Did Bhai Bala Exist?

[ghorandhar]

Firstly Veer Kam jee, you should not give all the credit to Prof Sahib Singh jee. Karam Singh historian died in 1930, prof Sahib Singh jees Teeka was first published in the 1970s as was his book Adi Bir bare. What relation does Karam Singh historian have to missionarys? you are giving credit to the wrong people.

As for Kala Afghana,I have read all his books and I dont agree with alot of his writings. There is a book called Sabh dusht chak mara. It is written in response to Kala Afghanas claims, I agree with alot of the writers response. If you wanted to ask me my views on Kala Afghana or wanted to discuss his claims, fair enough, but dont go around saying I am a chela of Kala Afghana. Thanks

I totally agree with Veer V jee. Bhai Sahib Kam Singh jee, Bhai Vir Singh jee does not say this line is in referance to Bhai Bala, please look at his translation (the Arth section under the shabad) and not the footnote. In the translation Bhai Vir Singh jee does not say 'Bal' means Bhai Bala, he refutes this claim by saying: 'Taru the gurmukh in a young age (Bal)'.... in the footnote he says that others believe it means Bhai Bala. I would suggest you do what Veer V jee did, he looked at Bhai Vir Singh jees Kosh, from there you will see a second referance of what Bhai Vir Singh jee says Bal means. I would also like to note that Bhai Vir Singh jees translation is more closer to Prof Sahib Singh jees and not the Damdami Taksal ideology, for example look at what Sant baba Gurbachan Singh jee and Bhai Vir Singh jee both write about the following shabad:

ਲਾਖ ਕਰੋਰੀ ਬੰਧੁ ਨ ਪਰੈ (ang 264)

Now I have the utmost respect for Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee and what he did for the panth, however where there is new research we must consider it. Baba jee did not realise that Band na is not a noun, Arjan for example is noun, therefore we do not pronounce Arjan as Arj na. If he knew the principles of Gurbani viakaran and Noun/verbs etc he would not written that gurbani viakaran is faulty. On the other hand Bhai Vir Singh jee did not contradict Gurbani viakaran and unlike sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee, he does not say we should pronounce the above line as Lakh Karoree Bandna PAre, but it should be Band na pari.. In his panj granthi steek you will see this. It is therefore unfair to attach Bhai Vir Singh jee to any sampardar such as the Damdami Taksal. Im abit confused how Sant Jarnail Singh jee should be anyones avtar. Avtar of whom? Veer jee I do not follow any samparda and no person is my avtar and no sant is my guru (I no this was not referred to me, but im just abit worried about your connotation). I only follow the Guru Granth Sahib jee because the Shabad guru is our primary referance, the Panth Khalsa completes the Miri Piri ideology. Everything else is only secondary, therefore I will never say that flana flana said this, so it is correct, the reason is simple: they are not my guru. Respect is one thing, blindly following is another. We should only blindly follow Gurbani and the Panth Khalsa, only gurbani is a revelation, everything else is an evolution of thought.

[S1ngh]

All this BS/Propaganda by Missionaries.... Stuffing this crap in youths' mind.. im just sick of it !!!

[Matheen]

Now I have the utmost respect for Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee and what he did for the panth, however where there is new research we must consider it. Baba jee did not realise that Band na is not a noun, Arjan for example is noun, therefore we do not pronounce Arjan as Arj na. If he knew the principles of Gurbani viakaran and Noun/verbs etc he would not written that gurbani viakaran is faulty.

What a load of rubbish.

Im abit confused how Sant Jarnail Singh jee should be anyones avtar. Avtar of whom?

He meant avAtar - the picture on the left hand side, below his username.

[jassa]

[dalsingh101]

What is the big deal? Maybe Bhai Bala did not exist as is being suggested. Strong evidence points at that. If not let the "sianay" explain conclusively to the youth. What makes me angry is the promotion of "not thinking" and accepting things like a lemming. If people did that we would still have Hindu idols in Harmandir Sahib. We all know there was a period of confusion regarding SIkh practice due to the extermination policies of the Mughuls. So it is natural people will scrutinise things now.

We should be happy that the youth are studying, researching and questioning. As well as the spiritual dimension, there IS the worldly dimension. Let the youth be critical thinkers. It is good for the future of the panth not bad!

Just because you are questioning certain historical issues it doesn't mean you lack faith.

[Matheen]

We should be happy that the youth are studying, researching and questioning. As well as the spiritual dimension, there IS the worldly dimension. Let the youth be critical thinkers. It is good for the future of the panth not bad!

You need to have the knowledge to engage in critical thinking. What sometimes happens on here is akin to a first grader trying to understand and criticise an essay on quantum mechanics.

Without faith, there is no Sikhi.

[S1ngh]

We should be happy that the youth are studying, researching and questioning. As well as the spiritual dimension, there IS the worldly dimension. Let the youth be critical thinkers. It is good for the future of the panth not bad!

You need to have the knowledge to engage in critical thinking. What sometimes happens on here is akin to a first grader trying to understand and criticise an essay on quantum mechanics.

Without faith, there is no Sikhi.

Nicely said...

[Balwinder Singh]

We should be happy that the youth are studying, researching and questioning. As well as the spiritual dimension, there IS the worldly dimension. Let the youth be critical thinkers. It is good for the future of the panth not bad!

You need to have the knowledge to engage in critical thinking. What sometimes happens on here is akin to a first grader trying to understand and criticise an essay on quantum mechanics.

Without faith, there is no Sikhi.

I agree with you, however, there is a difference between faith and blind faith. Questioning is a good habit but reaching at premature conclusions can be dangerous.

We should not call names, demean and stop these questions We should answer them with faith and determination.

[dalsingh101]

We should be happy that the youth are studying, researching and questioning. As well as the spiritual dimension, there IS the worldly dimension. Let the youth be critical thinkers. It is good for the future of the panth not bad!

You need to have the knowledge to engage in critical thinking. What sometimes happens on here is akin to a first grader trying to understand and criticise an essay on quantum mechanics.

Without faith, there is no Sikhi.

The fact that a "first grader" (as you put it) is trying to unfathom something like that in the first place goes to his/her credit. Yes, their thinking may be wrong and later information may cause them to review held opinions but I'm glad they are at least trying to ascertain fact from fiction. In this day and age where the average Sikh kid knows nothing about their heritage that is good.

On top of this, when it comes to understanding Gurbani most of us are like first graders out of our depth. Well I am anyway.

Your last statement seems to imply that not believing in the existence Bhai Bala equates to a lack of faith - is this what you believe?

[Nirvair S Khalsa]

The audio clip you listened to was by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae. A Pooran Brahmgiani who have done the katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji many times and can be heard on the internet. There is no comparison from their katha to anybody else's.

i have read the teekas of Bhai Jodh Singh, Giani Narain Singh also both as you quite rightly state do not mention the line about Taroo Popat to menion Bhai bala. However if you read Bhai Vir Singh Ji's you will find that the line mentions obviously Taroo Popat and Bhai Bala as Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji did. All the old sampardavas such as the nihangs, sevapanthis, nirmalas and udasi (although udasi do little parchar of bhai gurdas dian vaaran) all state that the line in this pauri states the name of Bhai Bala. The teekas that are being created by Taksal have Bhai Bala in the translation of the line. Handwritten teekas i have seen of a number of sants as well and they all states that the bit 'Gurmukh Bal Subhai Udasi' talks of Bhai Bala Ji who from an early age has a sense of dispassion towards the world. The teeka of Bhai Vir Singh Ji is quoted by Sant Hari Singh Ji.

Best thing to do is have a one to one with Sant Hari Singh when they come to the country in which you reside.

Sunnybondsingh i totally disagree with everything you have put up so far on this thread. You have a picture of Sant Jarnail Singh Ji on as your Avtar. I think they would have told you where to go if you brought this topic up considering the teachings of Taksal on the Bhai Gurdas Dian Vaaran and the katha of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae.

If you are going to use Sant Jarnail Singh Ji as a role model think firstly of what their views were and would they view your healthy discussion as a thread to create doubts in susceptable minds.

How people have you made doubt the existance of Bhai Bala and took them away from the Sampardai meanings of Bhai Gurdas Dian Vaaran

Dhaas agrees, dhaas takes the word and facts of Pooran Brehamgianee's like those stated above as truth. This missionary, Kala Afghana, Ghagga, Darshan Professor,...etc type thinking is a disease in the Khalsa Panth.