Applying The Word "sh"

[OhTwadi]

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[Singh132]

It's not that complicated. You learn the rules and you apply them. It's not memorizing every single occurrence of a bindi. You learn which words have a bindi and every time, you put one there. It's not that complicated at all.

[OhTwadi]

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[khalistan_zindabaad]

Let's take one example. The title of Zafarnamah is written, if read exactly "Jaffernameh". No one pronounces it like this. The Bindis in the feet of akhars were read in automatically just like for example the letter 'c' in English can be pronounced hard like "Car" or soft like "Cease". The letter is the same but sounds are two.

In the same way, akhars like Sussa has "sh" and "s" sounds. Jujja has "zzz" and "jjjj" sounds. The reader needs to add it in where it is needed.

Going back to the original example of "Jaffernameh", because we know that this is a Farsi word, the Jujja is pronounced "Z" and the "haha" at the end is pronounced like a kunna. We see that in Gurbani also in words like "Dargah" and "Panah" and "Allah". People that don't know these rules are actually reading Gurbani a-shudh (funny how you can't say "shudh" without a bindi in the feet). You hear people saying "Alleh" instead of Allah, etc.

I'm a little concerned to see where Gurbani uchaaran is going these days though. The mentality that no bindis can be pronounced and that there is no 'reading in' of sounds is a new one that is not borne out by old Gurmukhi. You HAVE to read certain sounds into Gurmukhi otherwise it's not proper. But nowadays, we have some usually very young people saying it's a paap to do it and words and names in our history like Sri Guru Harkrishan Sahib and Sahibzada Zoravar Singh are even being altered to push this line of thought.

The whole purpose of getting Santhiya is to know where to put the sounds. If you just "read it as it appears" then a lot of Santhiya wouldn't be necessary. It is essential to get Santhiya from Gursikhs to be able to correctly pronounce Gurbani.

One final example I'll give. Shah Mohammed who wrote "Jangnama", if you read the old Gurmukhi text of it, his name appears as "Saah" Mohammed. There is no bindi under the Sussa. But we all know his name was Shaah Mohammed. You must pronounce the bindi otherwise it's not the correct pronunciation.

You can't have "shudh" without the bindi ! <_<

in sri guru dasm granth, bindi is used in the charan, in zafarnam it is mainly pronounced. . .there are placed in sri guru granth sahib jee where bindi is also pronounced, however not in the charan, e.g saaant, maaangeh, deeda deh, leeehndeh thak paaheh

[Singh132]

I can assure you that in puratan hand written Dasam Granths, there is no bindi under the Jujja or under any other akhar. Bindis in the feet have been created after Guru Sahib's time. In modern print editions people have started putting bindis in Dasam Bani, but they're not there in the original hand-written.

Even if the bindi was in the feet (which it is not), the Haha at the end would be pronounced "Zafarnameh" but no one pronounces it like this. We all know it's called Zafarnamah and we pronounce it like that. So if someone pronouces the Haha the same way in words like Dargah and Panah and Allah, they are pronouncing it correctly.

[singh di fauj]

^^^

are you sure about the bindis in Dasam Granth.. I think Dasam Granth has always had bindis... because bhai gurdas ji's vaars have bindi and those were written before dasam granth..

its funny how our generation just ignore the meanings and just read what is written...

[The Khalsa Fauj]

It doesn't matter as long as you are reading and understanding Gurbani.

There are areas in Punjab where people will prnounce shishaa as sassaa and sassaa as shishaa. They can't change even if their life depended on it so main thing isn't the bindis and shas and sas but Gurbani and its updesh.

[AK-47]

its funny how our generation just ignore the meanings and just read what is written...

Please do not generalise. i think the opposite is in fact true, with people trying to understand what is being said (via english translations etc) without actually being able to read what is written (and hence often getting the wrong meaning of the shabad).

Again i repeat, it is for each sikh to decide on how much effort he or she wants to spend on doing guru jis seva. People who feel they 'cant change for their life' can stop, wheras other gursikhs will give up their life for their guru. I personally have seen kids from the west who have spent countless days and weeks just learning to say 'rarra' (the one that looks like a 3!), while others spend days trying to get ik-onghkar correct.

The way gurbani is read is important, and hopefully one day you will realise this.

Please feel free to give your own opinions on how gurbani should be read or not read. Personally i am very happy having confidence that i am learning from the main institution which was designed and exists for the very purpose of teaching how to read gurbani correctly. I dont expect every sikh in the world to make the effort to track down an experienced and knowledgable ustad to learn gurbani from, so its better to get some from somebody rather then non at all i suppose.

However if you have the chance, please try and learn of a genuine ustad who has learnt from one of the taksals. His santhia will have the work of many mahapurshs and gursikhs behind it, not just the thought of one or two people.

While i dont want to say it, the truth is that for many of us even the santhia we learn has a 'my jatha' basis. People from different backgrounds will not learn from the taksals because they are the taksals. Even though guru maharajh has given us this institution for this purpose. Even if people dont agree that guru gobind singh ji started off taksal, nobody can deny that there is no better place in the world to recieve your santhia giaan from. However, for those of us who have this 'oohhhh taksal hmm' mentality we will never have the capacity to accept that someone else has some giaan which we may not have. As ever nimrata is lacking in us, myself included.

It is not kids these days who are making the rules, but in fact these rules have been taught for generations and centuries. Speaking punjabi with its symbols etc is different from written gurmukhi. The spoken language changes and evolves daily, wheras the beauty of written gurmukhi is that it is eternal (until we start making up our minds to change it and take bits and pieces out etc).

Sorry if the above sounds harsh, but fact of the matter is, if you want proper santhia then go to one of the taksals and learn. If you cant or you dont want to, then at least learn from someone, you might pick up a few things at least. Either way, understand that there is a LOT of work that goes into teaching and learning santhia. Assumptions are no good. Long detailed study is required. And where does this happen .. at taksal. As i have repeated again and again people there have spent their entire lives studying puratan saroops, studying punjabi language and grammer and the history of its development, looking at the way you speak the word, the meanings of the word and the chal or rythm of the line, the original laguage used in the shabad ... all at the same time and then coming to a conclusion. And at the end, if there is still a difference, they will say 'here some people say x and others say y', they recognise the variance and appreciate that unfortunetly you cant be 100% in every case. This honesty is a result of their study and NOT based on what their baba said or what their own khothi mat has told them.

How many ustads or their ustad can speak and read persian/sanskrit etc? How many have read various scriptures of other faiths which are mentioned in guru maharajh? How many sit and talk and share giaan with people who have used the original languages that maharajh has used in gurbani? Bhramgiannis like Sant Gurbachan Singh ji MADE the effort to learn and study and THEN teach. I am happy to learn vidiya which has students such as him contributing to it.

And to answer the original question, from my understanding the takals do not prounounce the perh wich bindi in guru granth sahib ji maharajh. Dasam granth maharajh is different, and you will see how once you start your santhia of that gurbani.

Again good luck to all in your abhiyaas.

[immortal57]

its funny how our generation just ignore the meanings and just read what is written...

Please do not generalise. i think the opposite is in fact true, with people trying to understand what is being said (via english translations etc) without actually being able to read what is written (and hence often getting the wrong meaning of the shabad).

Again i repeat, it is for each sikh to decide on how much effort he or she wants to spend on doing guru jis seva. People who feel they 'cant change for their life' can stop, wheras other gursikhs will give up their life for their guru. I personally have seen kids from the west who have spent countless days and weeks just learning to say 'rarra' (the one that looks like a 3!), while others spend days trying to get ik-onghkar correct.

The way gurbani is read is important, and hopefully one day you will realise this.

Please feel free to give your own opinions on how gurbani should be read or not read. Personally i am very happy having confidence that i am learning from the main institution which was designed and exists for the very purpose of teaching how to read gurbani correctly. I dont expect every sikh in the world to make the effort to track down an experienced and knowledgable ustad to learn gurbani from, so its better to get some from somebody rather then non at all i suppose.

However if you have the chance, please try and learn of a genuine ustad who has learnt from one of the taksals. His santhia will have the work of many mahapurshs and gursikhs behind it, not just the thought of one or two people.

While i dont want to say it, the truth is that for many of us even the santhia we learn has a 'my jatha' basis. People from different backgrounds will not learn from the taksals because they are the taksals. Even though guru maharajh has given us this institution for this purpose. Even if people dont agree that guru gobind singh ji started off taksal, nobody can deny that there is no better place in the world to recieve your santhia giaan from. However, for those of us who have this 'oohhhh taksal hmm' mentality we will never have the capacity to accept that someone else has some giaan which we may not have. As ever nimrata is lacking in us, myself included.

It is not kids these days who are making the rules, but in fact these rules have been taught for generations and centuries. Speaking punjabi with its symbols etc is different from written gurmukhi. The spoken language changes and evolves daily, wheras the beauty of written gurmukhi is that it is eternal (until we start making up our minds to change it and take bits and pieces out etc).

Sorry if the above sounds harsh, but fact of the matter is, if you want proper santhia then go to one of the taksals and learn. If you cant or you dont want to, then at least learn from someone, you might pick up a few things at least. Either way, understand that there is a LOT of work that goes into teaching and learning santhia. Assumptions are no good. Long detailed study is required. And where does this happen .. at taksal. As i have repeated again and again people there have spent their entire lives studying puratan saroops, studying punjabi language and grammer and the history of its development, looking at the way you speak the word, the meanings of the word and the chal or rythm of the line, the original laguage used in the shabad ... all at the same time and then coming to a conclusion. And at the end, if there is still a difference, they will say 'here some people say x and others say y', they recognise the variance and appreciate that unfortunetly you cant be 100% in every case. This honesty is a result of their study and NOT based on what their baba said or what their own khothi mat has told them.

How many ustads or their ustad can speak and read persian/sanskrit etc? How many have read various scriptures of other faiths which are mentioned in guru maharajh? How many sit and talk and share giaan with people who have used the original languages that maharajh has used in gurbani? Bhramgiannis like Sant Gurbachan Singh ji MADE the effort to learn and study and THEN teach. I am happy to learn vidiya which has students such as him contributing to it.

And to answer the original question, from my understanding the takals do not prounounce the perh wich bindi in guru granth sahib ji maharajh. Dasam granth maharajh is different, and you will see how once you start your santhia of that gurbani.

Again good luck to all in your abhiyaas.

yes but as singh132 has mentioned bindia in the feet must be pronounced for correct pronounciation, and as taksal does not teach this (they do not pronounce any bindia in the charan) then if we want to learn how to pronounce gurbani with bindia, then we should perhaps learn off an ustad who would teach us this

[Aparadhee]

khalistan zindabad jio,

thanks for clarifying that, now the question is why is a bindi at the top, meaning to add nunna sound acceptable in maangeh for example? when on another hand we are saying we should never put bindi on charan to change sabad to shabad for example.

if we pronounce maageh as maangeh or indeed deeda deh, leeehndeh thak paaheh,

surely we are changing gurbani and not reading gurbani how it is written by maharaj.

so why does taksal accept adding bindi in this case and so strictly rejects placing bindi in charan of akhar.

surely the same rule of pronouncing gurbani how its written should apply to all situations?

bhull chuk maaf