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Applying The Word "sh"

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This is an interesting article on tapoban sahib on this subject:

It is a fact made explicitly clear by the Satguru himself that Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Word of God Himself. The Alighty Akal Purakh spoke through the Gurus in their state of oneness with Him:

Jiasee Mein Aawai Khasam Ki Bani Taisara Kari Gian Ve Lalo. (ang. 52)

As descends to me the Lord's Word, I express it, 0 Lalo!

Dhur Ki Bani Aaee. (ang. 628)

The Holy Word has dawned from the Primal Divine Source.

While compiling Sri Guru Granth Sahib, The whole Gurbani was written in Gurmukhi script in a continuous chain system of writing, wherein all the words in a line are joined together. Having emanated from the Limitless Divine Source or the Eternal Spirit, its true and correct reading as well as understanding is obviously beyond the limited capacity of the mundane scholarship. Even today, in spite of the hard efforts of the top Sikh scholars to ascertain the correct reading of the Gurbani, there are about 500-700 words where they have not been able to reach a consensus. Then what is the guarantee that in other controversial cases also, where they claim to have reached an agreed break-up of words, their reading is absolutely in accordance with what the Satguru had meant it to be?

Moreover, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not merely a Holy Book. Had it been so, it would have been alright to print or write it in any way one likes. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the Satguru - the True Guru - under whose benevolent care and protection, the Khalsa Panth has been placed by the Satguru himself. If it is so and we really believe in the True Guruship of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then it follows as an obvious corollary that the Satguru will himself remove our ignorance and will bless us with the true wisdom enabling us to read Gurbani correctly.

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How does taksal pronounce sahib and rang in -

ਰੰਙਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਜੇ ਰੰਙੈ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਐਸਾ ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਡੀਠ ॥੨॥

Since they pronounce everything as written - do they pronounce sahib as "sahibo" and rang as "rango"? Notice the "ignored unkaRs"

Also Singh132 asked a very valid question yet not answered; if Gurbani is pronounced exactly like it's written, why take santhiya at all? Jao Punjabi parNi Sikho. Boht eh.

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Guest _Moorakh_

The reason why students at Taksal are taught (in the beginning anyway - at which point summer holidays end and kids head back to UK /USA) to pronounce Gurbani as it is written, is for this reason:

In case Singhs ever find themselves in a position without access to Gutka sahibs or Pothis e.g. in case of war or times of perscution, Gurbani can be dictated with correct spellings, or if need be, you can write your own Gutka with correct spellings. This is hard to do if you haven't had practice learning Gurbani as it is written.

As students progress, they ARE taught a different pronounciation to be used when reading Gurbani to Sangat etc.

The problem is that not many foreign students (who tend to be the most vocal) stay long enough.

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Some of the Veer and phen jees are asking some good questions. To add how do you pronounce the following:

hau FwFI hir pRB Ksm kw hir kY dir AwieAw ]

Why do people say Dhadi? Why not pronounce it the way its written which would therefore be Dhadhti? why is the second letter pronounced with a dhada d. Gurbani viakaran gives us the answer, just a clue, look at the words phaba, ghaga and the shabad above, when these words come second in the word, the pronounciation is of the letter which came before it in the alphabet. Another example is the following word which although spelt with a phaba, its prounced with a bhaba because its second in the word:

pRBu myrw AMqrjwmI jwxu ]


therefore words which come 3rd and 4th in the alphabet and they are second in the word (like prabh, the phaba comes second in the word), its pronounced as the letter which came before it (so in prabh u say a bhaba rather than a phaba).

Serious Gupt jee, Todays taksal have major problems when it comes to this subject (which was supposed to be the purpose of its creation). Sant Gurbachan Singh jees own writings make it clear that he does not believe that words are pronounced the way they are written, the following are examples just from Jap jee Sahib:

Gurbani paath Darshan: page 257 Pauri one Lakh (Sant Gurbachan Singh jee says an adhak it put on the word)

GPD: P. 257 Pauri 2 Bujai (unkar is put on bujai)

GPD: P.258, Gura (a bindi is put on the kana) Ikh deh bujai

GPD: P.258, Pauri 6, Teerath nahva (phair haha), u will not hear people say nava

GPD: P. 258 Pauri 6, vin bhani, ki nahi (phair haha) karee)

However there were things which Sant gurbachan Singh jee missed out or he has written half which was correct, for example:

GPD page 262: jini naam dhiyai, gai masakat Ghal. On the word Mashakat he puts an adhak on, but fails to put a sashai pair bindi.

So its evident that Sant Gurbachan Singh not only added bindia, but also added many other things to words.

However, Although Sant Gurbachan Singh jee did add these bindia, adhak etc, he failed to understand the reasoning behind it and in one place even trys to argue viakaran does not make sense, the following is what I wrote previous on this forum regarding the following shabad:

ਲਾਖ ਕਰੋਰੀ ਬੰਧੁ ਨ ਪਰੈ (ang 264)

where there is new research we must consider it. Baba jee did not realise that Band na is not a noun, Arjan for example is noun, therefore we do not pronounce Arjan as Arj na. If he knew the principles of Gurbani viakaran and Noun/verbs etc he would not written that gurbani viakaran is faulty. On the other hand Bhai Vir Singh jee did not contradict Gurbani viakaran and unlike sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee, he does not say we should pronounce the above line as Lakh Karoree Bandna PAre, but it should be Band na pari.. In his panj granthi steek you will see this.

There is no doubt that Sant Gurbachan Singh jee did alot for the panth, we should also note that before Sant Gurbachan Singh jee wrote his book, it was near impossible to find anything on the subject. However, It makes no sense to not understand what other Veer jees have written, if we dont read what they have then we will go back to the days when people were saying Guru Nanak Dev jee was uneducated, he could not even spell his own name correctly. Gurbani viakaran gives us these answers.

One final thing to note is that bindia were added because there was a need for people like us who did not know whether the word was pronounced with a J sound or Z sound. The word rajai and Razai (in jap jee sahib) have two totally seperate meanings, the latter means Akal Purakhs will. There was also a need to represent sounds which although spoken did not have a letter, these additions came during Guru Gobind Singh jees time. Its clear that bindia were starting to come in during Guru Arjan Dev jees time and u will see bindia in Guru Granth Sahib jee. The lalhai phair bindi was introduced in the 60s and before this time, everyone used to used to say it with a lalhai phair bindi even though the letter did not exist (for example Patiala, Nhall, bhall). it was however introduced in written format so it was easier to identify when reading.

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Guest Faujan

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Dass was lucky to have the sangat of someone who spent many, many years at Taksal in the 70s. The first step in Santhiya is learning Gurbani as it is written. Once this has been memorised, then the student is taught how to recite Gurbani in Sangat.

The problem is that these days, everyone who spends a few months at Taksal comes out calling himself a Taksali and people don't have the patience or time to spend a few years learning. It is these 'summer holiday' students who come back to the UK /USA/ Canada and make statements without having the knowledge to do so that spoil the name of Guru Ji's Taksal.

One of the reasons to memorise Gurbani as it is written is so Singhs can check for spelling mistakes in Pothis / Gutkey Sahibs and more importantly, to have the ability to dictate Gurbani correctly if the Panth finds itself attacked and without Saroops of Guru Sahib or Pothis etc.

With this knowledge, in times of war, Singhs can write out their own Gutkey with correct spellings. It is important to keep the spellings as Guru Sahib gave them to us.

On a side note, Veer Ghorandhar Ji, please don't make assumptions about a Pooran Bhramgyani's knowledge. Viakaran has its uses but the true meanings of Gurbani can only be known through Anubhav.

The MOST important thing is not to argue over pronounciations but to FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS of Guru Sahib.

Forgive me for my mistakes.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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some good posts,

meaning of bani comes through abhyaas but maharaj has given us gurbani viakaran to help us understnd true meaning of bani and so it cannot be ignored, and if a arth is suggested which contradicts viakaran then viakaran should have authority imho.

we shud not make assumptions of sant gurbachan singhs ability to interpret bani becus these mahapursh hve mre understnding then we can eva have,

but like many of the posts above have stated the current modern day santhiya of taksal is in contradiction to what earlier mahapursh taught.

there are alot of educated arguements (like the ones stated in this thread) that need to be answered, until then it would be reckless to think taksal has a monoply on maharajs santhiya.

bhul chuk maaf

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Veer Faujan jee, im not making any assumptions. The fact is that Sant Gurbachan Singh jee tries to prove Gurbani viakaran as being incorrect, however the failure to notice that examples such as Arjan was a noun totally destroys his argument. People like Bhai Vir Singh jee notice this error and mention that words such as Arjan are a noun unlike Band na and therefore Arjan will not be Arj na.

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Gurbani is not just 1 language - how can you apply the same grammatical rules to Sanskrit, Marathi, Braj etc?

Gurbani viakaran is the viakaran of gurbani, when looking at others language you are still reading in gurmukhi. For example a sanbodan shabad which ends with oora noo unkar has a bindi on. The oora nu unkar (sanbodan shabad) is the grammitical rule. For example in rehras sahib: Akhha jeeva visrai mar jaoo (bindi) If the sanskit words were written in devanagri then I could understand where you were coming from.

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Surely Gurmukhi is just the script - Sanskrit grammatical rules should still apply to Sanskrit no matter what script it is written in. Just because the same 'lipi' or script is used to write English and French, it doesn't mean I can apply English grammar rules to French and vice-versa.

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Surely Gurmukhi is just the script - Sanskrit grammatical rules should still apply to Sanskrit no matter what script it is written in. Just because the same 'lipi' or script is used to write English and French, it doesn't mean I can apply English grammar rules to French and vice-versa.

If words from different language's are added to a line, would we change the whole grammar? For example the words Jungle (used in Baba Farid jees bani) has been bought into english, the word kismat has also been used in English, so because words from other languages have been bought into a system of language, it will not mean that where the word jungle comes into English we will look at punjabi grammar.

Veer jee the reason why people called Guru jee uneducated was because they were looking at punjabi langauge (and its viakaran) rather than gurbani viakaran. Gumukhi is used, however the viakaran is differnt to Punjabi (there are some similarities) for example can you show me where oora noo unkar in sanbodan shabad indicates a bindi in punjabi grammar? Can you tell me what the word ikh with and without an unkar in Punjabi viakrana means? The point is that because a punjabi word is used, it does mean we will look at punjabi grammar, esp when it has no answer. The point of adding the unkar was to indicate that the meanings were different betweeen ikh.

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