Ishnaan In Darbar Sahib

[KirtanNirmolakHeera]

Correct me if I am wrong. The Sikh faith grants equality amongst men and women. People take that idea for granted. Discussions on womens' rights end with the conclusion that women are, in a sense, better than men and not equal to men. When people give proofs for gender equality, they tend to use lines that "over-praise" women. Many such double-standards exist today that are there to protect women, and make men "not proud to be who they were born as". Anyways, that is not what I intend to ask, but serves merely as a basis. In Darbar Sahib, why are the women's Ishnaan Ghars covered with all that metal, i.e., why do women have privacy? In order to maintain the fact that we are equal, wouldn't it be fair to either establish such "booths" for men as well, or to have everyone bathe publicly? Many would argue that women bathing would ignite the Kaam in men, but it is an established fact that women, too, are vulnerable to succumbing to such feelings upon seeing men bathing. I think that society fails to accept such truths, proven by both the sciences as well as the great Bani of our gurus. What justification is there for having a bathing booth for women, and not men? Or, why does the women's booth exist at all? What is annoying me much is that the more people learn about equality, the more they tend to exploit it and over-use its advantages, to benefit a previously oppressed party. Is it not possible to for once "recognize all as the human race" ? I hear people telling so-called "shocking" stories about women doing things today that could not be done in the past. What is there to be shocked by? If not shocked, others tend to be proud of women? Why stop at women when you can recognize this as a feat of the power of mankind, with the holy Grace of Waheguru?

Note, everything I asked after the Ishnaan Ghar question was a rhetorical remark used to support my reason for asking such a question. I really do want to know about the origins, the practicality, and the justification for the establishment of such Ishnaan Ghars. Thank You.

[S1ngh]

Sometime our punjabi culture plays important role in our society. I am not sure if i am wrong or not.. but i heard that in the culture of chinese or japanese ppls.. "Its very rude to give watch as the gift." That example quote is not in any of their religious scripts but its in their culture/society. I am not sure but i think there are some things that are linked with cultural/social lifestyle.

[Fearless khalsa]

ajj pata nahi kyun assi mordenisation de naam te apna virsa bhulde jaa rahe haan .. we should broad minded but ... but i think sum time at the name of mordenisation or broadmindness we forget the meaning of and values of our culture .. appan ajj equality di gal karde haan .. oh veereo guru sahib hi si jihna ne naari di hak di gal kiti si ..jihna ne kudiyan nu mundya de barabar dasya si .. Gurbani farmaundi hai pr iqRA rUpu n pyKY nyqR ] so tusi app hi dasso ki galat hai je uhna nu privacy diti gayi ... veereo apni thinking nu theek karo .. je mera keha bura lagya hoya hove te hath bann ke mafi chaunda haa

[Bundha]

I find your premise on equality rather naïve. You seem to equate equality with an attitude of “we must do everything the other gender does.” This is not necessarily equality. Women have made great strives in proper equality, however nobody is saying that inequality does not exist but the energy needs to be channelled at worthwhile causes to spent on meaningless issues.

The basic point is that the genders are different and Guru Ji loves us because of our differences. We have differing roles to play in life and Guru Ji loves us for this. One gender was given the title ‘Singh,’ the other was given ‘Kaur,’ why? If there is total equality then why this fundamental difference? Why not have both ‘Singhs’ or both ‘Kaurs?’

In normal society men can walk around in kashera and SiriSahib but a woman covers other parts of her body for modesty. You want a woman to walk around like this also? How many Mata / bibbia would take this up? How many Matas and bibbia would want to take ishnaan in the glaring eye of other people? I am sure most ladies welcome the privacy of being able to do ishnaan without prying eyes, where as men are not too bothered about this.

Whatever next? Men stand up when they do a ‘peepee,’ are women going to demand this also?

[Revolutionary]

I find your premise on equality rather naïve. You seem to equate equality with an attitude of “we must do everything the other gender does.” This is not necessarily equality. Women have made great strives in proper equality, however nobody is saying that inequality does not exist but the energy needs to be channelled at worthwhile causes to spent on meaningless issues.

The basic point is that the genders are different and Guru Ji loves us because of our differences. We have differing roles to play in life and Guru Ji loves us for this. One gender was given the title ‘Singh,’ the other was given ‘Kaur,’ why? If there is total equality then why this fundamental difference? Why not have both ‘Singhs’ or both ‘Kaurs?’

In normal society men can walk around in kashera and SiriSahib but a woman covers other parts of her body for modesty. You want a woman to walk around like this also? How many Mata / bibbia would take this up? How many Matas and bibbia would want to take ishnaan in the glaring eye of other people? I am sure most ladies welcome the privacy of being able to do ishnaan without prying eyes, where as men are not too bothered about this.

Whatever next? Men stand up when they do a ‘peepee,’ are women going to demand this also?

EXACTLY!!! I was about to make the same point.

Equality has its limits within nature..

..What if the question of clothing pops up such as "men should wear bra because sikhs talks about equality" @

[_K_]

Whatever next? Men stand up when they do a ‘peepee,’ are women going to demand this also?

Equality has its limits within nature..

..What if the question of clothing pops up such as "men should wear bra because sikhs talks about equality" @

hehehe...

yep ur right equality has its limits... men and women are physically different!!!

[KirtanNirmolakHeera]

I understand that we are physically different, and that equality has its limits. It's quite obvious from the very fact that we LOOK different. But that doesn't mean that women should be allowed to be covered, and not men. People make generalizations and assign particular traits, characteristics, qualities, roles, etc. to both men and women. That bra example that was given was not the type that would help me figure this issue out. Its not needed by men; but privacy, in certain cases, is. If we are Sikhs, and we respect each other, what harm is there in public bathing? What if, say, a man wants HIS privacy? It is impossible to say we are equal in all ways, but the opportunities each gender receives should be equal; why would it be just to provide benefits to one party and not the other, when both parties respect each other and are both Sikhs? Mentioned directly after my initial post was the fact that it is a cultural thing. So what? We are not necessarily bounded by Punjabi culture, as the gurus told us. I also understand that this is the least of worries for Sikhs today, but I'm just curious, and I would like to understand the morals behind this. Thank You.

[Khalsa Fauji]

Gurfateh!!

Men and women are not equal in sikhi, the emphasis lies on respecting woman more as it is easy for them to destroy their izzat.

For eg. Guy goes out with a girl, everyone finds out. Its usually the Girl who loses her respect more than the guy.

So it is our duty as brothers, to make sure girls arent in situations that could potentially ruin their respect.

So the reason females have their own area to ishnaan is out of respect.

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Gurfateh!!

[KirtanNirmolakHeera]

Gurfateh!!

Men and women are not equal in sikhi, the emphasis lies on respecting woman more as it is easy for them to destroy their izzat.

For eg. Guy goes out with a girl, everyone finds out. Its usually the Girl who loses her respect more than the guy.

So it is our duty as brothers, to make sure girls arent in situations that could potentially ruin their respect.

So the reason females have their own area to ishnaan is out of respect.

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Gurfateh!!

Khalsa Fauji, Sikhism acts not as a tool that forever defends women's disrespect, but completely elliminates it. Our respect isn't for the oppressed only, it is for everyone. Why then should men sacrifice their own respect for that of women? Isn't it more reasonable, then, to respect everyone? This spread of the concept that "women are equal to men" has, in a sense, made men lower. Why is it easier for women to lose their respect? Because we allow for it to happen. All of these examples like "guy goes out with girl..." are caused by the the spread of the "bad" Punjabi culture, and again, because we allow for it to happen. We are not police officers who go out and look for people behaving badly against women; we can however be considered as such, but we defend the human race in its entirety. The Darbar Sahib is not a Punjabi mela, so there is no reason for culture not prescribed by Sikhism to be followed there. When you say females get their own area out of respect, you are also, in a way, saying that men are being DISrespected by not being given privacy rights.

[Bundha]

<<<< But that doesn't mean that women should be allowed to be covered, and not men. >>>

Who’s stopping you? Every time the sun comes out you see men stripped to their shorts, if a woman feels she wants to do that then go ahead. But, here lies the destructive force of Kalyug, we get so bogged down in detail that we miss the big picture. In the pursuit of equality a mata or Bibi is willing to forgo her modesty just so that she can say I am as equal as a man. I would hope there are better issues to fight inequality with and I suspect that most bibbies are intelligent enough to recognise this.

<<< That bra example that was given was not the type that would help me figure this issue out. >>>

Dunno about that mate, there are a few gianies who could benefit from one of these !

<<< If we are Sikhs, and we respect each other, what harm is there in public bathing? >>>>

You gotta be kidding right?

In puratan times bibbis would do “chund” and keep themselves covered for modesty, how times are changed where people advocate public bathing. There is trouble enough in gurdwaras with people eying each other up and to be honest with you most bibies I am sure would much rather bathe in privacy anyway.

<<< What if, say, a man wants HIS privacy? >>>

Agreed, this is a shortcoming, but here surely the male is under represented as he does not have as good a facility as the females.

We are bought up and moulded by our environment and it has direct effect upon us so the Punjabi influence has always been there, even in the Guru Sahibs times.