Raagi's And Kachi Bani

[Gurmat Sangeet]

<<< SATGURU ARJUN DEV JI HIMSELF PLAYED THE SARANDA AND DID GURMAT SANGEET, why do we ignore that and take the lazy mans road of doing kirtan>>>

Not everyone is at the same level, some can do raag others cannot, just as some people are amritdharies and others are not, you cannot comdemn them.

<<< I dont blame any of the youth, because its the RAAGI'S that are the role models, and if they sell themselves like prostitutes for a mere £5 just to propogate Manmat, just to give the sangat some funky tunes >>>

What can the Kirtanis do? Their money is stolen by the Gurdwara comities and given a poultry sum.

Of course the ideal is to sing in raag and many do, but you cannot condemn those who cannot, you feel they should stop kirtan and sit on one side ?

I'd rather we all do kirtan even if it means placing your fingers on three swaras and just doing kirtan on a simple tune.

Respected Brother or Sister,

See that is the thing, anyone and i mean anyone can do kirtan in Raag all it requires is a little effort, its like anyone can do or has the capability of doing nitnem but it requiers effort and commitment of getting up in the morning.

As for you second point, i would rather not do comercial kirtan than do avagya of my Satgurus hukkam and do manmat and serve my swarth.

[KhalsaMan]

<<< SATGURU ARJUN DEV JI HIMSELF PLAYED THE SARANDA AND DID GURMAT SANGEET, why do we ignore that and take the lazy mans road of doing kirtan>>>

Not everyone is at the same level, some can do raag others cannot, just as some people are amritdharies and others are not, you cannot comdemn them.

<<< I dont blame any of the youth, because its the RAAGI'S that are the role models, and if they sell themselves like prostitutes for a mere £5 just to propogate Manmat, just to give the sangat some funky tunes >>>

What can the Kirtanis do? Their money is stolen by the Gurdwara comities and given a poultry sum.

Of course the ideal is to sing in raag and many do, but you cannot condemn those who cannot, you feel they should stop kirtan and sit on one side ?

I'd rather we all do kirtan even if it means placing your fingers on three swaras and just doing kirtan on a simple tune.

Respected Brother or Sister,

See that is the thing, anyone and i mean anyone can do kirtan in Raag all it requires is a little effort, its like anyone can do or has the capability of doing nitnem but it requiers effort and commitment of getting up in the morning.

As for you second point, i would rather not do comercial kirtan than do avagya of my Satgurus hukkam and do manmat and serve my swarth.

Fateh Ji,

If I have this right, you believe it is manmat to do kirtan in any other way besides gurmat keertan?

I find that hard to fathom. Reciting gurbani is reciting gurbani.

[Gurmat Sangeet]

Fateh Ji,

If I have this right, you believe it is manmat to do kirtan in any other way besides gurmat keertan?

I find that hard to fathom. Reciting gurbani is reciting gurbani.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Is it not manmat to do kachi bani to generate money on the stage because all the old bibiya go crazy when they hear "mehrawalea shahiya rakhi chana de kol"

Is it not Manmant to sit on chairs and eat langar when its Gurus hukkam to sit on the floor.

Bhai saab you answered your own question in your question anything that is not done in accordance to Gurmat is manmat, therefore kirtan not done in accordance to gurmat sangeet is manmat, because we are doing what according to us is right and not what our Satguru wants us to do.

Rehraas is meant to be done at night, so in accordance to your statement that reciting gurbani is reciting gurbani, it can be done at any time of the day.

Bhai saab, why cant you fathom that Satguru gave us a direct order, and we overlook it?

Kirtaniya are depriving you the sangat from experiencing the meaning of baani by not doing gurmat sangeet, as there is no better way of expressing baani than gurmat sangeet. This is because music is a universal medium.

Like i said before if we were all to do Gurmat Sangeet, this problem with kachi baani would not occur.

[N30S1NGH]

I feel this discussion went from one exterme to another.

[smartsingh24]

Fateh Ji,

If I have this right, you believe it is manmat to do kirtan in any other way besides gurmat keertan?

I find that hard to fathom. Reciting gurbani is reciting gurbani.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Is it not manmat to do kachi bani to generate money on the stage because all the old bibiya go crazy when they hear "mehrawalea shahiya rakhi chana de kol"

Is it not Manmant to sit on chairs and eat langar when its Gurus hukkam to sit on the floor.

Bhai saab you answered your own question in your question anything that is not done in accordance to Gurmat is manmat, therefore kirtan not done in accordance to gurmat sangeet is manmat, because we are doing what according to us is right and not what our Satguru wants us to do.

Rehraas is meant to be done at night, so in accordance to your statement that reciting gurbani is reciting gurbani, it can be done at any time of the day.

Bhai saab, why cant you fathom that Satguru gave us a direct order, and we overlook it?

Kirtaniya are depriving you the sangat from experiencing the meaning of baani by not doing gurmat sangeet, as there is no better way of expressing baani than gurmat sangeet. This is because music is a universal medium.

Like i said before if we were all to do Gurmat Sangeet, this problem with kachi baani would not occur.

Out of curiosity, I must know. You just said that Rehras is meant to be done at night, and that is true. But then why does Rehras contain shabads in raag Asa? Asa is a morning raag is it not? And I'm sorry, but I don't see how not performing gurmat sangeet is depriving the sangat of the bani's meaning. The meaning lies in the words that compose the shabad doesn't it?

[Gurmat Sangeet]

Out of curiosity, I must know. You just said that Rehras is meant to be done at night, and that is true. But then why does Rehras contain shabads in raag Asa? Asa is a morning raag is it not? And I'm sorry, but I don't see how not performing gurmat sangeet is depriving the sangat of the bani's meaning. The meaning lies in the words that compose the shabad doesn't it?

Raags in Gurmat Sangeet arent restricted to time, time is a major factor in Shastriya Sangeet but not in Gurmat Sangeet. Because in Gurmat Sangeet it isnt the time of the raag which is important, its the emotion that it carrier, For example Asa is a raag of hope, in the evening we pray with humility and hope that there will be another day tomorow where we can serve the Lord again, etc.

Gurmat Sangeet ampliphies the message of Gurbani because music is a Univeral language, you get a different experience of bani when you listen to it being read and when being sung with emotion. Besides all of this why isnt anybody getting the fact that this is Satgurus Hukkam and we cannot alter it because it is attal, so i ask why do we go against Satgurus wishes, why do we disobey him?

As for depriving the sangat, if the message of satguru is that we should behave ourselves or we will have to face the music, and your singing it in a happy tune, is that portraying the true message of the bani?

its like me having a go (swearing) at someone with a smile on my face, it doesnt make sence, sending mixed emotions. Hence why satguru labelled the bani with raag so that we can feel the correct emotion with that bani and understand it fully and not be in any misconception. So that when we face him we can say oh well i never really understood what you were saying. He has given us the tools why disobey him?

[ghorandhar]

<<<< Therefore I think singing anything which is not the Gurus shabads (or Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal jees shabads which is parvan by the panth) with a saaj accepted in the guru ghar and singing in the roop of kirtan (sitting chaunkri unlike dhadi which is standing and is sang with its own rules), constitutes kachi bani. >>>

No, this is clearly wrong. In AnandSahib Ji it says nothing about sitting chaunkri constitutes kuchi or suchi bani. Kuchi bani was those compositions that were being passed off as Guru Ki bani. People like Dhirmal were trying to pass off other compositions as bani. Bhagat Kanna and Bhagat Pillu whose compositions were rejected by Guru Arjun Dev Ji for Adhu Guru GranthSahib Ji tried to pass their compositions as bani, this is kutchi bani.

<<< I also dont believe in the old days simple tunes were played or darnas, this creation of darna was after 1920/30s. >>

Again this is your view, dharna has been going on in many guises for hundreds of years, sadhus used to sing dharna which were copied and sung by those ploughing the fields.

<<< SATGURU ARJUN DEV JI HIMSELF PLAYED THE SARANDA AND DID GURMAT SANGEET, why do we ignore that and take the lazy mans road of doing kirtan>>>

Not everyone is at the same level, some can do raag others cannot, just as some people are amritdharies and others are not, you cannot comdemn them.

<<< I dont blame any of the youth, because its the RAAGI'S that are the role models, and if they sell themselves like prostitutes for a mere £5 just to propogate Manmat, just to give the sangat some funky tunes >>>

What can the Kirtanis do? Their money is stolen by the Gurdwara comities and given a poultry sum.

Of course the ideal is to sing in raag and many do, but you cannot condemn those who cannot, you feel they should stop kirtan and sit on one side ?

I'd rather we all do kirtan even if it means placing your fingers on three swaras and just doing kirtan on a simple tune.

Veer jee I was talking about kirtan gayan sheli which has been kept alive by a few individuals. The gayan sheli and method of kirtan is chaunkri. kachi bani is an imitation of maryada given by guru sahib. Its simple, if you want to do simple tunes and kavita which people feel is easier to understand then use the maryada which guru sahib gave us called dhadi. Darna is an imitation of the way gur shabad is done, this is why people constitute darna as kachi bani. There are 100s of simple shabads which we can all understand, but why do people not sing these shabads? If gurbani is hard to understand why not sing shabads such as: Tu mera pita to hai mera mata? har jan simroo hirdai ram? or joo mangai ta kur apni teh (char desha kee noo bal apna)? If you want to look at Anand Sahib (which I orginally was not referring to), the word 'bina' makes it clear that other than Guru jees bani, all other is kachi. Each pauri is linked to the other, read the pauri before and after pauri 24 and you will see the emphasis is on Gur shabad. Gurbani is staight from nirankar, darna are the creation of individuals and subject to faults, therefore guru jee says even when they are singing paratma's name, they still are false (because its not the word of god). Har Har nit kari rasana kahya kachoo na janee. The imitation of gur shabad and kirtan by darna makes me feel that it is being passed of like bani.

Veer jee I. saying that darna entered gurughar after 1920s/30s, before this time I do not believe they were allowed, Harmander Sahib for example has never allowed darna or any recitation other than gurbani. Im not interested in Sadhus, im only interested in the maryada of gurughar.

Veer jee I might be wrong, but a raag is between 5 and 7 sura. What makes Raag so hard that people cannot play it? most tunes I have heard people play are between these amount of sura aswell. So we can listen to pop tunes and copy them, but we have problems doing kirtan in raags which will require you to use between 5 to 7 sura.