Oldest Surviving Rehat Manuscript (1718/1719 Ad)

[Guest Akirtghan]

i like this topic :wub:

k i got a question about that last screen shot. it says

Cih isK Awsn bIr lvIjY

does the word Cih mean 6? :wub:

[dalsingh101]

Bilja

Someone told me that according to that account Guru Ji asked the Panj piaray to behead goats, I didn't read that in the extracts you posted. Do you know if this is true?

[Bijla Singh]

hmmm, interesting. So who brought forth the idea of Mata jee putting pataase in the bata? And I thought it was Mataa Saaheb Kaur jee?

No source says that Mata Sahib Kaur put patasay. All point to Mata Ajit Kaur Ji (Jeeto Ji) but I personally don't agree with it because I believe Amrit was preplanned just like establishing Khalsa.

does the word Cih mean 6?

Panj Pyare and Guru Sahib.

Someone told me that according to that account Guru Ji asked the Panj piaray to behead goats, I didn't read that in the extracts you posted. Do you know if this is true?

The name is Bijla Singh. J comes before L. :wub: The account I am posting doesn't support this idea. Beheading goats come from other sources and this notion is not accepted by any Sikh scholar. Bhatt Vahis Thanaysar also talk about beheading goats but Gurbani says that Guru doesn't cheat and has the power to kill and then give life and keep someone alive without breaths.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੈ ॥

My True Guru kills and revives.

So when rejecting portion of a historic record we must have reasoning based on Gurmat. There are at least 10 sources that say that Guru Sahib worshiped a hindu goddess but it can be refuted using Gurbani and history. There were many cults that were trying to tamper with Sikh history and write false literature. Prithi Chand, brother of Guru Sahib, is one of them.

[Bored]

interesting stuff!

[dalsingh101]

Sorry Bijla (Current na maar! :wub: )

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੈ ॥

My True Guru kills and revives.

If the above is Gurbani then we have to remember that the Guru's Guru was Waheguru itself. So I would take it as a reference to God by Guru ji or a Bhagat. A brahmgianis satguru is Waheguru, isn't it?

In reference to the story about asking the panj to chop off goats head. I'm not even attempting to claim i know what exactly happened but if this is based on an authentic early source, it could indicate some sort of further test for the panj? Perhaps this is where the very similar Nihang practice comes from? I heard they do some goat beheading thing like this at Hazoor Sahib.

[Bijla Singh]

There is no difference between Guru and Waheguru. Both are the same. Word "Satguru" is used for Waheguru and Guru Sahib in Gurbani. The quote I provided refers to Guru Sahib. If you read the entire Astpaddi it will become clear. Nihungs try to claim origination of Jhatka from 1699 but this has no evidence. Word "Jhatka" doesn't even appear in any Sikh source. Bhai Kahan Singh was the first one to mention this word in Mahan Kosh in 1930 and even that with no reference. Every historian makes a mistake whether it is intentional or unintentional and this is why we need to carefully read, evaluate and accept history that is according to Gurbani.

When Guru Sahib tests a Sikh, He goes all the way. When Bhai Lehna Ji was told to eat a dead body, certainly there was a dead body. When Bhai Manjh Ji was tested, he had to spend all night in a well carrying woods on his head. Test of Guru Sahib is not an easy one. If Bhagat Naamdev Ji could revolve a temple and give life to a dead cow then why can't Guru Ji who is Waheguru Himself? Distorting Sikhi for selfish reasons has become the motive of many people today. Well, I think we have had enough discussion on this.

[dalsingh101]

I was just thinking maybe it may have been Guru Jis way of testing whether someone would be scared to kill in battle. I mean if you can't kill a goat then you wont be able to kill some trained moghul as@hole trying to kill you.

Oh well. I guess we'll never know for sure.

[Bijla Singh]

Sikhs had fought the mughals during Guru Hargobind Sahib's time, Guru Harrai Sahib Ji kept a large army and Sikhs fought couple of battles such as Bhanghani Battle prior to 1699. So beheading goats is a fake story and insult to Guru Sahib and Sikhi. Five Sikhs were beheaded then brought back to life which is the true story accepted by all respected Sikh scholars.

[dalsingh101]

Sikhs had fought the mughals during Guru Hargobind Sahib's time, Guru Harrai Sahib Ji kept a large army and Sikhs fought couple of battles such as Bhanghani Battle prior to 1699. So beheading goats is a fake story and insult to Guru Sahib and Sikhi. Five Sikhs were beheaded then brought back to life which is the true story accepted by all respected Sikh scholars.

Be careful not to project your own beliefs (which you are entitled to have) on all scholars. I don't think they would all agree with you. Fact is no one knows what happened in those tents besides Guru ji and the piaray.

The fact that so many variations exist as to what did happen shows this. Everything, including what you have said is purely conjecture. We will never know. But to blindly follow traditional accounts with no factual evidence is tantamount to blind faith. Either side can argue their case here. Seeing as none of us can know the truth I suggest some sort of accommodation for each others views. Not believing that they were beheaded etc. doesn't in anyway disrespect our Guru, they never said they did this in the first place.

Plus in Guru ji's own writing (Bachitar Natak) they talk about hunting a few times, including what animals they hunted. When I went to Paonta Sahib gurdwara I was told that Guru ji used to use hunting exercises with Sikhs to help them train for war.

Guru Hargobind himself hunted with dogs (Bhai Gurdas vars). So although I'm not convinced about it I don't totally discount that he may have asked for some goats to be decapitated. But again, we will never know for sure what really happened however people are entitled to their beliefs and faith and if you want to believe that he decapitated the piaray and brought them back to life then that is cool. One problem with that sort of thinking is that it goes against contemporary records of how Guru ji passed away - as the result of a stab wound from an Afghan assassin. This is clearly recorded in Sainpati within a few years of his passing. This contradicts the mythological sort of magical interpretation people have of Guru ji's life. Anyway we can argue over this till the cows come home, so LETS not! Lol

What we should do is see if anyone has contacts at the university where MS770 is and see if we can get a photocopy of this short rahit. You know anyone?

[alias]

The following is a translation of the oldest surviving rehat nama.

The rehit is generally thought not to be written to the Bhai Nand Lal who wrote the famous Persian verses about Guru Gobind Singh because of the wide difference in quality of poetry between the two.

The manuscript was discovered at Guru Nanak Dev University in Amritsar by Dr Jeevan Deol who is a Canadian born expert on Sikh Manuscripts (currently based in London). It has been dated to the 1718/1719 AD period which is virtually a decade after Dasmesh Pita's passing.

The translation is by the notorious W H McLeod from Sikhs of the Khalsa.

I have made some notes in brackets (as well as a single footnote) in areas I find interesting. One thing I noted was there was no reference to panj kakkar. Also there seems to be strong emphasis on not slandering others.

Just so you know, I'm no disciplined guy myself, but find Sikh history fascinating. I hope we have some positive discussions from this. There are a few questions I have myself - I hope some of you can help me with these.

Fateh

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1. The footnote in Mcleod’s translation says that Iron is sacred to the Khalsa and must not be shown disrespect. This is problematic because here in the West (at least) it is not unusual for us to walk over bridges or flooring made with iron or even say brake and accelerator pedals in cars. I was informed by family that this covered only karay, sarbloh battay and weapons and not just iron in general which would be beham.

anyone got fotos of the origional or the gurmukhi version of this rehetnama????? or even a steek? or somthing in punjabi?? preferbally the origionall writting???????