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Oldest Surviving Rehat Manuscript (1718/1719 Ad)


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Just for your information, older Rehatnamas do exist.

Please share your knowledge with the sangat.

Also, on what pages of Padam's work is MS770? Can anyone point me to it?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28317819/Rehatnamay-Piara-Singh-Padam

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Fascinating topic. So have we decided whether the rehat as described in the first post is authentic or not?

I've yet to come across any solid argument suggesting it is not.

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I've yet to come across any solid argument suggesting it is not.

The reason I ask about its authenticity is because I'm a bit confused as to why Guru Ji would mention stuff about sleeping without clothes on the lower half of one's body, how to cover yourself when having carnal relations, etc. I just thought that kind of talk was beneath our venerable Guru Ji.

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Many (not all) early Rehats don't mention Kakkaars by name but refer to them such as; don't shave your beard (= kes), do not sleep naked (= kachehra), etc.

Well many manuscripts are in several universities in Punjab and also Uttaranchal, nobody cared to research about them. There is one early 1700s Rehatnama which is in Patiala. Most of the Rehatnamas known to us are fake: even Padam says that in his book.

Just go to Tankhahnama in Padams book and you will find MS770.

(It is the second Rehat - from page 56 onwards.)

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The reason I ask about its authenticity is because I'm a bit confused as to why Guru Ji would mention stuff about sleeping without clothes on the lower half of one's body, how to cover yourself when having carnal relations, etc. I just thought that kind of talk was beneath our venerable Guru Ji.

Veer ji, read Charitrio pakyaan in the Dasam Granth and see for yourself is our Guru ji was a prudish type.

5abisingh - Thanks for the tip.

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Veer ji, read Charitrio pakyaan in the Dasam Granth and see for yourself is our Guru ji was a prudish type.

Charitropakhayan are stories that already existed and are being retold by Guru sahib. At end of every charitra

it is written Mantri-Bhup sambade. This means story as being told by a minsiter to his king. It is immoral to pick some

lines and quote those out of context.

Story has a moral value and that is the essence of story and not story itself. The purpose is to caution khalsa from moral pitfalls.

Most of charitras were and are quoted out of context by some rogue organizations whose main aim is to propagate against Dasam

granth sahib. Lust is mentioned in Guru Granth sahib also. Charitropakahyan tells us this is lust and we should not fall a victim to it.

And do not forget that quoted rehat of this tankahnama says

He is a Khalsa who triumphs over the five (evil impulses) (kam, krodh, moh etc.).

That sums up Guru sahib's edict on such things especially when extra marital indulgence is categorized as one bajjar kurehit for His khalsa.

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What are you on about GPS?

I don't know what you're trying to say but my point (in response to kalyugi's) was that discussing such topics wasn't taboo by Guru ji if CP is anything to go by.

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dalsingh101 ji

I have the book rehtname by Pira singh padam. Today after kalyugi posted his query, i read the relevant section from the book. For example he asked

The reason I ask about its authenticity is because I'm a bit confused as to why Guru Ji would mention stuff about sleeping without clothes on the lower half of one's body,

It seems the above refers to line in rehatnama

ratri soye terh hoye nangaeh

The above means a sikh should not sleep without kachhera. That is the instructon to khalsa when he is initiated.

The reply should have been that there may be some errors in literal translation as Mcleod is not an expert on Punjabi language

and has committed some errors while translating.

Guru ji is advising about rehat. How does charitropakhayan comes in this?

Moreover today i found that the translated part in your original post does not follow the pattern written in original rehatnama

given in book of Piara singh padam.Are you aware of that?

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Guru ji is advising about rehat. How does charitropakhayan comes in this?

There seems to be some people who seem to be under the impression that Guru sahibs were somewhat 'puritan' in the modern English sense of the word. I mean this as in shying away from directly addressing issues of kaam. The quote from the brother below is possibly reflective of this?

I just thought that kind of talk was beneath our venerable Guru Ji.

Some people attribute this thinking to the trickling down of suppressed Victorian English values influencing some members of our community after the 'annexation' mainly through British education in the Panjab. Individuals involved in the Singh Sabha lehar, are sometimes cited as examples of this, rightly or wrongly.

I was using Chatrio Pakyaan as an example to show that this prudish approach to addressing matters of kaam is not a true Sikh one if Charitrio Pakyaan is anything to go by .

In any case, do you think McLeod translated this line wrong? ratri soye terh hoye nangaeh - What do you suggest it is then?

I'm mapping the translation to the Gurmukhi text in Padam's work and notice the chaupai that contains a large list of Khalsa attributes starting with 'Khalsa soie' (He is a Khalsa...) is different in Padam's text and the McLeod translation (former larger). I think Padam reconstructed MS770 including missing portions, whereas McLeod translated the manuscript as he found it at Amritsar. This appears to be an abridged version of a larger one? So MS770 itself is based on an older, presumably larger manuscript. I think McLeod says as much?

I'm not a big fan of his ideas, incase anyone is wondering. Thought I'd just let people know. But he does seem to have got this right (the manuscript being derived from another).

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