Kaurs In Punj Piarey

[Tarrandeep Kaur]

Here's a view from both sides:

Punj Pyaare should include women.

Think about this: Only 5 people from specific castes stood up as well. Does that mean Panj Pyare can only be khatri, jatt, water carrier, clothes washer, or barber?

What about a Chumar (shoe maker) or Tarkhan? Can they not be in the Panj Pyare then? What about gorae Sikhs, some white person may have been there, and there definitely were those of Muslim descent, can they not be Panj Pyare either?

If women be in Panj Pyare then it becomes Panj Pyareean.

Is it not practice to call gursikhs in the "they" form. such as Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindra Valae, not Bhindra Vala.. same for singhnee not valee but valae... thus it would still be punj pyarae.

Also, If women are in the Khalsa, why aren't they called Khalsee? We are all Khalsa, regardless of gender.

Women (men in this world, we all have female souls according to bani) are already in Panj Pyare. So what is the problem? All are women and women are in panj pyare. So nothing should change. Right?

Right, nothing should change, women are already in panj pyare and have been for hundreds of years, and will continue to be, whether they are women in human form or not. What needs to change is peoples attitudes.

You dont get it, after amrit our caste goes. you no longer belong to a caste, u belong to mahraj, ones gender doesnt go.

form is important. its not about keeping tradition. the gurus were all male, the panj piayre were male.

when we see panj piayre we see them as bhai deya singh, bhai mokham singh, bhai himmat singh.....etc.

how can one do that if a bibi is in the panj piayre.

end of the day its useless debating, becuase none of us have the kamai to be doing such seva anyway. so we should concentrate on our own kamai.

no point in debating further, both sides have had their say.

gurfateh jee

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

Personally, I think the purpose of Khalsa, Khanda Ka Amrit, Warriors and The pratan order of Chivalry have all now changed, and not for the better.

Is it equality to send women to war in par with men? Me no think so.

[AK-47]

Please answer the point on what you define as equality? Is it physical or spiritual, a mixture of both?

If guru ji has blessed both genders with absolute equality, then why are men still discriminated against in that they cant give birth to children? Very simple question. Why did god and guru sahib choose to discriminate against men in this way. on the other hand, why has god discriminated agaisnt women by making them the right to give birth, why do they have to carry that burden, why cant men suffer the pain (and pleasure) of childbirth? why has the guru discriminated on this point?

and people either stop using sant jarnail singh ji's name in ur arguments or accept his viewpoint. you cant refer to him and then say u think it is ok for women to do this seva.

i agree attitudes do need to change. this attitude of 'we are right and all these stupid punjabis didnt have a clue'. kids born and bred in the west trying to change sikhi to suit their western and new type of thinking. we have people saying that sants like sant jarnail singh need to change their attitude!!!

regarding the status of women in the darbar of the guru. people will change this status to suit their means. people will say guru amar das ji liberated women by creating women preachers and sent them around india to do parchar. think about this, how big a step would this be? women sent to do parchar in the furtherst parts of the lands. ... so why is it that 7 gurus later we think the staus of women has somehow dropped again so much that they would not turn up to anandpur sahib?? or that due to their social status they were 'afraid' to stand up!!

point is either the 9 gurus liberated women and gave them the strength and conviction to live as sikhs ... and that these women lived at the time of guru gobind singh ji. or ... the 10 gurus failed to motivate women and these chardikala kaurs only came into existence post 1950's. which will it be?

fact is guru maharajh in his physical form is represented by 5 other male forms. for people who say guru ji had no gender ... wake up! guru ji took on the male gender! to say he had to do that due to society is rubbish! is guru nanak dev ji broke hundreds of societies conceptions then are you saying that he was too afraid to choose a female guru?? guru maharajh did what he did becuase he wanted to. if this doesnt please hippy sikhs in the west then tough.

people know in an effort to please the 'western school of equality' are messing around with some of the most fundamental and basics of sikhi.

maryada says panj must be full limbed. i repeat, do females have the same limbs/organs as a man? before some of the very confused people start talking about they are women inside as well as men, answer is NO.

and for the people who say ... what if there wasnt 5 chardi kala singhs to do the amrit sanchar wouldt u let a woman do it instead ... ermm sorry which planet are you living on? how many times are you likely to come across a scenario when someone needs to take amrit and there are not 5 singhs there? if they are not there, people can TRAVEL yes... u know cars, trains, planes .... if you want armit then make an effort! singh inside prisons have managed to get 5 singh to come in and give them amrit, so if they can do that im sure the rest of us can make the effort to get to an amrit sanchar if we need to! evenif you have to save money for the ticket etc etc this is worth it! amrit is not about convinence, that ohh there is only 4 singhs here, lets cut a corner and let a bibi fill the last space!!

those of you who think it is wrong for only 5 singhs to do the seva will carry on regardless, and this is in your own karam. those of us who think that the chaldi hoi maryada is correct and 5 singhs represent the physical roop of guru gobind singh ji maharajh will carry on with that parcahr.

all i will say is, i can definetly wait for the day wen amrit is given by a mixture of genders, male, female (cross genders - cus they are equal too aint they?), someone sitting in a wheelchair mixing th amrit, someone with only one hand, the bania read in english translations, women told to remove their salwars (just like men have to remove their trousres) etc etc alllll in the name of equality. ....

[THUPAC]

Please answer the point on what you define as equality? Is it physical or spiritual, a mixture of both?

If guru ji has blessed both genders with absolute equality, then why are men still discriminated against in that they cant give birth to children? ..........................sitting in a wheelchair mixing th amrit, someone with only one hand, the bania read in english translations, women told to remove their salwars (just like men have to remove their trousres) etc etc alllll in the name of equality. ....

:WW:

I beleive that the day when i man can give birth is the day that a bibi can be in the panj

bhul chuk maaf

[Tarrandeep Kaur]

woah 1st time i agree with AK-47

:WW:

[AK-47]

Tarrandeep Kaur Posted Today, 05:16 AM

woah 1st time i agree with AK-47

neehhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

lol

glad to see we can agree on some things little sister :wub:

end of the day its useless debating, becuase none of us have the kamai to be doing such seva anyway. so we should concentrate on our own kamai.

no point in debating further, both sides have had their say.

i also totally agree with your point here as well .... i know twice in one day!!!! shocking!! lol

i reckon the people who actually do the seva hardly get into these debates, they just do what they gota do :nihungsmile:

[Mehtab Singh]

end of the day its useless debating, becuase none of us have the kamai to be doing such seva anyway. so we should concentrate on our own kamai.

no point in debating further, both sides have had their say.

Thats it! End of discussion!

[B4ND4]

Okay end this one but when is the sequel coming out? :wub:

[Guest Akirtghan]

i think this one of the VERY VERY few threads on SS that have reached some sort of a conclusion :wub: :nihungsmile:

[B4ND4]

^^hahaha..aajo..ajjo..

ps: so did we reach a conclusion in this one? I didnt have internet so havent read it yet.