Oldest Surviving Rehat Manuscript (1718/1719 Ad)

[dalsingh101]

It is entirely possible, if not likely, that the surviving Chaupa Singh rehat has been made by multiple authors, but which does contain some of an original one dated as you state.

If this is the case I wonder why no one has tried to extract the older passages from the manuscript myself? Actually, now the original has been lost this would be very difficult to do based on anything other than analysing the language.

Please find that document you mentioned regarding dating and share it with the sangat please.

I wonder how an reconstructed Chaupa rehat would compare to the other early one in the original post?

[GPS]

There is not a major change but some additions by the copiers. Whenever such documents were written copies were made of.

The copiers have done some additions on their own.It is like updating. It has happened with many other sikh writings including SGGS

ji.

[dalsingh101]

There is not a major change but some additions by the copiers. Whenever such documents were written copies were made of.

The copiers have done some additions on their own.It is like updating. It has happened with many other sikh writings including SGGS

ji.

Personally I wouldn't compare SGGS ji with puratan rehats myself. The former, as far as Sikhs are concerned, has no question mark on any authorship or authenticity. Plus we know they were the unadulterated manifestation of the Guru's direct intention. The same cannot be said for these rehats as you yourself point out above.

It seems like these are at best interpretations of what the authors believed to be Guru Gobind Singh ji's intentions in terms of a code of conduct, which probably do contain much of which was sanctioned by him and also (in most likelihood) their own interpretations of matters.

If this is true then it would support a hypothesis that the original rehat was a more compact affair and that it subsequently grew as people added their own interpretations to it?

Do you believe dasmesh pita invoked Kali/Durga on the eve of creating the Khalsa??

[GPS]

No one is questioning the authenticity of SGGS ji. May be you are not aware of standardization of present saroop of SGGS ji by SGPC.

Rehatanamas are a code of conduct and there is no question on authenticity of Chaupa singh's rehatnama also.

It was stated that Gurbakhash singh from his family seems to have updated it. That does not turn the rehtanama unauthentic.One needs to read

it and then it will be understood better.

Dalsingh wrote

Do you believe dasmesh pita invoked Kali/Durga on the eve of creating the Khalsa??

You seem to be a very forgetful person. We have discussed it threadbare on this forum. .

Many posts have been made citing bani of tenth master proving his belief in akal purakh.

I have seen some discussing this point with you on many other forums to set your doubts about dasam granth

at rest.

What makes you to make this statement again? Did you find it in his writings?

[5abiSingh]

Chaupa Singh Rehatnama has additions. Two parts are easily distinguishable - they are about Brahmins and are out of place in the context of the Rehat.

Some parts of the Rehatnama are found in Bansawlinama - 1769.

But I don't think internal evidence is enough to say something is authentic. Rehatnama Prehlad Singh says written in 1695 in Abchalnagar when Guru Gobind Singh was there. History shows that Guru Ji didn't go to Abchal Nagar uptil 1708. So don't only rely on internal dating.

Chaupa Singh Rehatnama is too big, I am sure much has been added lateron. I got few articles analysing it (in Punjabi).

DalSingh - MS770 is oldest manuscript which contains Nasihatnama. It is a large manuscript and one chapter of it is Nasihatnama. Older copies probably existed but are non existent today.

(BTW, You can find old Nasihatnama manuscripts with 20 stanzas, 35 stanzas, 43 stanzas or even 62 stanzas.)

[GPS]

Two parts are easily distinguishable - they are about Brahmins and are out of place in the context

.

5abisingh ji

Chaupa singh's rehatnama writes at some places that a Guru ka sikh should have no dealing with any brahmin.

At another place it writes about Guru ka brahmin. In my opinion it is a reference to him as being close to Guru sahib.

For example Chaupa singh writes

1) brahme mohammed ki kaan na kare ( A Guru's sikh should ahve no belief in Hinduism and islam)

2) Sikh Guru ka dekhe, jaat baran na dekhe ( A sikh should not consider caste when dealing with a Guru's sikh)

3)karaj vivah nu Brahmin na sadde ( Do not call any brahmin on marriages)

4 Guru Ka sikh inha athan di sangat na kare and at no 7 he mentions Brahmin.( A Guru's sikh should not keep company of a Brahmin)

[dalsingh101]

Rehatanamas are a code of conduct and there is no question on authenticity of Chaupa singh's rehatnama also.

It was stated that Gurbakhash singh from his family seems to have updated it. That does not turn the rehtanama unauthentic.One needs to read it and then it will be understood better.

Well, if there were no questions I think people would have been able to use it completely for the purpose that the current rehat maryada serves. There is lots of debate regarding this rehat one way or another, so for you to grossly simplify the issue into one which appears to give an impression that there are no questions is plain wrong.

In any case I would prefer if this thread weren't turned into a discussion of the Chaupa Singh rehit but rather focused on the one posted in the original thread that some purport to be the oldest. Maybe we should start another thread to discuss the Chaupa Singh rehit? If you want to actually contribute constructively, I suggest you use your skills and present the sangat with the complete, unadulterated version of the Chapua Singh rehat as you see it, explaining what you excluded and why you did this. I would be very interested to see this myself. You could post that here as an alternative contender and the sangat could then easily compare the two.

You seem to be a very forgetful person. We have discussed it threadbare on this forum. .

Many posts have been made citing bani of tenth master proving his belief in akal purakh.

I have seen some discussing this point with you on many other forums to set your doubts about dasam granth

at rest.

What makes you to make this statement again? Did you find it in his writings? [/b]

I'm going by that analysis that I posted earlier in English, which claims that the Chaupa Singh rehat reinforces the story of the invocation of Durga on the eve of emergence of the Khalsa. If this rehat actually contains material to that effect, that alone would cause the vast majority of mainline Sikhs to seriously question its antecedents.

If your first language is Panjabi you should be able to read Panjabi much faster and more accurate than me. If you get a chance, see if you can locate the portion of the rehat that covers the Chandi episode in Padam's work. You should be able to do this much quicker than me.

Then we could make an informed opinion on some of the contents of the rehat.

Personally I think you don't apply critical faculties enough to historical works myself. You seem to be largely unaware of possible interpolations and mistaken assumptions on part of rehat writers. As we see with your last post, clearly interpolations have taken place, some of these may be blatantly identifiable, but maybe, just maybe, some of these may not be so overtly conspicuous?

I don't think I am a 'generally forgetful' person, I just like to study things carefully when I can and not jump to conclusions too quickly. I have no doubt that Guru Gobind Singh was solely a worshipper of Akal Purakh, I'm just wondering how these tales of Durga worship came into the story, and that too at such an early stage of Khalsa history. In any case, I'm conducting ongoing studies of the Dasam Granth and that is covered in other threads I have commented in, so no need to mix these issues.

So again to refocus to the original purpose of my initiating this thread a few years ago:

What do we make of the rehat posted in the original thread. Does anyone know of any solid reasons to doubt it's claim to be the earliest one found so far? And also, if they claim to know of an earlier one, can they give a manuscript number, date and location of this earlier rehat? Plus how does this potentially earlier one compare to the one this thread is about?

Thank you.

[GPS]

Guru Gobind singh ji left behind his writings named as Dasam Granth. That is the criteria to judge whether he believed in kali/Durga or not.

When we have his own views about divine power we should not look for second hand sources to make Guru sahib a devi worshipper.

I believe in what he wrote in his bani. I give a few quotes from his bani which make quite clear that he was not believer in any deity. Those

who ignore this and keep on doubting him as worshipper of any multi armed devi of Hindu faith are doing great disservice to Him.

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥

He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there

Dasam Granth sahib

ਜਿਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਹੋਸੀ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਜਾਸੀ ॥

जिते देव होसी ॥ सभै अंत जासी ॥

All the gods who will come into being in future, they will all ultimately expire.

ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਸਿਵ ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਜੁਗੀਆ ਹੈ ॥

काल ही पाइ भयो ब्रहमा सिव काल ही पाइ भयो जुगीआ है ॥

At the instance of KAL, Brahma appeared and also at the instance of KAL the Yogi Shiva appeared.

ਕਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਸੁਰਾਸੁਰ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਜੱਛ ਭੁਜੰਗ ਦਿਸਾ ਬਿਦਿਸਾ ਹੈ ॥

काल ही पाइ सुरासुर गंध्रब ज्छ भुजंग दिसा बिदिसा है ॥

At the instance of KAL, the gods, demons, Gandharvas, Yakshas, Bhujang, directions and indications have appeared.

ਔਰ ਸੁਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਬਸ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕਾਲ ਅਕਾਲ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੮੪॥

और सुकाल सभै बस काल के एक ही काल अकाल सदा है ॥८४॥

All the other prevalent object are within KAL, only One supreme KAL is ever Timeless and eternal.84.

-----

ਨਮੋ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ॥ ਭਵਾਣੰ ਭਵੇਅੰ ॥੮੬॥

नमो देव देवं ॥ भवाणं भवेअं ॥८६॥

Salutation to Him, who is God of gods. Salutation to Him, who shall ever be within the world.86.

Bachitra natak, dasam granth sahib

[dalsingh101]

Now you are ruining the thread.

No one is doubting that Dasmesh Pita worshipped Akaal Purakh only. Can I respectfully ask you to remove your last post and stick it in a thread about GGS ji and Kali.

[GPS]

I have only replied to your question about invocation of kali/durga by tenth master which is given below

Dalsingh101 wrote

Do you believe dasmesh pita invoked Kali/Durga on the eve of creating the Khalsa??

You need to correct the contents of tankahnama as the ones posted by you ( Mcleod's source) are

completely at odd with Padam's book. There is a major difference between the contents.

How can you discuss a document which has inaccurate content.

For example tankahnama starts as

Question Bhai Nand Lal

Vaak Sri gobind Singh ji

Dohra

Prashan kia Nand lal ji, guru batayie moh ( Nanad lal posed a question, Guru ji tell me)

Kaun Karam in jog hai, kaun karam nahin soye

But when we see your first post it does not start as such.It starts as below

He who utters the divine Word without understanding gains nothing.

He who neglects to bow after completing a reading from the sacred scripture will find himself cut off from God.

If he who distributes [karah] prashad is greedy (keeping a large portion for himself),

Or if he serves unequal portions, he will eternally regret his transgression

Hear now the method to be followed when preparing karah [prashad], how the three ingredients are to be mixed in equal quantities.

The place where this is to be prepared is to be swept and plastered, the cooking vessel to be scoured and then washed clean.

Bathe yourself so that you come to the task unpolluted, uttering nothing save ‘Vahiguru’.

Fill a new pitcher with water, confident that Guru Gobind Singh will bless the undertaking.

When it is ready place it on a four legged stool and sitting around it sing kirtan.