Learn How To Play The Vaja

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

hmm ok, lets do kirtan to bagpipes ))))

KIrtan is primarily about praising our beloved SatGuru Ji. All of the Kirtan should be centered on the True GurShabd. The playing of the instruments is only the mechanical aspect of Kirtan. Again Kirtan is about doing Keerat ( praise ) of our True Satguru Ji. But then again I dont think these NaamDharis at Raj Academy will teach you to do satkar on the True Guru, if anything they are going to give you doubts about the Gurshabad and try to make kirtan a whole ritualistic exercise.

THe point of kirtan is to get so intune of the True SatgUru Ji that we stop the instruments and vibrate on the Anahat Shabad carelessly- Sat Sat SaTGuru Ji. As Gurmat Yogis tHe instrument is our cave while the GurShabad is the point of focus.

If you have learned a classical instrument that is great. You should learn more and more and teach others. But I dont think its so wise to undermine kirtan by assuming that certain instruments need to be played. Kirtan is God and God is not dependent on any worldly instruments.

[chatanga]

The parnali of Gurmat sangeet rests on 3 principals - shabad, saaj and raag. people, sukhdeep, singhstah, think about anything our gurus did or any bakhshish they gave us. was there any point in Guru Nanaks life where he did something useless? This Guru Nanak gave us a Rabab. Why? He could have used any instrument in vogue at the time. Please stop posting turds on here you two, about saaj and raag not being important. They are very important. So important that Guru Ji classified Aad Guru to raags. Why? Guru Ji could have just written them in any order.

See if this will help you.

In our local gurdwara, there are 2 sections in the langar hall. One where sangat sits on the floor in pangat and partakes of langar. The other where sangat sit on tables and chairs. However is the langar that the sangat is eating different? No. But which traditon did our Guru start? Sitting on the floor as a sign of humility, as slaves in our masters house, or on tables and chairs as a sign of sovereignty?

They are eating it differently but eating the same food that our Guru has provided. If you ask people who sit on chairs they say there is nothing wrong with it. But is it the tradition of our Guru? No. Eating langar is not just about eating food. There is a spirituality and reasoning behind it.

This is the same with kirtan. Just becos it is hard work doing it the way Guru taught us, it doesn't mean that we can cut corners and post drivel on websites to make ourselves look clever like you two are doing, and make Guru out to look like he gave us a teaching that became worthless in 300 or so years. Guru's teachings are eternal.

Its a shame how you insult your Guru's pyaar and effort. And sukhdeepppp, the namdharis may not believe in Aad Granth as Guru but they beleive in Guru Nanak as their Guru. They has preserved the Rabab of Guru ji, for all their faults whereas you have just insulted Guru's Rabab by questioning the necessity of it. Why couldnt you have been born in nirankari radha swami family or something?

[Papi]

you simply can't ignore gurmat sangeet and the fact that raags are used in the composition of Ilaahi Gurbaani.

But if you don't know raag and such, you're left to the choices of "don't do keertan at all" or "do it without the blessing of the raag in which it was originally composed"... certainly you should choose the latter

that doesn't mean it's a free pass to ignore what the original method was. It means for now... start trying to learn it, but in the interim, do what you need to do.

Well said

If Gurbani Santhya is imperative then why is Kirtan Santhya not? If there is only one way to read Gurbani, then how can there be multiple ways to do kirtan of that very Gurbani? As it has been mentioned already, Dhan Satguru Sahib Shri Guru Arjan Sahib Jee, in their infinite wisdom have organized our Shabad Guru based on Raags, then there has to be some importance there! Every single thing Guru Sahib did and spoke had a HUGE message behind it. We can't just choose to ignore it just because WE THINK it's only the bani that is important....It is reasoning like this that is the root cause of us loosing traditional Sikh gems such as shaster vidya, let's not add Gurmat Raag to the list.

I should also add that as per Bhai Avtaar Singh Jee, there is a difference between Gurmat Raags and Indian Classical Raags.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

The parnali of Gurmat sangeet rests on 3 principals - shabad, saaj and raag. people, sukhdeep, singhstah, think about anything our gurus did or any bakhshish they gave us. was there any point in Guru Nanaks life where he did something useless? This Guru Nanak gave us a Rabab. Why? He could have used any instrument in vogue at the time. Please stop posting turds on here you two, about saaj and raag not being important. They are very important. So important that Guru Ji classified Aad Guru to raags. Why? Guru Ji could have just written them in any order.

See if this will help you.

In our local gurdwara, there are 2 sections in the langar hall. One where sangat sits on the floor in pangat and partakes of langar. The other where sangat sit on tables and chairs. However is the langar that the sangat is eating different? No. But which traditon did our Guru start? Sitting on the floor as a sign of humility, as slaves in our masters house, or on tables and chairs as a sign of sovereignty?

They are eating it differently but eating the same food that our Guru has provided. If you ask people who sit on chairs they say there is nothing wrong with it. But is it the tradition of our Guru? No. Eating langar is not just about eating food. There is a spirituality and reasoning behind it.

This is the same with kirtan. Just becos it is hard work doing it the way Guru taught us, it doesn't mean that we can cut corners and post drivel on websites to make ourselves look clever like you two are doing, and make Guru out to look like he gave us a teaching that became worthless in 300 or so years. Guru's teachings are eternal.

Its a shame how you insult your Guru's pyaar and effort. And sukhdeepppp, the namdharis may not believe in Aad Granth as Guru but they beleive in Guru Nanak as their Guru. They has preserved the Rabab of Guru ji, for all their faults whereas you have just insulted Guru's Rabab by questioning the necessity of it. Why couldnt you have been born in nirankari radha swami family or something?

Why are you referring it to as Gurus Rabab. The Rabab existed before Guru Jis time. You are trying to give the Rabab some kind of sacred status by associating it as Gurus Rabab. Guru gave us method to experience GuruShabad and this is what all spiritual seekers want to experience. IF you want to ritualize your experience by being infatuated by the wordly sounds of the physical senses instead of the spiritual sounds within which is the true hard work then thats your choice. A person can do kirtan with any instrument they want. Lets not forget Kirtan is about Keerat its not about music or sounding nice. The ears need to be focused on the True GurShabad. The instruments are just there as a tool to stir more emotions for Kirtan.

In regard to Langar Maryada. This is about Dharmic Principle. Which is all are equal , we all sit in humility,and enjoy Guru Ka Langar. What Dharmic Principle does classical kirtan have? Im not saying Classical Kirtan is a bad thing. It is a good thing if it gets you closer to the True Gurshabad, but its not mandatory for you to have a spiritual experience. The only thing mandatory in kirtan is sincere devotion.

The origianl poster posted a very good and sincere post about learning Kirtan. Kirtan is part of a Gursikhs rehat which should be either listenend to or sung everyday. Its the food of our soul and its the Highest in this age of Kaljug. By enjoying/eating the ras from Kirtan all our wordly pleasures are destroyed and then we get anand. For the original poster I would suggest you to hang around with people who truly enjoy Kirtan, and ask someone to teach you how to play the vaja,Rabab, or any instrument which you like.

guir suB idRsit sB aUpir krI ]

gur subh dhrisatt sabh oopar karee ||

The Guru has bestowed His Glance of Grace upon all,

ijs kY ihrdY mMqRü dy hrI ]

jis kai hiradhai ma(n)thra dhae haree ||

within whose hearts the Lord has implanted His Mantra.

AKMf kIrqnu iqin Bojnu cUrw ]

akha(n)dd keerathan thin bhojan chooraa ||

The unbroken Kirtan of the Lord's Praises is their food and nourishment.

khu nwnk ijsu siqguru pUrw ]8]2]

kahu naanak jis sathigur pooraa ||8||2||

Says Nanak, they have the Perfect True Guru. ||8||2||

[chatanga]

Why are you referring it to as Gurus Rabab. The Rabab existed before Guru Jis time. You are trying to give the Rabab some kind of sacred status by associating it as Gurus Rabab.

Because this rabab is differerent from the Afghan/Persian Rabab.

Guru gave us method to experience GuruShabad and this is what all spiritual seekers want to experience. IF you want to ritualize your experience by being infatuated by the wordly sounds of the physical senses instead of the spiritual sounds within which is the true hard work then thats your choice.

There is your difference with Guru. Guru Ji does not not this principle to Kirtan.

A person can do kirtan with any instrument they want. Lets not forget Kirtan is about Keerat its not about music or sounding nice. The ears need to be focused on the True GurShabad. The instruments are just there as a tool to stir more emotions for Kirtan.

Tru a person can do kirtan with any instrment, but not Gurmat Sangeet which is what the Guru's started. Why would Guru's give us 5 instruments if there was no neccessity in even 1 of them?

In regard to Langar Maryada. This is about Dharmic Principle. Which is all are equal , we all sit in humility,and enjoy Guru Ka Langar. What Dharmic Principle does classical kirtan have? Im not saying Classical Kirtan is a bad thing. It is a good thing if it gets you closer to the True Gurshabad, but its not mandatory for you to have a spiritual experience. The only thing mandatory in kirtan is sincere devotion.

there is no such thing as classical or modern kirtan. there is only Guru's kirtan. The system of kirtan that is perfect. Which they made perfect themselves. Gurmat Sangeet in itself in Dharmic principle.

I ask you this question directly Sukhdeepp as you seemed to ignore it from my earlier post. Did the Guru's ever give any teachings or set any examples that were worthless, or or indeed not worth hanging onto after 300 or so years

And the original poster,I would recommend that you play an instrument that is BAKHSHISH of our Guru's, rather than one which european gypsies used to beg with.

[Khaalis]

"But then again I dont think these NaamDharis at Raj Academy will teach you to do satkar on the True Guru, if anything they are going to give you doubts about the Gurshabad and try to make kirtan a whole ritualistic exercise."

Don't be such a Talibans poosh. Naamdhari give more satkaar to Gurus Bani than you will ever know - even if they don't treat Aad Guru as living Guru, they still give it and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib the highest satkaar in terms of being Gurus unchanged words. Their adherance to preservation of Gurus kirtan maryada as per Aad Guru speaks volumes in itself regarding who has satkaar for Gurus bani. The core of their faith being naam simran also speaks volumes about their faith in Aad Guru.

Chatanga, Eastern European Gypsies have an extremley rich folk music culture, which has roots in Lok Sangeet, they use the side bellowing Vaaja o this day, not because it is a great saaj, but because it can be bought for peanuts, richer gypies can step up in class and use the violin. The reason saaj don't play a big part in Gypsy folk, is that their musical tradition is largely a sina basina oral one.

Guru Nanak Dev ji requested Bhai Firanda to make the 'Sikh' rabab himself so that it perfectly complimented his style of kirtan and the raags that would be used. The Sikh rabab is unique in design, different from all other versions in sound and shape i.e. Afghani Rabab etc.

Same goes for the Jori, Saranda, Taus and Dilruba - Guru designed saaj (Dilruba being designed based on the Taus by Khalsa and Gurus agyaa). For us to replace Gurus saaj with our saaj is to replace Gurus mat with our mat. There is no point giving examples of so and so used vaaja, others actions shouldn't concern us, only our actions should concern us. As I said before - as people today preserve Gurus Baana, Gurus Shastar Vidya, Gurus Gurdwarai designs, Gurus maryada in various ways - so should we preserve Gurus kirtan in its entiretly - living in a resource rich western society - we have no excuse that we don't have time or wealth to pursue and preserve Gurus kirtan.

It always makes me laugh how people have the money and time to splash out on 50" TV and watch crap programmes/films, but mention the price of a Taus and commitment required to learn it and they have an heart attack.

The reason the Vaaja is so popular is because we live in a convenience culture - Gurus culture was not one of convenience, but one of devotion.