Amritdharees Marrying Non Amritdharees

[jassa]

I dont know if anyone else has noticed, but Jassa (who has a lot to say) uses everything OUTSIDE of Gurbani to justify his wacky beliefs.

Stick to gurmat man, not he-said she-said fairytales.

Fateh.

lol :wub: @ gurumat is what u get from guru ... NOT scholars ... who started their own rehat in 1920s ... gurusmat see where sikhi is in chardikalla ... one is tradition since 1699 other is tradition since 1920 ... for many purtan rehat given by guru covered by rehat mareyada written by bhai dayea singh and can be a fairy tale ... but who cares :nihungsmile: ... its all ur karams and bhags what sikhi u get gurus or sacholars ...

[Guest Narinder Singh]

I dont know if anyone else has noticed, but Jassa (who has a lot to say) uses everything OUTSIDE of Gurbani to justify his wacky beliefs.

Stick to gurmat man, not he-said she-said fairytales.

Fateh.

lol :wub: @ gurumat is what u get from guru ... NOT scholars ... who started their own rehat in 1920s ... gurusmat see where sikhi is in chardikalla ... one is tradition since 1699 other is tradition since 1920 ... for many purtan rehat given by guru covered by rehat mareyada written by bhai dayea singh and can be a fairy tale ... but who cares :nihungsmile: ... its all ur karams and bhags what sikhi u get gurus or sacholars ...

Scholars? Did scholars write Gurbani??? And where and when did i even mention scholars? You need to lay off that bhang for a bit, you aint fighting any battles now.

Try to back up your ridiculous beliefs with gurbani my friend, not some bogus rehitnamme that i could've written up and called guru gobind singh jis.

And you wanna go back to tradition and the "old ways"? Then im sure youd love seeing statues of hindu gods in our gurdwareh and kanjariya dancing in darbar sahib.

Fateh.

[jassa]

I dont know if anyone else has noticed, but Jassa (who has a lot to say) uses everything OUTSIDE of Gurbani to justify his wacky beliefs.

Stick to gurmat man, not he-said she-said fairytales.

Fateh.

lol :wub: @ gurumat is what u get from guru ... NOT scholars ... who started their own rehat in 1920s ... gurusmat see where sikhi is in chardikalla ... one is tradition since 1699 other is tradition since 1920 ... for many purtan rehat given by guru covered by rehat mareyada written by bhai dayea singh and can be a fairy tale ... but who cares :nihungsmile: ... its all ur karams and bhags what sikhi u get gurus or sacholars ...

Scholars? Did scholars write Gurbani??? And where and when did i even mention scholars? You need to lay off that bhang for a bit, you aint fighting any battles now.

Try to back up your ridiculous beliefs with gurbani my friend, not some bogus rehitnamme that i could've written up and called guru gobind singh jis.

And you wanna go back to tradition and the "old ways"? Then im sure youd love seeing statues of hindu gods in our gurdwareh and kanjariya dancing in darbar sahib.

Fateh.

lol dont worry about my bhang dude bhang assi peendi nasha tuhanu ho reha ... difference between singhs and sheep anyways ... why not counter my beliefs with gurubani ... i always back up my self with history unlike using guru granth sahib as my lawyer ... i have backed everything its time for you to counter them .... if u cant take ur harmoniam on side chant ur lalkares lol ....

nah nah dont worry about harimander sahib we have nihungs like sukha and mehtab singh till date to safe gaurd it ... NOT to make it chauni and spread terror ...

u want to perform incest go ahead who is stopping you .... :nihungsmile: .... go ahead ...

just a question in hazzor sahib till amrit sanchar is started their by guru sahib its first jathedar was bhai santokh singh .... and its followed till date ... so which year u think this mareyada was changed and kard amrit was introduced ??? their is linage from first jathedar to present jathedar can u point out which jathedar changed mareyada of khande di paul their ??? which year ... same is with patna sahib and other guru dwaras ...

which year takth sri akal takth sahibs mareyada was changed about amrit before which was later changed again in 1923 or according to you resorted back ???? can u provide any time line ???

[Bijla Singh]

just a question in hazzor sahib till amrit sanchar is started their by guru sahib its first jathedar was bhai santokh singh .... and its followed till date

I would like to see the historical proof of this. When Baba Banda Singh was given Amrit Khanday Ki Pahul was prepared and this is recorded to be the first Amrit Sanchaar in the south. It is recorded in many sources. As time changes, people change and so does the tradition. Since Hazoor Sahib was far removed from Sikhi, maryada could not be restored to original and mahants did whatever they wanted.

Taksal can point out every jathedar it is had and so can every other group that claims to have been started by Guru Sahib. But can we find historical proof or any reference? Doubtful. So the authenticity does not exist. Same with "maryada" at Hazoor Sahib. Till this day there are many anti-Sikhi elements being practiced there. Any "puratan maryada" must have a reason based on Gurmat which they don't other than it is "puratan" and we've been practicing it for a long time. Sikhs in nepal have statue of Guru Nanak Sahib which is worshiped. Should we start doing that since they've been doing it for a long time now? I am sure you understand that reliable proof from credible source is required if you want to convince someone. Reason determines authenticity.

[jassa]

brother no one is saying women is not given khande di paul or men is given kard di paul ... every one is free to take what ever he she want .... but thats mareyada ... leave hazzor sahib on side for a second ... ur a taksali singh ... right u must have heard of harianbelan nihung singh jathebandi in which gaddi of baba deep singh is on and now its baba nihal singh present head of jathebandi ...

just one question do u think harianbelan jathebandi is also brhamised by anti sikh elements such as hazoor sahib ... as kard di paul is also prepared in their amrit sanchars for bibis ??? what are your views on that !!!! baba nihal singh and sant bhindrawalle had very close relations yet why not they imposed their mareyada over each other like we do today ...

every thing we cant understand thats brhmanvad .... just provide me time line when mareyada was changed in hazoor and patna sahib regarding amrit sanchar ??? when kard di paul was introduced !!!!

[Guest Narinder Singh]

lol dont worry about my bhang dude bhang assi peendi nasha tuhanu ho reha ... difference between singhs and sheep anyways ... why not counter my beliefs with gurubani ... i always back up my self with history unlike using guru granth sahib as my lawyer ... i have backed everything its time for you to counter them .... if u cant take ur harmoniam on side chant ur lalkares lol ....

Yup, singhs dont need bhang because they can handle the TRUTH, sheeps on the other hand will take bhang because they cant. And why should i have to counter your beliefs with gurbani when your beliefs are the ones that arent mainstream? if you really want someone to seriously acknowledge your wacky beliefs, you need to back them up. And just because something happened in history it doesnt make it right, thats a dumb way of justifying things. And guru granth sahib isnt a lawyer, guru sahib is the JUDGE. Harmonium and lalkare??? Was i supposed to laugh somewhere there?

nah nah dont worry about harimander sahib we have nihungs like sukha and mehtab singh till date to safe gaurd it ... NOT to make it chauni and spread terror ...

Ummm..news flash buddy, sukha and mehtab singh are no more..oh wait im sorry, is the bhang kicking in again? Yup the nihangs sure did safegaurd harmandir sahib when it was attacked in '84! Nope..im wrong, YOU WISHED THEY SAFEGAURDED HARMANDIR SAHIB IN '84...(or maybe not)

u want to perform incest go ahead who is stopping you .... :nihungsmile: .... go ahead ...

Ummm..is it the bhang again?

just a question in hazzor sahib till amrit sanchar is started their by guru sahib its first jathedar was bhai santokh singh .... and its followed till date ... so which year u think this mareyada was changed and kard amrit was introduced ??? their is linage from first jathedar to present jathedar can u point out which jathedar changed mareyada of khande di paul their ??? which year ... same is with patna sahib and other guru dwaras ...

With all due respect, its pretty funny that you pick hazoor sahib (nihang central) out of all the takhts and gurdwareh through out the world to push your agenda. What goes on at hazoor sahib is far from gurmat, and im sure majority of the khalsa panth would agree. Again, just because anti-sikh activities took place and/or still taking place, it doesnt make it right.

which year takth sri akal takth sahibs mareyada was changed about amrit before which was later changed again in 1923 or according to you resorted back ???? can u provide any time line ???

Ummm..WHAT??

[jassa]

:nihungsmile: lol atleast bhang drinkers DONT perform INCEST .... :nihungsmile: .... if u are addicted to it go on dude who is stopping u .... ....

you cant tell the year when mareyada was introduced of kard da amrit .... nor u can back urself with any gurbani or history or rehat mareyada .... :wub: ...

and saying bhang and bhang will not prove ur point :wub: it will just make u look fool and frustrated ... lol ....may be u have tied ur starched pagri to tight today .... u need to loosen it up a bit .... :nihungsmile:

[japmans]

jasssa bhaaji

i haven`t been a part of this discussion, but for a reader's persepective, can you respond to Bijla Singh? I thought his post was very well thought out, and it'd be nice to have your response to it.

Vaheguru

[Bijla Singh]

brother no one is saying women is not given khande di paul or men is given kard di paul ... every one is free to take what ever he she want .... but thats mareyada ...

And when did it start? By who? And most importantly what are the sources. I support Khanday Ki Pahul and very well can provide references and eye witness accounts. Keep in mind that one time idol worship in Darbar Sahib was also regarded as “maryada”.

leave hazzor sahib on side for a second ... ur a taksali singh ... right u must have heard of harianbelan nihung singh jathebandi in which gaddi of baba deep singh is on and now its baba nihal singh present head of jathebandi ...

First of all, I am not a “taksali singh”. I highly respect Taksal and their seva for the panth but I will look at Gurmat reasoning to make my decision.

just one question do u think harianbelan jathebandi is also brhamised by anti sikh elements such as hazoor sahib ... as kard di paul is also prepared in their amrit sanchars for bibis ??? what are your views on that !!!! baba nihal singh and sant bhindrawalle had very close relations yet why not they imposed their mareyada over each other like we do today ...

Every jatha has bad people and some not so pro-gurmat elements. Nihungs eat sukha and perform jhatka and I highly oppose it. Being friends doesn’t mean having the same viewpoint. Even if a particular nihung jatha prepares karad “amrit” they must have a reason and must be able to back it up with some rationality. Always keep in mind that Sikhi is not defined by behavior of an individual or his jatha. Rather, Sikhi defines a Sikh and behavior of a Sikh sometimes may reflect the trueness of Sikhi. But a Sikh never defines Sikhi, Gurbani does.

every thing we cant understand thats brhmanvad .... just provide me time line when mareyada was changed in hazoor and patna sahib regarding amrit sanchar ??? when kard di paul was introduced !!!!

This is not a strong argument and shows that you yourself do not have much knowledge of something you are defending. I don’t care what label you put on karad amrit but I know that it is not a process of initiation into Khalsa. Maryada at Hazoor Sahib and Patna Sahib shouldn’t be looked upon as authentic but rather unauthentic because they have been disconnected from the mainstream Sikhi of Punjab. Singh Sabha reintroduced many Sikhi practices in Punjab but there was no such movement in the south and no one to object the false practices. Can you provide me any reference that illustrates the maryada being practiced there? Any historic document? Just look at the majority people there. They are vanjaras who openly deny adopting Khalsa rehat and wish to wear dhotis and hindu sacred threads. They may have shardha but that alone doesn’t make them Sikhs. When Khalsa had to live in jungles many Gurdwaras in Punjab were left to be taken over by non-Sikhs. So who do you think managed takhats in the south where there were hardly any Sikhs until 1947?

Now, let’s do some evaluation. Without Amrit no one can become a Sikh be it a man or a woman. Before 1699, Guru Sahib used to give Charan Pahul as a way of initiation. Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Jait Mal Ji, Bhai Kanheeya Ji, Baba Deep Chand, Bhai Mani Ram and many others took charan pahul and later took Khanday Ki Pahul and became Singhs. The point is that charan pahul was mandatory for everyone. Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji, Soochak Parsang Guru Ka by Bhai Behlo Ji (Sikh of Guru Arjan Dev Ji) and Bhatt Vahis clearly mention charan pahul so it is clear that charan pahul was in fact the only way for everyone to become Sikh. There is no historic reference that states otherwise. Vaars written by Bhai Gurdas Ji (almost 100 years before 1699) state that Anand Karaj must be between two Sikhs. Bhai Sahib considered someone a Sikh who had obtained naam from the Guru after taking charan pahul. So how did women become Sikhs prior to 1699 since there was only one Amrit (charan pahul)? Were they all niguray and Sikhs still married them? Because that would be anti-Sikhi. If women took charan pahul like men then it proves that both took the same Amrit and did get married. The only change that was brought was Khanday Ki Pahul and rest remained the same.

Taking Amrit is a requirement not an option because Sikhi is path of submission and following hukam not having and choosing options which is manmat. I have already given an example of Mayee Bhaag kaur who was an Amritdhari and wanted to have a son. Could she, being the companion of Guru Sahib, have thoughts that were contrary to Sikh beliefs? No.

Now, when charan pahul was abandoned why did Guru Sahib make two different “Amrits”? Why did Guru Sahib not have a separate way for women for 230 years and then all of the sudden there were two distinct ways of becoming Sikhs with two unique preparation methods? Do you really think Guru Sahib thought less of women and felt that perhaps khanday ki pahul had too much power that would be unbearable for women as supporters of kirpan amrit claim today? Guru Sahib clearly states in Gurbani that there is only one Guru, one Bani and one Amrit (not two) i.e “Nanak Amrit Ek Hai..”. So who should we listen to? Gurbani and historical references such as Vaars or mahants at Hazoor Sahib who don’t let Amritdhari women take parkarma of Shashtars? I don’t think you or any nihung jatha would have any rational answers.

Now, we come to kirpan amrit’s history. According to Bhatt Vahis Thaynesar Pargana, some Sikhs asked Guru Sahib about giving Amrit to new born babies. Guru Sahib said that when a woman became a mother, after 10 days bring her to Gurdwara (Dharamsaal), put some water in a small bowl, read JapJi Sahib and then six pauris of Anand Sahib while sliding kirpan back and forth in the water. After that put some drops in the mouth of the infant and give rest to the mother. When the child grows up give him Khanday Ki Pahul. Now, that is the history of kirpan amrit. It was introduced with means of janam sanskar. Also, make a note that no distinction has been made between a boy and a girl. The woman (mother) has to be Amritdhari or Khalsa.

I can list many more questions but at the end you need to step back and think about this with an open mind. I have already provided a link that refutes kirpan amrit. “Khalsa” is used for both men and women. Can there be marriage between Khalsa and non-Khalsa? No. No historic reference validates kirpan amrit or even states that men cannot have sexual relations with their wives. I emphasize this once again: Marriage must be between two Sikhs. A non-Amritdhari woman is not a Sikh. There is only One Amrit and one way to become Guru-wala and that is Khanday Ki Pahul. Vaar 41 written by Bhai Gurdas Singh Ji very well states it. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

P.S. – I can provide exact quotes from the sources I have named.

[00gurpreet_singh00]

"Vaars written by Bhai Gurdas Ji (almost 100 years before 1699) state that Anand Karaj must be between two Sikhs."

Can you please the vaar and pauri that this is stated in?