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Sat Sri Akal to all Sikh friends :@

I am here seeking some help from you friends. Yesterday I engaged in an argument with one of my Sikh friend regarding cast system, when he told me that any one from lower cast is not allowed to enter in his hose and they are fed and accommodated separately. I told him that Sikhism deny any cast system and treats every one equally. He has studied in some religious school and know many hymens from SGGS ji. What he told me was shocking to me! He told me:

1. Guru Nanak Dev Ji preached the lesson of equality but never practiced himself!

2. He also told me that complete SGGS ji is not available on intrenet.

3. There are three versions of SGGS Je.

4. Where ever Ram appear in bani does not men Ram of Ramayana.

5. He says Ram in bani means some Arabic/farsi way to say Allah

wacko.gif:) @

I am 110% sure he is lying, please help me to get out of confusion. I am not very good in Punjabi and do not remember SGGS Ji.

Please Help!

After posting this message I will invite him on this forum.

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Sat Sri Akal to all Sikh friends :@

I am here seeking some help from you friends. Yesterday I engaged in an argument with one of my Sikh friend regarding cast system, when he told me that any one from lower cast is not allowed to enter in his hose and they are fed and accommodated separately. I told him that Sikhism deny any cast system and treats every one equally. He has studied in some religious school and know many hymens from SGGS ji. What he told me was shocking to me! He told me:

1. Guru Nanak Dev Ji preached the lesson of equality but never practiced himself!

2. He also told me that complete SGGS ji is not available on intrenet.

3. There are three versions of SGGS Je.

4. Where ever Ram appear in bani does not men Ram of Ramayana.

5. He says Ram in bani means some Arabic/farsi way to say Allah

wacko.gif:) @

I am 110% sure he is lying, please help me to get out of confusion. I am not very good in Punjabi and do not remember SGGS Ji.

Please Help!

After posting this message I will invite him on this forum.

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Stand of your friend is altogether incorrect.

Gur Nanak Sahib preached and practiced too for classless and casteless society. He said

' neechan ander neech jjaat, neechi houn at neech

Nanak tin ke sang saath wadiian sion kiya Rees'

There be a low caste and still lowest among the low. Nanak is always with them, with no envy with the superior ones.

His life long companion was Bhai Mardana, a very low caste Mohamdan ( Maarasi). Then his visit and patronising Lalo carpenter and story relating to him is known to every one who is accustomed to his life and thought

He declined the hospitality of Malik Bhago, the rich businessman, against th chapatis prepared with course grains of carpenter Lallo. There are innumerable other instances of the like nature.

then the entire Guru Granth Sahib is available on the internet. you search at googlie or just type out 'SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB' you will find several sites for the purpose with or without english translationor transliteration.

Then there is only one version of SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB, tha thas been accepted as Guru. It is Damdami Bir, written and completed by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib himself. Prior to Him there were some different Birs, but the same have not been anointed as ' Guru'

Yes 'Ram' word in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, unless specifically mentioned in particularl contexts, doew not relate to Sri Ram a god of Hindu religion. Here Ram stands for God himself, nothing less nothing more.

JAGJIT SINGH

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I know of two versions. The last part in the SGGS was "found later" by someone or something like that and is usually included, but not read by all people. The panth basically said that we can read it if we want, and not if we don't want to. As far as I know, it doesn't even mean anything, just goes over the raags or something like that. I'll look into it and post again.

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WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHGUUR JI KI FATEH

Just want to exapnd on what the paaji above mentioned about the point made about Raam... the Raam that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji talks about is not the Hindu deity Ram ji.

I think Raam was the name for God in the olden days (formless God... without any form or shape... Just as the oldest Hindu scripture, the Vedas mentions God is formless who has no form). However when the Hindu deity Ram ji was born... Hindu's used this name to refer to this deity... hence why the Hindu's dont use this name for the formless God no more... because it got associated with the Ram diety.

Now about the point about Raam and it being a arabic word... this is an interesting point because its actually pronouced RAHM (if im not mistaken) this is God's name in arabic... which means where we all come from i.e. meaning place of ORIGIN.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

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Where did your friend take that class? lol

Does your friend have any examples showing how Guru ji didn't express equality? Just wondering where he got his evidence.

http://www.GurbaniFiles.org for SGGS online.

About the different versions all I can guess are: The Adi Granth and the SGGS as we know now, which itself is kind of split into two; the last part, Raag Maala (posted below), isn't always read. The panth says we can either read it or not, they didn't really make a choice... people in the AKJ don't read it, as far as I know.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ ॥

ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥

ਸੰਗਿ ਅਲਾਪਹਿ ਆਠਉ ਨੰਦਨ ॥

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਰਾਗ ਭੈਰਉ ਵੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥

ਪੰਚ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਚਰਹੀ ॥

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੀ ॥

ਪੁੰਨਿਆਕੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਬੰਗਲੀ ॥

ਪੁਨਿ ਅਸਲੇਖੀ ਕੀ ਭਈ ਬਾਰੀ ॥

ਏ ਭੈਰਉ ਕੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਨਾਰੀ ॥

ਪੰਚਮ ਹਰਖ ਦਿਸਾਖ ਸੁਨਾਵਹਿ ॥

ਬੰਗਾਲਮ ਮਧੁ ਮਾਧਵ ਗਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥

ਲਲਤ ਬਿਲਾਵਲ ਗਾਵਹੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ॥

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੇ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗਾਇਨ ਪਾਤ੍ਰ ॥੧॥

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਆਲਾਪਹਿ ॥

ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਥਾਪਹਿ ॥

ਗੋਂਡਕਰੀ ਅਰੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ॥

ਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਸੀਹੁਤੀ ਉਚਾਰੀ ॥

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਏ ਪਾਚਉ ਗਾਈ ॥

ਮਾਲ ਰਾਗ ਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ॥

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਸਤਅੰਗ ਮੇਵਾਰਾ ॥

ਪ੍ਰਬਲਚੰਡ ਕਉਸਕ ਉਭਾਰਾ ॥

ਖਉਖਟ ਅਉ ਭਉਰਾਨਦ ਗਾਏ ॥

ਅਸਟ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਏ ॥੧॥

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਇਅਉ ਹਿੰਡੋਲੁ ਪੰਚ ਨਾਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਸਟ ਸੁਤ ॥

ਉਠਹਿ ਤਾਨ ਕਲੋਲ ਗਾਇਨ ਤਾਰ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ॥੧॥

ਤੇਲੰਗੀ ਦੇਵਕਰੀ ਆਈ ॥

ਬਸੰਤੀ ਸੰਦੂਰ ਸੁਹਾਈ ॥

ਸਰਸ ਅਹੀਰੀ ਲੈ ਭਾਰਜਾ ॥

ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਆਰਜਾ ॥

ਸੁਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਭਾਸਕਰ ਆਏ ॥

ਚੰਦ੍ਰਬਿੰਬ ਮੰਗਲਨ ਸੁਹਾਏ ॥

ਸਰਸਬਾਨ ਅਉ ਆਹਿ ਬਿਨੋਦਾ ॥

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਰਸ ਬਸੰਤ ਕਮੋਦਾ ॥

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਕਹੇ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਈ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਰੀ ॥੧॥

ਕਛੇਲੀ ਪਟਮੰਜਰੀ ਟੋਡੀ ਕਹੀ ਅਲਾਪਿ ॥

ਕਾਮੋਦੀ ਅਉ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਥਾਪਿ ॥੧॥

ਕਾਲੰਕਾ ਕੁੰਤਲ ਅਉ ਰਾਮਾ ॥

ਕਮਲਕੁਸਮ ਚੰਪਕ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥

ਗਉਰਾ ਅਉ ਕਾਨਰਾ ਕਲ੍ਹਾਨਾ ॥

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥

ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹਿ ॥

ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ ॥

ਬੈਰਾਰੀ ਕਰਨਾਟੀ ਧਰੀ ॥

ਗਵਰੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾਵਰੀ ॥

ਤਿਹ ਪਾਛੈ ਸਿੰਧਵੀ ਅਲਾਪੀ ॥

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਥਾਪੀ ॥੧॥

ਸਾਲੂ ਸਾਰਗ ਸਾਗਰਾ ਅਉਰ ਗੋਂਡ ਗੰਭੀਰ ॥

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗ ਕੇ ਗੁੰਡ ਕੁੰਭ ਹਮੀਰ ॥੧॥

ਖਸਟਮ ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹਿ ॥

ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ ॥

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਗੋਂਡ ਮਲਾਰੀ ਧੁਨੀ ॥

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾ ਗੁਨ ਗੁਨੀ ॥

ਊਚੈ ਸੁਰਿ ਸੂਹਉ ਪੁਨਿ ਕੀਨੀ ॥

ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਚੀਨੀ ॥੧॥

ਬੈਰਾਧਰ ਗਜਧਰ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ ॥

ਜਬਲੀਧਰ ਨਟ ਅਉ ਜਲਧਾਰਾ ॥

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸੰਕਰ ਅਉ ਸਿਆਮਾ ॥

ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥

ਖਸਟ ਰਾਗ ਉਨਿ ਗਾਏ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਤੀਸ ॥

ਸਭੈ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਰਾਗੰਨ ਕੇ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਦਸ ਬੀਸ ॥੧॥੧॥

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Raag Maalaa:

Each Raga has five wives,

and eight sons, who emit distinctive notes.

In the first place is Raag Bhairao.

It is accompanied by the voices of its five Raaginis:

First come Bhairavee, and Bilaavalee;

then the songs of Punni-aakee and Bangalee;

and then Asalaykhee.

These are the five consorts of Bhairao.

The sounds of Pancham, Harakh and Disaakh;

the songs of Bangaalam, Madh and Maadhav. ||1||

Lalat and Bilaaval - each gives out its own melody.

when these eight sons of Bhairao are sung by accomplished musicians. ||1||

In the second family is Maalakausak,

who brings his five Raaginis:

Gondakaree and Dayv Gandhaaree,

the voices of Gandhaaree and Seehutee,

and the fifth song of Dhanaasaree.

This chain of Maalakausak brings along :

Maaroo, Masta-ang and Mayvaaraa,

Prabal, Chandakausak,

Khau, Khat and Bauraanad singing.

These are the eight sons of Maalakausak. ||1||

Then comes Hindol with his five wives and eight sons;

it rises in waves when the sweet-voiced chorus sings. ||1||

There come Taylangee and Darvakaree;

Basantee and Sandoor follow;

then Aheeree, the finest of women.

These five wives come together.

The sons: Surmaanand and Bhaaskar come,

Chandrabinb and Mangalan follow.

Sarasbaan and Binodaa then come,

and the thrilling songs of Basant and Kamodaa.

These are the eight sons I have listed.

Then comes the turn of Deepak. ||1||

Kachhaylee, Patamanjaree and Todee are sung;

Kaamodee and Goojaree accompany Deepak. ||1||

Kaalankaa, Kuntal and Raamaa,

Kamalakusam and Champak are their names;

Gauraa, Kaanaraa and Kaylaanaa;

these are the eight sons of Deepak. ||1||

All join together and sing Siree Raag,

which is accompanied by its five wives.:

Bairaaree and Karnaatee,

the songs of Gawree and Aasaavaree;

then follows Sindhavee.

These are the five wives of Siree Raag. ||1||

Saaloo, Saarang, Saagaraa, Gond and Gambheer

- the eight sons of Siree Raag include Gund, Kumb and Hameer. ||1||

In the sixth place, Maygh Raag is sung,

with its five wives in accompaniment:

Sorat'h, Gond, and the melody of Malaaree;

then the harmonies of Aasaa are sung.

And finally comes the high tone Soohau.

These are the five with Maygh Raag. ||1||

Bairaadhar, Gajadhar, Kaydaaraa,

Jabaleedhar, Nat and Jaladhaaraa.

Then come the songs of Shankar and Shi-aamaa.

These are the names of the sons of Maygh Raag. ||1||

So all together, they sing the six Raagas and the thirty Raaginis,

and all the forty-eight sons of the Raagas. ||1||1||

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for the support friends.

The guy is now not arguing on three versions of SGGS, but now he has changed focus and says that SGGS is constituted of three Banis (that is some thing I can agree). He sounds very funny now. But he still insists that Shri Guru Nanak Dev ji supported cast system and discrimination of low cast people is OK. He says that this is a common practice in Punjab that a low cast person (like chura or chamar) is not allowed to sit with high class person. I agree that it is a common practice in many parts of India and other parts of the world but still sure that this is against sikhi.

Thanks to all once again.

SSA

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