"western" Sikhs?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Well, indian culture is different from Sikh/Khalsa culture. Indian culture = dowry, kiling daughters, wasting money on drugs, wasting money on useless rituals and ceremonies, etc. etc.

Indian culture is also messed up by bollywood.

Khalsa culture is what Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches.

Lionchild, I am sorry but learning Gurmukhi/Punjabi is neccesary to spread the faith to kids. You won't get the amrit of reciting Gurbani unless, you do so in Gurmukhi. Gurmukhi script is called Gurmukhi because it comes from Guru. However, clothing is your choice as long as you got the 5 kakkar and Turban. Rehat is also the other main thing. Bana is 5 Kakkar and Turban, while Bani is Gurbani as written by Gurus.

[Lionchild]

Lionchild, I am sorry but learning Gurmukhi/Punjabi is neccesary to spread the faith to kids.

no... the principles and basics of sikhi must be spread to our kids... what language is up to the parents and up to each person. Gurmukhi/Punjabi is a language/communication... that the gurus did use yes, but did not say that it was the only way to talk to god and spread sikhi... how can you spread sikhi to chinese peopel with punjabi? @

[Lion(LK)King]

Lionchild..why do you tihnk the Gurus invented Gurmukhi?

If language is completly irrelevant (I agree...learning Gurmukhi will not amke you a brahmgyani..nor will not learning Gurmukih take a a lot further from Vaheguru)..

Why Would the Guru spend time on inventing Gurmukhi..when he coudl have used that time for translating the Gurbani into other languages

[Lionchild]

Lionchild..why do you tihnk the Gurus invented Gurmukhi?

If language is completly irrelevant (I agree...learning Gurmukhi will not amke you a brahmgyani..nor will not learning Gurmukih take a a lot further from Vaheguru)..

Why Would the Guru spend time on inventing Gurmukhi..when he coudl have used that time for translating the Gurbani into other languages

cause there wasnt a need for it yet... what would be the point of spreading sikhi in it's early years? sikhi community was not mature enough to start spreading to other places of the earth. And language is not irrelevant, it along with culture compliment but are not part with sikhi... we need cloths to wear to gurdwara, and language to communicate with others. So these things compliment, but not mix. If people try too, then we create confusion and barriers.

[Lion(LK)King]

Lionchild..why do you tihnk the Gurus invented Gurmukhi?

If language is completly irrelevant (I agree...learning Gurmukhi will not amke you a brahmgyani..nor will not learning Gurmukih take a a lot further from Vaheguru)..

Why Would the Guru spend time on inventing Gurmukhi..when he coudl have used that time for translating the Gurbani into other languages

cause there wasnt a need for it yet... what would be the point of spreading sikhi in it's early years? sikhi community was not mature enough to start spreading to other places of the earth. And language is not irrelevant, it along with culture compliment but are not part with sikhi... we need cloths to wear to gurdwara, and language to communicate with others. So these things compliment, but not mix. If people try too, then we create confusion and barriers.

Brother I disagree with your logic. Did Not Guru Nanak Dev Ji go arounda and preach? Did onot Guru Amar Das Ji send people to preach? To say that Sikhi wasn't mature to start spreading is absurd. Just on Guru Nanak Dev Ji's tours..we can see how many people started adhereing to him. HIs followers can be found from places like villages in tibete to obscure villages in Afghanistan - all who started to adhere him when he was there. Theres villages in south India that adhere to him. That is flawed logic brother.

If the language of Gurmukhi is not part with Sikhi but only a cultural compliment, why did the Gurus invent it - whats the opoint? They coudl have used the script current at the time (Devanagri, landa etc etc). There were loads of lanaguages at the time - they chose to create a new one - why?

I agree that barriers need to be removed, hence why theres English translations..but it is extremely vital that one learns Gurmukhi..since your own understanding of Gurbani is usually very different from some translators understanding. You shold not let others do everything for you. That is where the bhamanism comes in. The low castes had to believe in what Brahmans had to say, because they themselves coudl not read the message. Lets not fall for these traps. Lets read the message and interpret it ourself. Understand your Guru.

You have not answered why Guru Ji would use time to create a new font..when he coudl have used it to, write more bani, preach more, do seva, simran. No he chose to create a script. Why?

Bhull Chukk Maaf

[GushK]

My two cents.

I think there's no distinct line of needing or not needing Gurmukhi here.

Remember, Gurbani was written in poetic form for a reason.

It wasn't just the words and the message, but also how they were portrayed and delivered to the masses that was also important.

Lionchild - your view seems very practical, but it ignores this "poetic" aspect of the form of SGGS.

An english (or any language) translation is very very essential in getting the message out to the world, but this is the limit of it's use.

By translating, you lose the poetic and rhythmic essesnce (the naad that pritam sigh mentions) which is so important.

Think about it, when you recite Jap Ji Sahib in th morning, do you recite the (slightly clunky - in my eyes) english translation, or recite in the original language, using your knowledge of the english translation to understand what you're reciting?

Not to mention, that you couldn't do kirtan properly with a translation, because again you lose the rhythm and structure as soon as you translate.

So, overall - Gurmukhi

It should neither be dismissed altogether nor stressed as the "only way" to come into sikhi.

In the context of getting the message out, the translations are invaluable as the first step.

For almost all other needs, GUrmukhi comes into it's own as a "need to know", but stressing this aspect too much only has the effect of driving people away.

Regards

Gursharan Singh

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

I think of it as once you are established as you know the fundamentals and are ready to put yourself into gear then you should learn Gurmukhi.

In rehat it says to become Amritdhari you have to already know Gurmukhi and if you dont you MUST learn it.

English is a good way to introduce people with this background but not to use as an everyday thing once established as a Sikh wanting to further the Vidiya of Sikhi.

The Gurus invented the Language so that people who wanted to become true Sikhs would put the most effort to show their self discipline. If they wernt serios they wouldnt learn a new lang. If you already knew the language then there wasnt very much effort put in so they invented on so everyone had to learn. People even now days learn Punjabi as a kid but if they want to know more in Sikhi they have to still learn Gurmukhi to read SGGS or they like you said have to let the upper people read it for them.

[jashans]

I think of it as once you are established as you know the fundamentals and are ready to put yourself into gear then you should learn Gurmukhi.

In rehat it says to become Amritdhari you have to already know Gurmukhi and if you dont you MUST learn it.

English is a good way to introduce people with this background but not to use as an everyday thing once established as a Sikh wanting to further the Vidiya of Sikhi.

The Gurus invented the Language so that people who wanted to become true Sikhs would put the most effort to show their self discipline. If they wernt serios they wouldnt learn a new lang. If you already knew the language then there wasnt very much effort put in so they invented on so everyone had to learn. People even now days learn Punjabi as a kid but if they want to know more in Sikhi they have to still learn Gurmukhi to read SGGS or they like you said have to let the upper people read it for them.

So you finally come to my point. Anyways, the point is The idea of letting people come to sikhi is different for both kids and adults:

Kids: They are not interested in what gurmukhi is, that is something that comes later on. To let them come to you is something that has to do with punjabi culture, and spreading it in them. You see, let it be western or southern, when people arent interested in religion (as western [some] ) then it will not matter whether you approach them with sikhism or Christianity. Because they are not interested, BUT if you teach them the "punjabi" culture, then people will be more interested. Remember, you are not there to convert, but to lighten the spirit. So trust me, those who dont know anything about sikhi/ punjabi culture, will not be interested in how Gurmukhi, works, let alone what it is (no matter how poetic)

For adults: The way of explaining is much more different, part of the reason because of their maturity. They are more likely to be enlightened by the spirit of gurmukhi, because the pains of life are just getting to them. Punjabi culture will be very good to explain also, and not just explain (cant find the *proper* word here), but also, because it is during this time that most people turn to god, so helping them with the good principles of sikhi, will also help them.

Anyways, i jsut get the feeling that I haven't quite explained it right here, but if that is the case, then we can try to clear it forward.

Jashan.

[Lionchild]

Very valid points everyone, yet we all are speaking from an inside point of view, and not really thinking of what it'slike to be when someone enters sikhi.

Yes guru nanak did preach sikhi to others areas outside of punjab region, yet why have we not seen any sagnificant numbers of sikhs in china, brazil, south afrika, and other locations... the reason being is that the gurus did not know those langauges. What i meant by mature is that at the time of guru nanak, there wasnt an established "khalsa" yet, nor was the guru granth sahib ji complete, and some of the philosophies of sikhi where not complete quite yet. in practical life, it would be pointless to spread something that was not entirely complete, even if the concept was already - this is difficult for me to explain.

As for gurmakhi, yes, it is encouraged that people do learn it if they want the "original rythem" of the words. Yet like some people have mentioned, it's the underlying message that really counts. Again in practical life, there are many ways to say "the tree is there" like, "there is the tree", "the tree is located there" yet they all mean the same thing. In terms of flow of words, this can be worked around by wording the translation in a way that the words do flow - i have seen this done before, and it can be done without altering the meaning.

I have read the bible that was originaly in a much older script than gurmakhi - the english "translation" was translated in such a way that the words where more in flow with each other. The meaning wasnt changed, and even the order of words wasnt altered, it was just how it was worded and connected that was changed.

In english translations of the guru granth sahib ji - this too can be done without distorting the meaning. This is not changing the guru or distorting the meaning. Real definition of translation - "a written communication in a second language having the same meaning as the written communication in a first language"

Key word - "same meaning" if you go and distort it by adding/deleting words and sentences then that is changing the guru. But simply translating only displays the same meaning in just another language.

You have not answered why Guru Ji would use time to create a new font..when he coudl have used it to, write more bani, preach more, do seva, simran. No he chose to create a script. Why?

You mean the gurus or waheguru? guru nanak and subsequently the gurus after him developed/altered the script as a way of communicating. But that is all, it's not meant to be the end all, only way to communicate with god - you think god can't understand his own people? If gurmakhi is the only way to find god, then how could there be equality? If people are concerned about translating, why are they talking in english on the forums here? why not just talk strictly in gurmakhi? - the reason, no many people would understand and the ones that could not easily talk to others that don't. We demonstrateevery day that we need to talk in anothe language in order to communicate with others, and get them interested. That same concept applies in real life.

I challenge someone to go out into the streets and talk about sikhi to a random person - in punjabi and show them gurmakhi books, and try to explain to them what sikhi is. No one will take up that challenge because we already know the outcome of it will be. However, do the same thing, but in english and people will ask questions, be interested and pay attention to you.

People who have roots with punjabi language are better of learning that language, cause yes, english will sound off. However to someone with english speaking roots, punjabi often sounds awkward and mysterious. Yes you can teach them a new language, but what's the point if they don't know the basics of sikhi? and what is the point if they already know a langauge perfectly well? why would anyone want to trade?

People need to be in the shoes of a totally new convert in order to understand this, i don't expect people who know gurmakhi to understand my reasonings.

If someone could provide a guru granth sahib ji quote saying that gurmakhi is a must and needed to be true sikh, as well as sikhi culture is part of punjabi culture - then i would understand why.

The SGPC Rehat Maryada recommend learning gurmakhi, but does not say that it's a must... i'm not sure who drew up the written rehat, i was told it was done by high human scholors by the SGPC. i would far rather go by both guru granth sahib ji and the rahat to get answers on this.

But then again, which one do we "follow"?

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

1) after the Amrit ceremony the Panj Pyare lay down the strict rules that you must live by, they say it is a must {or you cant ever read the SGGS} along with other important rules or conduct.

2) Guru Nanak would go to a region and if he didnt know the language he would find someone to translate the message,meaning someone knew what he was saying and knew the language of the target people. Guru Nanak would sing the Shabad in Old Punjabi{Gurmukhi} and either GuruJi or the translator would explain the Shabad in the language understood by the Sadh Sangat of that land. Katha means: to explain out the shabad in the language understood to the Sangat in Punjabi{modern} English etc. But Raag means it is sung in the mood of the Shabad that coresponds with the topic covered in the Shabad{{ For example if it was a sad sounding shabad the mood would be sad so the notes of the song would sound sad also. }} People{GranthiJis dont sing as correctly as did the Gurus and the people following the years after,and until today people lazily recite from SGGS} When GuruJi was singing the Sangat could understand the Naad and not neccesarily understand the meaning. Thats why you have Katha, to explain in the Language of the people present. After a while the Sangat will understand the Gurmukhi and Naad of SGGSand themselves be able to teach the meanings in their languages Katha. In Mexico they recite SGGS in Gurmukhi but do Katha in spainish.

3) The bible has been fatally altered by the Roman English version/translation. I could have a literal seminar on this but I would be basically taking down to Christians just for one example and this is just 1% of what I could teach about the corruption of the english bible Go and find and read the Psalms of Solomon.. It is not there. The only Psalmns in existence to the world is the psalms of David his father but not of his and remember Solomon was the wisest of the Kings. The Psalms/songs of Solomon must of had a deep intelectual meaning of the topics and removing them herded to congregation into a fenced off area with no way out, and now nobody even knows of its existence.{Trust me on this I studied all this for years and years} I then found so many holes that I forfieted the bible alltogether. I was in a state of having no fulflilment until I was revealed Sri Guru Granth Sahib which has reopened my eyes and my Dasam Duaar.You could say that the Jews have the most authentic version of the Bible today but is only the Old Testament and which they live by today. It would take a tremendous effort to start to see what Im talking about by looking and studying yourself about this. I could go on for months about this part of this issue so I will stop here on this subject.

4) The English translation is only used for Katha or on the side study and has zero Naad within. It couldnt be installed to teach a Sangat only the original Eternal SGGS is to be installed or you insult the Guruship of the SGGS. If you look at 4 different English translated SGGS they would differ throughout even though they are somewhat close to the meaning. In order to fully understand SGGS you must study the words themselves their origins and the story behind the Shabad and why it was compiled in SGGS. Learning what the brief meaning is of SGGS is reading the English version which is just a version and not a SGGS Saroop. This means the translated versions can be distorted allthough close but not exactlly the most true meaning.

"Same meaning" isnt exact meaning.I could say "apples and oranges" or "peaches and pears" which have the same meaning but arent the exact meaning. If I wrote "apples and oranges" and it was transalted into peaches and pears it is the same but different meaning the translation would have to be the english word for apple etc. Or GU RU means darkness and light -- the light that dispels all darkness but its english transaltion is "spiritual teacher" which is similar but very different.

5) There are many ways to communicate with God in all languages but through the Gurus Grace we spread the Naad through the text in its original form of SGGS. Its not as simple as knowing the meaning one must also understand the Naad within its message also and in the english form there isnt any Naad involved.

6) You could hand out a booklet in any language to share the concepts of Sikhi but then there comes a point to get past learning concepts and straight learn the real deepest meanings of anyother information on Earth.

You could read translated version in all language but without the original SGGS they could only get soo far and then would be nuetral but highly spiritual. SRI GURU ARJAN DEV JI compiled the Adi Granth in its exact form as it is today same number of angs/pages same orders of banis etc and the 10th Master organised the SGGS inits form as used today and they cannot be altered or translated but only in Katha be worded differently to teach the meanings to people who havent or are learning the meanings.First you share in there language and if they are a serios and dedicated person to Sikhi then they would want to learn the original form of SGGS to feel the Naad and by closer to the Gurus teachings as if said to them by the Gurus themselves.

7)English could never matchand sound what was said from the Gurus mouthes.

8)Old Punjab cultue matches the Sikhi culter and modern punjab culter only briefly matches the Sikh culture. {that could be its own thread so i stop here on this part of this topic}

9)I am and was a new convert to the Sikh way of life, and all this are just a percentage of my findings.So Im in the shoes you are talking about and am jogging just fine and am planning on running and then sprinting.

10) The rehat can only cover so many things and the rest falls into Gurmat. Start to learn Gurmat and youll see what I am talking about. Follow the panthic rehat and follow it closely. and All of the rehat was written by humans and was revised in 1947 and it gives the names of who was involved.

If you dont learn the Gurmukhi script and sounds youll be forced to only listen and cant study for yourself and will drop down in to the ranks as the Brahmins only can read the text and the congregation is illiterate and can be mislead or not taught its meaning to the fullest extent. Its up to you to recite JapJi at Amritvela in its original form along with Jaap Sahib, Tav Prasad, Chaupai, Anand Sahib. And So Dar/Rehaaras, Sohila inthe evening and before bed also Sukhmani Sahib and SGGS in general while in its original form with its Naad paralleled or intertwinned within its sound waves.

This is the most brief way and best way I could explain in a short amount of time and space the meaning of Naad and what was said from the Gurus mouth/Gurmukhi.

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh!

I bow to the Shabad Guru