Old Soldiers

[Akaali]

Veerjeeo,

There have been some very rough times in our history, our guru sahebaans preached gursikhee during the time of the mughal invasion and oppression, gursikhs fought through these rough times adjusting to eating leaves and grass, surviving on days without food and water and not to mention living under a constant threat of attack.

They had to live gursikhee according to these times. You hear/read stories that during wartimes, they use to put maharaaj's saroop on top of trees so that they can fight the enemy and they failed to live through that fight, there would be no be-adbee done to guru saaheb, was that wrong? Ofcourse not. Times of today are different, we are not living in an oppressed country or with foreign invaders, we don't have enemies we have to fight besides the 5 vikaar.

My point is according to times and situations they had to adapt and try to keep as much satkaar as they could because guru saaheb's satkaar was of utmost importance

Praatan gursikhs would always be haazar naazar to their guru always up for any sevaa they could get because they KNEW...

sathagur kee saevaa gaakharree sir dheejai aap gavaae ||

It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.

There are many shabds in gurbanee in terms of gur sevaa.

Sevaa is a concept only a handful of people understand and practice, some gursikhs spend their lifetimes doing sevaa from day to night, its everything for them. Many gursikhs leave their families to do sevaa at langar or of guru saaheb to seek the blessings of guru saaheb.

Let me ask you, who is your guru? If it is Sree Guru Granth Saaheb jee then wouldn't you feel obliged to show as much satkaar to your guru as if gurujee was a living person? It comes down to how much shardhaa and pyaar you have for gurbaanee and if you really see gurbaanee as high and AS the word of god that you would do all you can in your power to do maharaaj's satkaar, the most important satkaar of guru saaheb is to understand and analyze gurshabd.

The palki thing is almost definitely a new innovation though.

PLEASE PLEASE backup or reference what you say, because if you don't then you're misleading sangat with your views and thats a paap in itself.

Here's a photo of the wooden paalkee in which the original pothis were carried from Goindvaal to Amritsar by Guru Arjan Saaheb. The paalkee is now at Goindvaal Saaheb.

Bhul chuk muaaf karnee.

[dalsingh101]

Firstly please don't make this (or any other) discussion by me into one that is one designed to "mislead" the sangat. Think of this as vichaar. I come here with an open mind and discussing stuff, in my opinion, is a great way to share information. I for one don't expect everyone to share my opinions and in the same way we shouldn't characterise people who don't share our opinions as "paapis" or any opinions that differ from ours as "beadbi"

Anyway. Look at the paintings below. They were painted in the heyday of Sikh affluence, so money was no issue. I don't see a palki but quite simple settings for maharaj. I also stuck a picture a miniature granth.

[Matheen]

Dalsingh wrote:"Anyway. Look at the paintings below. They were painted in the heyday of Sikh affluence, so money was no issue. I don't see a palki but quite simple settings for maharaj. I also stuck a picture a miniature granth.

Dalsingh, the 'simple' settings inside Harmandir Sahib are actually quite elaborate. The chandoas from that time were hugely expensive (made with gold thread and adorned with jewels) and were preserved in the toshakhanna until 1984, when they got damaged - i think 1 still remains and is sometimes used on big occassions. The design of Harmandir Sahib means a palki isn't needed.

As for the outdoor painting, who knows what's going on? Besides, paintings weren't always accurate - have a look at Freed's post at www.sikhawareness.com with paintings depicting the British governer with a halo around his head and devtey saluting him.

As veer ji has shown with the photo of a palki from Guru Arjan Dev Ji's time - it's not a new invention. Also, don't forget how much respect Guru Arjan Dev Ji gave to the Pothi Sahib and what they went through to get all the Bani back to the Sangat.

[Freed]

Gurfateh !

The simple answer here is that traditionally a 'Palki' is for transporting Guru Sahib respectfully from one place to another.

A full size Manja (Bed) is used for Sukhasan - and for Prakash Guru Sahib is 'Braajmaan' placed on a Manji Sahib - small low cot/bed. This is still maintained at Darbar Sahib.

There is no 'Hindu' / ritualistic / or other kind of reason - it is plain Darbari Rasm / Royal custom that is universal to all Royalty - If you look at the Queen of England - She arrives in a Golden Coach - (Palki) - Her arrival is heralded by Trumpets (Narsingha) - She sits on a throne (Manji) with attendants always present (Chaur Sahib and Granthi)

All her subjects bow to her and no one turns their back on her (Matha Tek - Dandot) - they walk backwards to show respect. Above her head there is a Baldaquin - a rich canopy (Chandoa).

There are set times for audience - outside of these times she retires to her private quarters, where she may give private audience. (This is like Prakash - Prakash in the Sheesh Mahal -and then Sukhasan)

The Darbar of Guru Sahib is a Royal Darbar therefore you have the markers of Royalty - The Nagara- royal drum, The Narsingha - Royal Trumpet . Royal Musicians - Raagis.

Even the Architecture of Darbar Sahib is Royal, akin to a Palace - with an area for Public audience , for private audience (Sheesh mahal and the upper floor Pavilion) and a place to retire (Kotha Sahib).

It's all about respect and Royal Protocol - the level of 'display' depends on the situation - for example when the Queen goes hunting - protocol is still maintained but at a less formal level - So there is no Canopy etc - but at a formal occasion like the State opening of Parliament there is full protocol and all traditions are maintained - Trumpets, coaches, regalia and crowns.

THe queen is welcomed and seated on a throne higher than everyone else and everyone faces her and no one especially 'Black Rod' turns their back on her - and No one leaves until she has finished her speech, no one leaves before she leaves - the same as Hukumnama and Sukhasan).

All this is true of Guru Sahib, the level of Darbari Rasm is dependent on the situation but bare minimum is 'Carried on Head with Romallay and Chaur Sahib'.

Guru Sahib is the King of Kings and Darbar Sahib is their Darbar - in no way am I saying the Queen is on the same level as Guru Sahib - I am just giving the reason for the 'Darbari Rasm'.

A Sikh bows their head only to Guru Sahib and a Sikh only recognises the Darbar of Guru Sahib.

Freed

[dalsingh101]

Thank you for your explanation Freed.

Does anyone know if putting Guru ji on a manji after hours was done in the past?

[Jai Tegang!]

Thank you for your explanation Freed.

Does anyone know if putting Guru ji on a manji after hours was done in the past?

Traditional sakhis state that Guru Arjan Dev ji stopped sleeping on his Manja Sahib after the Parkash of First Bir of Guru Granth Sahib ji (then known as Pothi Sahib). Guru Arjan Dev ji would sleep on the floor while the Pothi Sahib was in Sukhasan on the Manja sahib (full sized bed, not small manji).

Even today in Kotha Sahib they place a white sheet on the place where Guru Arjan Dev ji used to sleep.

Guru Granth Sahib ( and "Pothi Sahib" as known before Gur-gadhi) were given utmost respect. Not long ago Guru Granth sahib used to be taken on elephant-back with full splendor.

But when times were tough Singhs had to guard the sanctity of Guru Granth Sahib with their life, they would even place the Saroop in a blanket and tie it to their backs.