dream 300 years ago, were they?"

First of all, if one watches the news, it is becoming very apparent that there is no safe place for a Sikh. From the hate crimes to outright genocide, if someone here believes that the world is somehow a safe haven for Sikhs, they are kidding themselves. And if someone here thinks that the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed, then you have only to look at Darfur, Sudan and other major world genocides to realize that the Khalsa is just as needed as today. Regardless of what we can rationalize and do to make our minds at ease, it is a violation of Rehat, but the Sikhs are in a position of helplessness in this situation. I am sure the Guru will forgive...that is why the Guru is the Guru...but the Rehat is not negotiable...sorry.

And one thing...if anyone wants to tread the path of Sikhi, never ever try to assume that the Gurus could not have "dreamed" of airliners 300 years ago or know all the difficulties that the Sikhs would have to go through. The Guru and the Almighty are One, and both are beyond the mental constraints of time and space. It is we who are ignorant enough to reduce them to our mentality without realizing that what the Gurus have outlined is beyond such mortal time-constraints as we percieve the world in. So when you make a comment like the Gurus not knowing what is going to happen in 300 years, realize that you are reducing the Guru to your and my mental level. And I for one certainly cannot compose the Guru Granth Sahib or make a Khalsa Panth...if you can, I am listening.

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perhaps we've all (me included) gotten extrmely confused between the issue of "SAFETY" and the issue of "SECURITY".

No one is ever safe.... not sleeping overnight..not walking down the street...you're never SAFE because safety implies a 100% guarantee that no harm can be done.

SECURITY in my eyes is more about having control of a situation, and taking care of issues so that every situation can remain under control.

There IS a difference. If EVERYONE was carrying a knife on them on a plane, would you question your safety more than if everyone didn't? Yes, because there would be less control...you could contorl your own actions but you have no say as to what someone else does with their knife. The situation is not secure.

It's like before police go into a bulding with a hundred cons wit htheir rifles...they "secure" the building before entering...does that mean they'lll be 100% safe? most definitely not... but it means that they have a better understanding , and more contorl of the situation than if they jus run in there without any premeditation.

Maybe you're all right..maybe we're not contributing to the SAFETY of others, but we ARE contributing to the security. This is where the broken bottle as a weapon argument falls through, too. If we allow kirpans/knives/so on so forth, AND allow glass bottles....is that situation MORE UNDER CONTROL or LESS UNDER CONTROL in terms of POTENTIAL negative/violent occurrences?

And maybe it's a positive thing ot be discussing this... Frankly I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but Im' worried about the safety and security of the general public, not just me and my fellow sikhs. That's why i'm saying, if I am helping a situation be MORE under control by not wearing my kirpan, I truly, and fully believe i am contributing positively.

After all, i'm sure most of us don't want to condescend the kirpan as jsut a symbol..most of us believe it is what it is...a weapon for the defenseless.... If we want it to be recognized as a weapon, then maybe we should be aware of the treatment that it gets.

We can't be hypocrits, really... we can't say "well when we're on a plane..it's a symbol...but when i'm walkin the sterets..it's a weapon"...inconsistency ni such a matter, to me, is ignorance.

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Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA

No one is ever safe.... not sleeping overnight..not walking down the street...you're never SAFE because safety implies a 100% guarantee that no harm can be done.

If you recite Kirtan Sohila and do Ardas before bed you are perfectly safe with a forcefield around you to keep you safe.

The story of when Bhai Lehna was going to massage Guru Nanaks feet and he saw Guru Jis feet bleeding all of a sudden. BhaiJi {Guru Angad before being renamed and being bestowed Guruship} asked what is wrong your feet are bleeding did you step on something? are you hurting?

GuruJi said see that man plowing his field and reading from the Gutka. BhaiJi said "yes." GuruJi said"go get him." He is stepping on thorns while reading Gurbani and I have absorbed the thorns he is stepping on.

Nanak told the man " You are readinh Kirtan Sohila at the wrong time, you should read it before bed and then do ardas { it wasnt the same as Guru Hargobinds ardas, it was shorter and not laid out exactly, but was similar}

If you want to hear the story about the force field { email me } and youll have to wait till tommorow because its time for Kirtan Sohila for me and then Im going to bed.

I bow to the Shabad Guru d_oh.gif

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A rubber or wood Kirpan LOL.gif is the only one I can think of that you wear or you mean you were flying a remote control airplane then.

i mean regional airports, we have one here in vernon and its very small, and the flights don't have metal detectors.. ive seen the place. Heck, around here, people smuggle drugs into the region with planes cause it's so easy... what's wrong with you PRITAM SINGH, i hope you not always this weird... :@

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The KIRPAN in the first instance is there for protection - not protection of our own lives, but for the benefit of others. We dont wear kirpans to "symbolise" or "advertise" Sikhi. Therefore, if we should be defending the well-being of others, the kirpan is not the only weapon we can use. Theres no point in wearing a kirpan and not knowing how to use it. And if you train properly in how to use it, you will learn the art of combat with many other items apart from a kirpan. A ball point pen can be deadly if you know how to use it. Your hands alone can kill someone in seconds.

My point is, dont focus too much on wearing a kirpan on a plane as a symbol. We are here to defend righteousness and we should be trained beyond the kirpan to do that. There is no point boarding a plane with a kirpan and not knowing how to use it like a lot of people are guilty of. Learn the art of shaster vidhiya / gatka and learn how to become a true modern day warrior

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