Applying The Word "sh"

[Guest Guest]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

I have noticed that some Paatth teachers tell us to apply the word "sh" in Gurbani. For example: Ishnaan, Darshan, Shabad, Paatshah and Akaash etc. But some don't apply the word because it isn't used in Gurbani. Or is the word "sh" GUPT? So i am confused on this.

[Guest Guest]

There is no Bindi used under letters that would give the "SH" or "Z" sounds. Some schools of thought of pronounciation say that the words should be pronounced as Isnaan, Darsan, Paatsah, and Akaas, exactly how they are written. Other schools of thought say that the words should be pronounced as Ishnaan, Darshan, etc, as the correct pronounciation is implicit.

[Guest sh]

I have noticed that some Paatth teachers tell us to apply the word "sh" in Gurbani. For example: Ishnaan, Darshan, Shabad, Paatshah and Akaash etc. But some don't apply the word because it isn't used in Gurbani. Or is the word "sh" GUPT? So i am confused on this.

yeh, a lot of people are mate.

[Guest DDT]

There is NO sh in bani. There are no "Pare vale Bindia" in Guru Granth Sahib Jee!

Sh Kh Gh Za Fa came after Guru's Times during British raj so that panjabi could be adapted to english. In Gurbani there is NO "pare bindia akharaa" and SHOULD NO BE READ.

alot of ppl read it but this is wrong.

akaas, darsun,sabd,paatsaah,isnaan etc etc are the correct way to read. Best for you to learn from Taksaal.

Check out www.GurmatVeechar.com for Shudh Gurbani Uchaarnaa!

[raj_karega_khalsa]

lol at _DDT_...just blame the British for everything ahah

but seriously, back in the day bindis were not written but everyone had common sense and used them...for example, our 8th Guroo Sahib's name is Sri Guroo HarkriSHan Sahib Jee; now when writing it, in baanee such as Ardaas, it willl be written HarkriSan...but we all know our Guroo's name and say 'Sri HarkriSHan dhiaaeeai...'

I used to also try to read BaaNee EXACTLY how it's written, but after reading it with proper usage of bindian, it makes a BIG difference...

[Guest DDT]

lol at _DDT_...just blame the British for everything ahah

but seriously, back in the day bindis were not written but everyone had common sense and used them...for example, our 8th Guroo Sahib's name is Sri Guroo HarkriSHan Sahib Jee; now when writing it, in baanee such as Ardaas, it willl be written HarkriSan...but we all know our Guroo's name and say 'Sri HarkriSHan dhiaaeeai...'

er..no actually. its Guroo Harkrisan Sahib Jee. There is no SH. See Dasam Granth Sahib n Read Chandi Dee Vaar, 1st Pauree (which is begining of ardaas) and you will see there is no SH. Obviously nowadays its all printed with Bindia etc but Have a Look at Puraatan Suroops and Taksal Gutke & u till find no SH's.

I used to also try to read BaaNee EXACTLY how it's written, but after reading it with proper usage of bindian, it makes a BIG difference...

Baanee NEEDS to be Read how its written. It makes a big difference 2u coz its not shud LOL!

[AK-47]

this is why you need santhia from a teacher/ustad. People may learn different due to ustad's teaching them in that way, but if you come before maharajh and you've been reading it wrong, you can reply

that you read it the way your ustad taught you and you had sharda/faith in that teaching.

If the ustad teaches you wrong, then its on his head, not yours.

But IF you have not had any santhia and you use your own manmat and decide to add or take away gurbani with your own will then you will suffer the consequences first hand.

This is why it is essential to learn gurbani from one of the taksals who were made for this very purpose. To brush something off as 'it was common sense' is a manmat phrase, as guru sahib clearly says again and again and again in gurbani that we have 'no sense' that our minds are full of rubbish and that it is our mind that leads us off the gurus path. So to have faith in this 'common sense' over the written word of gurbani, is not a smart idea.

Singhs in the taksals have spent their entire lives dedicated to the study of gurbani, the abhiyaas of gurbani, searching for and checking gurbani against purataan granths and pothis, done veechar of gurbani, checked the arths of the shabads, checked the grammer of the shabads, worked on the visraams to make sure that the correct pause is made at the correct place to ensure the correct meaning is given etc etc etc. And this has been repeated by hundreds of singhs generation after generation after generation. I would think that someone who has spent their life dedicated to the above would be better placed to comment on things such as prouniciation and grammer then a bunch of kids on the internet.

There might still be differences, but these will be much much less then if you didnt learn from an ustad. End of the day not all of you will agree to this and that is your choice. But just try learning gurbani properly and you will notice the difference. Well actually if you go in with the wrong attitude (i am right and i will prove this guy wrong) you still wont notice the difference.

While this may sound harsh, it might also be an idea of checking where your ustad learnt his santhia from. Some guys are just normal punjabi guys who can read punjabi and have taken a job as a granthi and now have decided to teach santhia. To learn properly you need to check where they learnt it from. Being able to read punjabi is not the same as being able to read gurbani!!

Each to his own, just be ready to bear the brunt of reading gurbani incorrectly and dealing with consequences yourself, especially as most of us have the opportunity to learn santhia, but choose not to. Not much excuse really. But as long as we are reading gurbani, that the first step.

End of lecture.

ps my ustad (from damdami taksal whose ustad was a student of sant gurbachan singh ji .. who was a student of sant sundar singh ji ... etc etc) does not put bindis in Guru Granth Sahib ji, neither do the other taksal ustads (from my understanding). there are bindis during the times of the gurus, as guru gobind singh ji has used them many times in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji, especially in the zafarnama which due to the language the bindis must be used. Other rules exist, but im not an ustad, you'll need to find one to learn properly.

Goodluck!

[Akaali]

Don't look at if they should be put or not, look at the fact if you understand the tuk or not.

Some taksaal videyaarthee pronounce gurbaaNee with alot of emphasis on the sihaareeaa and visraams, no doubt they are important but when they recite a certain tuk with that emphasis it comes out distorted and half of the time they don't even know what it means, but are too concentrated on how it SHOULD sound.

GurbaaNee is composed of several different languages and its your job to analyze its meaning, pronunciation in a way that is clear to understand for you and by others, say you were assigned raul for an akhand paath saaheb, and sangat was sitting who hasn't taken santhyaa from taksaal or santhyaa, period, they wouldn't be able to make out what the pathee is saying. GurbaaNee was written for the common man to understand and interpret, so that they can take something from it, sure there are sehskriti saloks that are hard to understand, but those require time and commitment.

For example, if someone says the word shah with a bindi it means exalted, high, etc. but if you say sah it means breath, so proper santhyaa is needed but you have to have the ability to analyze it yourself and see what makes most sense to you and if you understand the tuk or just reading it because you've been told its how you should read it.

Bhul chuk muaf karnee.

[RKang17]

SUMTIMES PPL. HAVE A CERTAIN ACCENT WHEN THEY TALK SO MABEY UR TEACHER JUS SAYS "SH". TO B HONEST I HAV NO IDEA I WOULD LIKE TO NO MYSELF.

[AK-47]

talikhaak, while i appreciate your comments are well intentioned, i fear that they are part of a current trend of dumbing down sikhi for us masses. Gurbani is the kings language - the word of guru granth sahib ji and as such is the most holy and important language. If you look at english, the purest form may be said to the 'the queens english' where each word is prounciated correctly, the pauses are correct, the empahasis is correct etc. While most of may speak and understand slang, you would not hear this type of slang used in the royal courts. nor do you hear it on public announcements from the government etc.

Speakers representing the governments and the monarchy are taught to speak 'properly'. So why should gurbani be any different? If the sangat does not understand what guru sahib has written does not mean we should change the shabad to suit them. If the sangat is truely sangat then they will make the effort to learn, listen to katha, have santhia etc. There is no way that gurbani should be read in any other way other then correctly in guru sahibs darbar. If we were to go down this path then soon we would just be reading out the english translations and be done with the gurbani altogether!!

By having santhia it helps you to understand what guru ji is saying, its much easier to understand gurbani once you can read it properly. And if singhs are putting toooo much emphasis on the laga-matar then that is also not correct. Its all about learning until you get it right. But benti is please dont take short cuts when it comes to gurbani just to suit ourselves. we have to put the hard work in if we want the rass from gurbani.

We all do ardas at the end of reading gurbani anyway to ask for forgiveness for any mistakes we made, so as long as ardas is honest, we should be ok!