Kaurs In Punj Piarey

[EKONAM]

i will NOT discuss bhai gurdass . why- because as much as you beleave in him, our GURU DO-NOT.they did not include any of his vaars or his so called bani in the guru granth, for a reason, because it is fake....i will not discuss his so called bani ..it is very low leveled.

1) the first line is on page 1087 line 14 by guru nanak

2) is in the <banned word filter activated> di vaar ( that should not be to hard to find)

3)this one is on page 967 on the last line.

4) <banned word filter activated> di vaar

5)this one is on page 305 on line 16.

if you care to discuss gurbani ONLY i will too.........other wise stop leading the poor sangth the wrong way. with you bhamun vaad.

the person who wrote this pWc isMG AMimRq jo dyvYN qW ko isr Dr Ck pun lyvY ] pun iml pWco rihq jo BwKY qW ko mn myN idRV kr rwKY

this is exactly what i mean..THIS IS NOT IN THE GURU GRANTH JI. it is NOT GURU MAATH it is a persons mun maath.

amrit is collected inside a persons body with naam abbass(nam japna)

pevoo phool kanda dar is guru maat....because only the five through a ceramony baptise you.....they give you phool NOT amrit.

one line to explane this is in the shabad poota maata ki asees nimk na vissro tum ko har har sada pajo jagdiss ....after you do this then in this shabad you will get AMRIT, and then and only then you will be deathless.,(your body will die but your sole will live ).

[EKONAM]

so if women cant do everything a man can do they reli arent equal are they? if they cant be panj pyaareh but men can surely they are not treated the same as men and seen as didff. and no this isnt a male vs women thing as im a male fighting for women here. and when it says HE in gurbani its bcoz there is so neutral pronouns in english! i cant believe sum of ur guys mentality what can a woman do that a man cant!?

found this great video ...look and listen very carefully.

[TejiKaur]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

well i have blind faith in Sant Ji

so ima keep quiet on this one but/////////////////////////

what about one or five gursikh daughters with high jeeven of mata sahib kaur putting in the patasay ?

is that done anywhere

should it be

i mean maybe it is i havent seen it yet ?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Only five]

No offense taken, at least i provided you with a good laugh . Sure lets make you an admin and why do you keep thinking you are going to get kicked off the forum when i have said i am taking part in this discussion to present my view as a member of the forum. I never claim to know it all, in fact i know the least amount about sikhi but i do know sikhi is very logical and most of the arguments in this topics are not logical.

Just going to ignore this.

What is so wrong about women in panj pyare? Thats the main question not can women be in panj piyares.

It's not Gurmat. And it has been explained. Next step is accepting.

Religious equality = having same access to the guru

= having same rights of naap japna, vand chakhna and kirat karna

Kaurs have the same access to Guru Sahib and same right of Naam japna, vand chakhna and kirat karna.

Muslim women cant goto mosque at the same time men, sikhi gives that right to sikh women.

Everyone regardless of gender in sikhi can practice naam japna, vand chakna and kirat karna

Sikhs both men and women can be amritdhari.

All aspects of sikhi can be practised by both men and women.

What Muslim do, did is irrevelant to what we are speaking here because it is not about religious equality, which includes gender equality.

So how is that not religious equality? You say that religious equality should then apply to gay men, well if they are gay then they are not following the religion because i am yet to see a religion that says homosexuality is ok. Why are we distorting the discussion by bringing this kind of things when the discussion is about gursikh women who have the same qualities as a gursikh man.

What other religions do does not define or change Sikhi practices. Sikhi stands on it's own. Why gays are not to be married before Guru Sahib is because it is not Gurmat. People can do as they wish with their lives, but don't drag Sikhi down to personal logics. I can so easily argue against your point and show how ilogical your point on homosexuality is. But i don't use personal 'logic' or general 'logic' To follow Gurmat is really important. What is so called logical is not always Gurmat. I hope that clears the logical arguement up.

I am not talking about women walking infront of man during lavan (i wouldnt have a problem with that either *shock*), i am talking about women being allowed to take part in fundamental sikh practices.

See you don't have a problem with woman walking infront in Anand Karaj because your not thinking in terms of Gurmat, but personal/general logic. Guru Sahib made it Gurmat that the man walks infront for the complete four Laava and the lar is handed to the woman from the groom by the brides father.

We can't understand everything Guru Sahib did, but if we want to be his Sikh then the first thing we must have is faith in Guru Sahib. Faith is the most important thing.

Remember when Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji's sons would call him crazy and old for telling them do illogical task and they wouldn't do them, but one Sikh never refused Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji. Bhai Lehna ji would always do the task. He didn't use personal/general logic he would get up and follow the Gurmat Guru Nanak Dev ji told him to pracitce. This is a Sikh of the Guru.

Something I forgot to add.

Your religious equality arguement does not pass the test of Truth in the Anand Karaj. Only something that agrees with all of Sikhi's practices is accepted.

Here is Sant ji's video again speaking on this topic

[Balait_da_Sher]

I am quite busy at the moment with work but lt me just tell you about the Anand karaj,

When a sikh couple are doing lavan they are at equal distance from the Guru ji at all times. This is equality, you are looking at woman following man, where as i am seeing them as both couple doing lavan while Guru ji is in the center. There is no other way of achieving this, if we made the couple walk side by side then one of them would be away from the Guru ji. If one was following another then when the couple are doing matha tek to Guru ji then the groom would do matha tek first, then the bride would be allowed.

You can argue like, Guru ji made men singh and women kaur. Guru ji had the time to make women panj after 1699 but didnt. But i can argue that why did Guru ji's not pick up arms until Guru Hargobind Singh jee? Babar was killing people so why did Guru Nanak dev ji not use the sword. Why did we have such a gap to get to miri piri? Why did we not have female Gurus? For me the answer to these question is simple, Guru ji followed the plan laid down by akal purakh to mould sikhi into what it was to become.

If Guru ji never explicitly stated that Kaurs cannot be in panj piyare then how is that Gurmat? That is our mat. If it is not Gurmat then as panth we can decide what is so bad in rehatvan kaurs joining panj piyares. We dont have to look far (Guru Granth sahib jee) to see what our 10 guru jis thought about women.

[sherlsurj]

i didnt get that last message u sent sure it doesnt m,ake sense. your point about the guru is damn right wrong. u can look at the guru and say they were all men!!!the gurus were something else and in mu opinion cant eb compared to a normal man. they weer not a label ( a man) but gurus end off. ur anand karaj point i did not get. but no where in teh guru granth sahib ji does it say a man has to go infront of a woman. so a woman can go 1st if she and heer hubby want. i dnt get u guys how can u say sikhi is all about equality but yet women in thsi instance dnt have the smae rights as men

[raj_karega_khalsa]

i will NOT discuss bhai gurdass . why- because as much as you beleave in him, our GURU DO-NOT.they did not include any of his vaars or his so called bani in the guru granth, for a reason, because it is fake....i will not discuss his so called bani ..it is very low leveled.

I'm not exactly sure how everyone totally overlooked this comment by EKONAM. It is definately against the Panthic Sikh REhat Maryada and Panthic traditions. Bhai Gurdaas Jee has been and always will be a highly respected Sikh Personality.

This post by Bijla Singh will shed some light on the imporance of Bhai Sahib's Vaars.

I find it unfortunate that most Sikhs have still not understood the real purpose behind Vaars. Bhai Gurdas Ji's work is the most authentic and completely in line with Gurbani. In fact, Vaars are not only based on Gurbani but derived from it which is why Guru Sahib never included them in Guru Granth Sahib. Bhai Sahib took many principles of Gurmat and explained them in simpler terms by giving stories, examples, metaphors etc.

Here are some more lines from Vaars and Gurbani which show that Vaars are based on Gurbani. Blue color is Gurbani and black is Vaars.

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਆ ॥

ਆਪੀਨ੍‍ੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਥੰਮ੍ ਖਲੋਆ ॥

ਆਪੇ ਪਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰਾ ਹੋਆ ॥

ਸਭ ਉਮਤਿ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣੀ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥

ਚਾਰੇ ਜੱਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਆ॥

ਆਪੇ ਪੱਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪ ਆਪੇ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰਾ ਹੋਆ॥

ਹੋਰਿਂਓ ਗੰਗ ਵਹਾਈਐ ਦੁਨਿਆਈ ਆਖੈ ਕਿ ਕਿਓਨੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਈਸਰਿ ਜਗਨਾਥਿ ਉਚਹਦੀ ਵੈਣੁ ਵਿਰਿਕਿਓਨੁ ॥

ਉਲਟੀ ਗੰਗ ਵਹਾਈਓਨ ਗੁਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰ ਧਾਰਾ॥

ਪੁਤੀਂ ਕੌਲ ਨ ਪਾਲਿਆ ਮਨ ਖੋਟੇ ਆਕੀ ਨਸਿਆਰਾ॥

ਬਾਝੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਡੁਬਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥2॥

ਬਾਝ ਗੁਰੂ ਡੁੱਬਾ ਜਗ ਸਾਰਾ ॥29॥

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ ਨਾਵੈ ॥

ਕੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤਿਨਾਂ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤੀਂ ਉਠ ਬਹੰਦੇ॥

ਕੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤਿਨਾਂ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵਾਲਾ ਸਰ ਨ੍ਹਾਵੰਦੇ॥

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਹਹੂ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਨ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀ ਆਏ ॥

ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਨਹੁ ਬਾਹਰੇ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀ ਜਗ ਵਿਚ ਆਏ॥

ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਹੈ ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨ੍ਹਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ॥

ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਲੁਣੈ ਮਥੈ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿਆਸੁ ॥

ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਲੁਣੈ ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਉ ਤੇਹੋ ਫਲ ਪਾਈ॥

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਸਤੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਜਗੀ ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਪੂਜਾਚਾਰ ॥

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿ ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਜੁਗਾ ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਬਹਲੀ ਘਾਲਾ॥

This proves that Vaars explain Gurbani meanings and Bhai Sahib could never have written anything that goes against Gurmat.

[Only five]

I am quite busy at the moment with work but lt me just tell you about the Anand karaj,

When a sikh couple are doing lavan they are at equal distance from the Guru ji at all times. This is equality,

That is one part of your religious equality arguement. Second part would be incorporating that woman walks infront for two Laava. Now this is complete religious eqaulity, Singh. Without the second one your religious equality falls miserably to the test of religious equality. Your own arguement doesn't hold on it's own. But since you have to incorporate that into your religious equality, you don' have a choice, then it false the ultimate test of Gurmat because Guru Sahib made it so man is infront for the full four Laava. You can't pick and choose what you want in reliigious equality. You want to claim religious equality then be prepared to get the whole package.

you are looking at woman following man, where as i am seeing them as both couple doing lavan while Guru ji is in the center.

In the first laava they are not a couple, in the second laava they are not a couple in the third laava they are not a couple, only when the fourth laava is COMPLETE, then they become a couple as husband and wife. By your logic, by just a male and female sitting infront of Guru Sahib they become a couple; husband and wife. By your logic then the laava are useless.

There is no other way of achieving this, if we made the couple walk side by side then one of them would be away from the Guru ji. If one was following another then when the couple are doing matha tek to Guru ji then the groom would do matha tek first, then the bride would be allowed.

Your confused by calling them a couple before even the laava happens. Before the laava are complete they are just man and women. After they are complete then they become a couple. One light in two bodies. Both mutha tek at the sametime. Again read about your religious equality bit explained by me in it's true colors. You can't pick and choose what you want out of religious equality.

You can argue like, Guru ji made men singh and women kaur. Guru ji had the time to make women panj after 1699 but didnt. But i can argue that why did Guru ji's not pick up arms until Guru Hargobind Singh jee? Babar was killing people so why did Guru Nanak dev ji not use the sword. Why did we have such a gap to get to miri piri? Why did we not have female Gurus? For me the answer to these question is simple, Guru ji followed the plan laid down by akal purakh to mould sikhi into what it was to become.

Why didn't Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji not pick up weapons because when the time came Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Hargobind Sahib ji carried it out. You answer your own questions, but are unwilling to accept the Gurmat laid down by Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, by giving each gender a separate name. Alot of people have a hard time accepting Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's stand on many pratices. Your right God command is what he makes it. And he made it Gurmat that just men stand for Punj Pyare. Guru Nanak Dev ji in the first form didn't pick up weapons, but in the Sixth form he did. And in the tenth form he finalized the Khalsa Panth and afterwards never had a women in the Punj Pyare. Guru Sahib if wanted would have done it in the time he was in the Tenth form. Guru Sahib would have instructed us woman are allowed. Guru Sahib would have instructed us in the Anand Karaj woman are allowed to walk infront. But NO Guru Sahib already laid down his instruction and did not change them.

If Guru ji never explicitly stated that Kaurs cannot be in panj piyare then how is that Gurmat?

When Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji asked for five heads that's when he asked explicity for both genders to come forward. But only Singhs stood up. Then afterward he implied it by not even once putting a women in for Punj Pyare. Mata Sahib Kaur did not even object to Guru Goind Singh Sahib ji's decision, but yet Sikhs are objecting to a decision made in Anand Karaj and Punj Pyare. Gurmat is following the Guru's way. Manmat is following your or my way.

That is our mat. If it is not Gurmat then as panth we can decide what is so bad in rehatvan kaurs joining panj piyares. We dont have to look far (Guru Granth sahib jee) to see what our 10 guru jis thought about women.

Couple post back I said there is not one shabad that speaks against Punj Pyare being all male this was the clue for you guys to present shabads. And no one did. So if you believe there is then present them and we can discuss.

[Only five]

i didnt get that last message u sent sure it doesnt m,ake sense. your point about the guru is damn right wrong. u can look at the guru and say they were all men!!!the gurus were something else and in mu opinion cant eb compared to a normal man. they weer not a label ( a man) but gurus end off. ur anand karaj point i did not get. but no where in teh guru granth sahib ji does it say a man has to go infront of a woman. so a woman can go 1st if she and heer hubby want. i dnt get u guys how can u say sikhi is all about equality but yet women in thsi instance dnt have the smae rights as men

I explained it many times, but look to the one above this one I explain it again. Yes Guru Sahib were not just men, they were Guru Sahib, the True Guru. But we can't ignore they took the form as Men.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it is explained, listen to Sant ji's video he explains why man is infront. Also the Khalsa Panth will carry this on because that is what Guru Sahib did and Sikh will not change it. The Khalsa Panth plays a really important part in Sikhi. With out the Khalsa Panth Sikhi is no more. I explained this in another thread. Sikhi is held at Gurmat because of the Khalsa Panth.

So many are out to destroy Gurmat and the way they are doing this is by attacking the Khalsa. The khalsa carries Gurmat on and teaches others about Gurmat. Khalsa is the protector of Gurmat. Punj Pyare just don't bless us with Amrit they teach us Gurmat.

The day the Khalsa is broken into bits, then all you have to do is, sit back and watch the Gurmat be changed to Manmat. You'll have chairs in Darbar Sahib. Shoes in Darbar Sahib. People will not cover their heads. People will start clapping dancing in Darbar Sahib. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji will be just regarded as a book.

There are many consequence in the way those who place woman in Punj Pyare are headed. Have you seen the video where the 3HO are dancing to Waheguru. Waheguru is to calm the soul and let the mind dance with repeating Waheguru, but yet they went Manmat and started dancing their body to Waheguru with a tune playing in the background. What will you say to them when they start dancing to Shabad Kirtan.

[sherlsurj]

can sum1 tell me where it says in guru granth sahib that a man has to go b4 a woman during lava ?