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Are Ravidassia's Sikhs Or A Cult?


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I can agree with many points made on this thread mainly with the fact ravidassia gurdwara are not run to the same same standards as Singh Sabha Gurdwara. Maybe this is because we traditionally have followed sikhism through Guru Ravidass than Guru Nanak so there will be some differences. Although over the years many ravidassis have converged to follow sihkism in its entirety.

Alough we have not changed ardass and jakara i have seen addional words said at the end of ardass and an additional jakara. These i believe are fine since we would like to pay our respects to guru ravidass for what he achieved for the chamar community.

Guru nanak achieved what i believe bhagat ravidass and bhagat kabir were aiming for. They had similay ideas where bhagat ravidass and bhagat kabir were more focused towards creating an equal casteless society and guru nanak was also focused to spread the word of how to get closer to god.

Sikhs in the modern world have not really accepted ravidassias to be sikhs which is why ravidassia are having difficulty in trying to integrate and out of frustation then beging going there own way.

Sikhism to me seems like you have to be born a sikh to be one. Its not possible to convert to sikhism and be fully accepted by the community.

So in this day and age ravidassia are more sikh than anything. And if you think about it the lower your origianl caste the more sikh you are, since sikhism was to create a casteless society for the lower classes.

How many brahmin sikhs to we have?? None i guess. Since they would loose their high status if they became sikhs.

The akal takht needs to address these issues. But many there are too racist towards ravidassia. However they did once have female chamar as a Jatedar.

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Firstly a name does not define a person their actions do. Secondly which history books or history accounts are you referring too? My ancestors are from farming background (Jatt / Zamindar), and what

LONG LIVE MY SIKH BOTHERS AND SISTERS WhO ARE OF CHAMAR BACKGROUND!!!...YOU AER OUR FAMLY..YOU ARE OUR EQUALS....WE ARE ALL ONE UNDER GURUJI...DONT LET THESE CASTEIST FOOLS PUT YOU OFF GURUJIS PAH!!!

There is also a gurdwara here with ravidas followers. They had Guru Granth Sahib Jee and there where some Singhs with kakkaars on ther were too MANY pictures of Bhagat Ravidas. Even in front of Guru G

I can agree with many points made on this thread mainly with the fact ravidassia gurdwara are not run to the same same standards as Singh Sabha Gurdwara. Maybe this is because we traditionally have followed sikhism through Guru Ravidass than Guru Nanak so there will be some differences. Although over the years many ravidassis have converged to follow sihkism in its entirety.

Alough we have not changed ardass and jakara i have seen addional words said at the end of ardass and an additional jakara. These i believe are fine since we would like to pay our respects to guru ravidass for what he achieved for the chamar community.

Guru nanak achieved what i believe bhagat ravidass and bhagat kabir were aiming for. They had similay ideas where bhagat ravidass and bhagat kabir were more focused towards creating an equal casteless society and guru nanak was also focused to spread the word of how to get closer to god.

Sikhs in the modern world have not really accepted ravidassias to be sikhs which is why ravidassia are having difficulty in trying to integrate and out of frustation then beging going there own way.

Sikhism to me seems like you have to be born a sikh to be one. Its not possible to convert to sikhism and be fully accepted by the community.

So in this day and age ravidassia are more sikh than anything. And if you think about it the lower your origianl caste the more sikh you are, since sikhism was to create a casteless society for the lower classes.

How many brahmin sikhs to we have?? None i guess. Since they would loose their high status if they became sikhs.

The akal takht needs to address these issues. But many there are too racist towards ravidassia. However they did once have female chamar as a Jatedar.

This is me speaking as a 'Ravidassia'. You say that sikhs in the modern world have not accepted Ravidassia to be Sikhs. Why should they when the large majority of Ravidassia still seem to be intent on classing themselves as something different i.e. that they are not Sikh's. I know this to be fact because I have experienced it first hand. All my family, except my brother and me (including my extended family) believe that they are not Sikhs but somewhere in between Sikhi and Hinduism. How can you be half and half I ask? Ravidassia are intent of following both practices of Sikh's and Hindus. There are dvd's and vcds available of the shabads of Bhagat Ravidass and then at the end of one of these dvd's I have seen, there is this Baba sitting on a gaddi whilst the shabad 'Naam Tero Aarti' is composed and having flowers etc thrown on him by Ravidassia. Another example is the Guru Ravidass Gurudwara on Dudley Rd, Wolverhampton. Bhagat Ravidass's janam dhin is coming up in February and every year, they host this in the community centre opposite the Gurudwara. However, this same centre is hired out to wedding parties etc where alcohol is consumed and other intoxicants and then they take the Guru Granth to this centre.

The large majority of Ravidassia do not wish to be a part of Sikhi instead they want to be something of their own making hence the reason why they have elevated Bhagta Ravidass into Guru Ravidass so that they can say we have our own Guru and we are not a part of you lot, we are something different.

According to you, I am a Ravidassia and I can say hand on heart, I have not experienced bad treatment from my fellow Sikh's. I have many Sikh friends and have not experienced not bad treatment from them or their famillies and they all blatantly know that I am a 'Ravidassia' I do not experience any bad treatment because I have embraced Sikhi. Bhagat Ravidass fought for the rights of our koum which we are all grateful for. The bottom line is that Bhagat Ravidass's bani is in the Guru Granth Sahib thereby making so called Ravidassia into Sikh's.

The jaikara done in Ravidassia Gurudwara is wrong:

Jo Bole So Nirbhai, Shri Guru Ravidass Maharaj Ki Jai, Bole So Nihaaal, Sat Sri Akal'

Why do we only place respect onto Bhagat Ravidass?. In your post you said that you don't see what difference it makes if the jaikara is altrered. If we take what you say, then we should include all of the bhagats in the jaikara because they have all done something for the downtrodden people.

On a final note, why is it that only Ravidassia have managed to make a seperate identity for themselves? There are numerous other bhagats that were on this world before Bhagat Ravidass, why haven't they got a seperate following? Our people (chamaar) need to wake up and smell the coffee. We are Sikh's and nothing else. All the bogus practices that are done by our community need to be stopped and then true Sikh's will not have a problem accepting us.

Bole So Nihaal! Sat Sri Akal!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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why cant we follow guru nanak dev ji, by rejected the caste system?

why cant we just get along with each other? in this day and i age i see more people amongst the older generation that chat about caste but even they are slowly getin use to the idea that if a 'jatt' marrys a 'tarkhan' its ok or woteva.. i mean to my understanding doesnt the code of conduct say that a sikh should marry another sikh, regardless off the caste! as i sed do correct me if im wrong..

and abt being born a sikh... this always puzzls me.. yes we are born into sikhi.. but dus that reali make us a sikh???

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Gurfateh

It is a sort of sect(may be also to be found in Hindus) but most mebers are from one caste of cobler or tanners.

They can not be Sikh as they behold Sant Ravidas as Guru and say Soaham instead of Wahiguru.

Mani problem with convetrts from so called lower castes is that they want to ahev cake and eat it also.They bring in thier pagan deity along side them,say Valmiki Ji and his picture.

In Jatts and Ramgarhiya Jathera worship is similar problem.And in Khatris we may have Bedi or Sodi Baba being worshipped .All needs to be stoped by porper guidance that only Akal is Guru.

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I can agree with many points made on this thread mainly with the fact ravidassia gurdwara are not run to the same same standards as Singh Sabha Gurdwara. Maybe this is because we traditionally have followed sikhism through Guru Ravidass than Guru Nanak so there will be some differences. Although over the years many ravidassis have converged to follow sihkism in its entirety.

Alough we have not changed ardass and jakara i have seen addional words said at the end of ardass and an additional jakara. These i believe are fine since we would like to pay our respects to guru ravidass for what he achieved for the chamar community.

Guru nanak achieved what i believe bhagat ravidass and bhagat kabir were aiming for. They had similay ideas where bhagat ravidass and bhagat kabir were more focused towards creating an equal casteless society and guru nanak was also focused to spread the word of how to get closer to god.

Sikhs in the modern world have not really accepted ravidassias to be sikhs which is why ravidassia are having difficulty in trying to integrate and out of frustation then beging going there own way.

Sikhism to me seems like you have to be born a sikh to be one. Its not possible to convert to sikhism and be fully accepted by the community.

So in this day and age ravidassia are more sikh than anything. And if you think about it the lower your origianl caste the more sikh you are, since sikhism was to create a casteless society for the lower classes.

How many brahmin sikhs to we have?? None i guess. Since they would loose their high status if they became sikhs.

The akal takht needs to address these issues. But many there are too racist towards ravidassia. However they did once have female chamar as a Jatedar.

i agree with some of your points ...

Bhagat Ravidass wanted a casteless society yeh, but still all i hear from "ravidassias" ie my own family amongst others is chamaar this chamaar that. when i ask my cousins what religion they think they r, ones like oh we half hindu half sikh... umm yeak okk :s @ and then others r like "my religion is chamaar :lol: " .... hmmm.gif and the segregation is to blame for this, that most people dun hava clue what religion they r following and think they r following a total "opposite religion to sikhi" cuz u no theyr not "sikhs".... but they'r not cuz they'r v v v v similar, dare i say it, nearly the same,

what i dont get they're all quik enough to say oh its cuz of caste, we wern't accepted and we should all be equal etc but then they'v become just as bad...with there new nonsense of putt chamaaran de n stuff <_< @ ussen chamaar aa chamaar :@ ... chamaaran berry dangerous aa dangerous- LOL this mad uncle sed that to me once ..hahaha but anyway blush.gif

how can they have followed sikhism through Bhagat Ravidass when sikhi was first taught by Guru Nanak?

ardass HAS been changed, dudley rd wolverhampton, they dont say "sabh sikhan ko hukam hain guru maneyo granth" its been cut out.. Bhagat Ravidass's achievements were not just for th chamaar community, they were for the whole of mankind... he didnt just preach to chamaars..he taught God is imminent in everything and everyone therfore he didnt see a difference between people, yeh he did use the word chamaar alot in his baani but i think that was just to illustrate his message.

maybe sikhs havent accepted ravidassias as sikhs because they call themselves ravidassias and not sikhs... they call them selves hindus or chamaars... if anything some ravidassias dont appreciate being called sikh and thats why thers a big outcry when someone of "chamaar" descent gets married to a "jatt" or "tharkhaan" - thankfully thers a little less of that now.

http://www.gururavidassji.org.uk/correspondents.htm << heres a example of how they do not like to be called sikhs.. :'(

like what akaali said me talking as a "chamaar" i've got loads of "sikh" friends and they hav never eveeeerrrr shown any kind of prejudice to me, if anything they just encourage me to focus on the true msg pf sikhi and not get caught up in these lil cults/sects/offshoots/brotherhoods

Our people (chamaar) need to wake up and smell the coffee. We are Sikh's and nothing else. All the bogus practices that are done by our community need to be stopped and then true Sikh's will not have a problem accepting us.

completely agree with akali

sorry if i caused any offence.

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Brother Akali i embrace you. - Sikhs are casteless only those that are mentally challenged believe caste separates us all

When i am asked my caste by anyone, i say 'Khalsa' is my caste they resond yes, but what caste are you lol - KHALSA is my caste fool i reply!

Gur Fateh

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Akali, i am very impressed with you. I suggest we need people like to represent our people in gurdwara. At the moment nearly all ravidassia gurdwara are run by amateurs who don't really have a clue. If you feel strongly i suggest you join the committees.

Conclusion, many Sikhs need to be educated.

I myself have been rejected many times for marriage proposals simply because i am of the wrong caste.

Frustration like this can be hard to accept which is why sometimes you start to go your own way. I am assuming many chamars running ravidassia gurdwara may have personal bad experiences with other castes leading to these views of diverging from Sikhism.

I am even afraid of joining matrimonial listing in gurdwara of fear of rejection because of caste. Its a all a big joke. But marriage is the final proof if caste is still around or not.

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read my comments above too.. but also something else i added on a different ravidassia thread..

Matha tekna to paintings is simply what uneducated people do. Educate them but its not really that much if a crime?

Aso why do worshippers touch the stone stairs outside leading into SS gurdwara's?? Doesn't make sense but i guess the above applies in the same way.

Wether ravidass was a guru or not is not really relevant. It depends on the defintion of guru. I undersand guru to mean teacher. Hence we learn't lots from ravidass so why not say he was a guru?

Also many of the 10 gurus were selcted from family members. I don't think that is consistent with what a real guru should be. Ravidass came from no where, and established him self with no help from no one.

Also if the SGGS is a living guru, then by definition anyone who contributed to those holy scriptures should also be Guru.

Mathematically..

Living Guru(SGGS) = Guru+Guru+.......+Guru etc

Are you lot saying...

Living Guru (SGGS)= Guru+Bhagat+Guru+.....+bhagat etc... this would devalue the SGGS to living bhagat???

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At the moment nearly all ravidassia gurdwara are run by amateurs who don't really have a clue.

Conclusion, many Sikhs need to be educated.

I am assuming many chamars running ravidassia gurdwara may have personal bad experiences with other castes leading to these views of diverging from Sikhism.

But marriage is the final proof if caste is still around or not.

agree with the above :TH: i havent been to many "ravidassia gurdwarey" about 5.. i've never sin a Singh in the comittee - there are some singh's in the sangat ..i think it would have a realy positive effect to get singhs to take over the comittees so that kids in the sangat would see that there are people with a sikh roop within the commutnity. i've found that ppl from chamaar background who are amritshak begin to go elsewhere an so the "ravidass sangat" dont see that others have found the true path... i've got an uncle who used 2 be typical punjabi and then became amritdhari literaly overnight and now hes a granthi :lol: at a different gurdwara ... when people within this community find truth they stop going to ravidass gurdware...which i understand completely...cuz id do th same blush.gif

in regards to this part :

I am assuming many chamars running ravidassia gurdwara may have personal bad experiences with other castes leading to these views of diverging from Sikhism.

i think thats a general problem (in the UK) within th "elder generation" ie our parents and their parents. actually come to think of it all generations cus some of my cousins are like that rolleyes.gif i guess they'r just told stuff by ther parents/grandparents and they dont look any deeper to find their own answers... education all the waaaaayyyy!! lol

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I totally agree with you, if only people go and visit and see for themselves, they will see no difference to any other gurdwara. We go to respect the holy Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

The Gurdwara does not belong to a particular caste, we think it does by the name of the gurdwara but it is open to all sikhs. Ive visited handsworth Gurdwara and there is no difference.

We need to stop getting into a hindu tradition of caste, We as sikhs now follow this tradition more than hindus and we say we are proud sikhs. We criticise sikhs from different backgrounds because we say they do things differently. If you go back home to punjab, india depending on which part of punjab you goto there is a slight difference in traditions, rituals or even the language punjabi. We should just respect everyone and stop getting into silly debates.

Chamar from punjab are mainly all Sikhs, like many other sikh castes. I know sikhs in this country who have converted to christianity, islam and sikhs who have families who still today follow many hindu traditions. They also don't call themselves sikhs yet they were born in sikh families.

Isn't the idea to become a better sikh yourself than worrying about the next person.

Seeing as many of you are making statements about Ravidas Gudware without actually having been to one, let me clear some misconception up.....seeing as I apparently fall into this f**ked up idea of a chamaar caste and caste system in general.

Firslty, what is a Gudwara?

The home of Maharaji.....regardless of whether the Gudware 'belongs' to a particular caste or not....you primary goal is to go and see and give your respect to Maharaji.

Secondly, whilst I disagree with the use of Guru when referring to Bhagat Ravidass....the Gudware and every function of the Gudwara (Handsworth/Grove Lane) is just the same as every other Gudware.....

I think the issue here is the old system of having some Gudware being run by commite (as the Grove Lane one is)....I've seen the committee....sadly lacking in Gursikhs.....and with the old system comes the old way of life...aka the caste issue.

Regardless of whether a Gudware is a Ravidass or Ramgharia or Bhatra Gudwara, your only intention as a Gursikh when visiting such places is to see Maharaji.

I don't think we can lay waste to all such sacred places, even if the Gudware claim to be part of particular group and we CERTAINLY shouldnt begin to critize all who go that Gudware or all who fall into these backwards caste ideas....

I for one find the Ravidass Gudware on Grove Lane reallly peaceful and I have NO problem going to ANY Gudware from any caste...as long as I get the dharshan of my Maharaji..

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I totally agree with you, if only people go and visit and see for themselves, they will see no difference to any other gurdwara. We go to respect the holy Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

The Gurdwara does not belong to a particular caste, we think it does by the name of the gurdwara but it is open to all sikhs. Ive visited handsworth Gurdwara and there is no difference.

We need to stop getting into a hindu tradition of caste, We as sikhs now follow this tradition more than hindus and we say we are proud sikhs. We criticise sikhs from different backgrounds because we say they do things differently. If you go back home to punjab, india depending on which part of punjab you goto there is a slight difference in traditions, rituals or even the language punjabi. We should just respect everyone and stop getting into silly debates.

Chamar from punjab are mainly all Sikhs, like many other sikh castes. I know sikhs in this country who have converted to christianity, islam and sikhs who have families who still today follow many hindu traditions. They also don't call themselves sikhs yet they were born in sikh families.

Isn't the idea to become a better sikh yourself than worrying about the next person.

Spoken like a true chamar lol, let me tell you most chamars in india have hindu names and there is more chamars outside punjab then there is inside. They are not sikh, the only way they call themselves sikhs is because in history when your ancestors were working on our farms during the census we counted your lot as sikhs - even though we disagree with your ways, but the opportunity came to use your numbers to boost our political power rather than your lot saying your christian,hindu,muslim or whatever you beleive.

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Spoken like a true chamar lol, let me tell you most chamars in india have hindu names and there is more chamars outside punjab then there is inside. They are not sikh, the only way they call themselves sikhs is because in history when your ancestors were working on our farms during the census we counted your lot as sikhs - even though we disagree with your ways, but the opportunity came to use your numbers to boost our political power rather than your lot saying your christian,hindu,muslim or whatever you beleive.

Firstly a name does not define a person their actions do.

Secondly which history books or history accounts are you referring too? My ancestors are from farming background (Jatt / Zamindar), and what you are saying is a load of BS.

Sikhs are Sikhs. Full stop.

Also like you say about more people of a certain caste outside of punjab than in well guess what, theres more Punjabis in Pakistan than in India. Whats more there are more Jatts in Pakistan Punjab than in Indian Punjab. They are Muslim in Punjab province and in Punjab State Sikh.

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