Punjab Radio

[Guest confusingh]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam.

The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go.

Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them.

Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html

Here is the English one:

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133

Veer ji,

In regards to Naam japna, even Bani tells us we cannot solely rely on this as a journey in mukti and we do not learn how to implement morals and values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in our everyday lives by Naam Japna, but by Shabads, Kirtan and reading and understanding the message of Mahara ji, we are not supposed to neglect either Gian or Naam Japna, that is what my point is.

I am also not saying that seva of the panth should not be applauded and praised, but I do not feel there should be segregation, if one does alot of sewa and kirtan parchar, does that make them a Sant... we should not use Sant as a title such as Sir or Lord in Western terms, but rather as a person who is detached and impartial, this is not the case with many modern day Sants.

I did no say anything in regards to funding of projects, I said personal gain, this is seen with many of the 'sants' they have beautiful choley whilst realistically Singhs in Panjab do not have these, a true Sant would not allow others to call them Sant they would remain humble within their mind; even Gurbani tells us this. IF we cannot put vishwaas in Guru Maharaj we should not then put it in humans, we should look to gain guidance and knowledge from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, if we are not to do so then we do become manmukhs as we are not independent, impartial and detached.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee I disagree with you the way you are looking at gurbani and gian. I understand you are saying gian is important and I agree. But what im trying to refer to is where is what is that when we read the shabad what gian have we taken away? I believe in Guru dee kirpa, Apnaa mat chadnaa, this what I understand.

I used to think that we could not put this title on put there are hundreds of shabads talking about Sant jaana mil har jas gaiooo. If some person is called sant, I dont have a problem with it, I cant see how it affects your life and why it causes you such stress. If someone calls a person Sant, baba, giani, Bhai etc they have satkar for that person. If a sant has personal gain why is that wrong? should he starve and where ripped clothes. I cant see where you are going with this topic.

I dont know which sant you have met who tells you to call them a sant.

Veer ji,

Let me cover the points you have brought up firstly I fail to see how you are applying brahmgiani, the true beholder of all knowledge of the supreme God, to humans among us, who are keertanis but in order to advertise their jatha they will say their leader is a sant (without offending chelay we have heard alot of stories; simran in a lake and they've been saved, not eating for the majority of a year, and recently we had claims that a young sant who we all know of developed cancer and without any medical help the cancer itself has gone, this cancer however did develop under no medical diagnosis, and at a time when this young sant was accused of wearing a kalgi accepting gifts and allowing misguided sangat to do matha tekhna to him, so very questionable) these acts are not moral in any way shape or form, you are not appeasing anybody these are usless as our Gurus told us these acts don't mean anything, hence the denouncing of pilgrimages, fasts, mysticism and miracles within our material world and the need to not have attachment to these. So lets agree, Brahmgiani can not be applied in the context used as shown to humans among us such as these modern day luxurious Derewale Sants, first you said they need money for projects, now there is no problem with them obtaining maya.

'Teto lavia'

the more one talks uselessly.

'Baho bhekh kia dehi dukh dia'

The more one wears religious robes, the more pain he causes his body.

'Saho ve jia apna kia'

O my soul, you must endure the consequences of your own actions.

Is this not again directing us to stay away from not understanding Bani just chanting it, wearing robes (as these rich sants who won't feel the recession are) and does this quote from Guru Maharaj ji again tell us we are judged upon our deeds, whether we are moral or immoral. Veer ji you may not agree with me personally, but this is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj saying this not me, and I'm sure to some extent you do feel it is our duty as Sikhs to abide by these ways set out by Guru ji, if we are not and we live in the doubt that maybe we could apply terms to these humans (which Bani does go against) then how much can we learn, are we not neglecting Maharaj ji by avoiding having to understand Gurbani. My primary issue is the fact that these Sants do incorrect parchaar, they interpret and translate Guru Maharaj ji's words incorrectly and those such as the young one, Ranjit singh in fact rarely will tell you much about our Gurus. Sangat Ji we need to keep clear from paaps hence me posting about this these people can not be applied on the level of being Brahmgianis, for many years sangat claimed a great sant had supernatural powers, however since accusations of Sexual abuse the sant is now very quiet and stopped his parchar, surely if he had nothing to hide and was truthful he should have carried out his parchaar. This was an issue well documented in the website panthic.org, they do great seva for the Gursikh community.

Therefore it is not the point that this title 'sant' has just appeared in front of this Bhai's name, it has appeared there because somebody is misinterpreting the message of Bani and DOES actually believe the characteristics of a Sant make this person one, however it is debatable whether these people who put titles in front of their leaders names have read Bani to fully understand what a sant is, im not doubting the existance of Sants in the past, all I'm saying is how come they were nothing like the rich, and very luxurious lifestyled sants that we know of today, with huge beautiful dere and sangats flocking to them to do their darshan, this isn't Sikhi at all!

I do not wish to offend anybody's views I understand if one person follows something all their life it hard to think out of the box once that routine is in place, in their eyes nobody should ever question their Sant, and I'm not taking anything away from them I still say these Bhais have done great Seva and have been good GurSikhs (some of them) but they are not Sants, because we're not the ones who should judge, a Sant would consider himself the dust of Sangat's shoes the lower of low, and the Guru the highest of highest. Even Bani says this. I respect your views veer ji, and thank you for your response and respecting mine, I do not wish to offend you and if I have bhul chuk maaf karna because that is no my intention, I see you as my fellow brother and respect your views but do not agree with them.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest confusingh]

Veer Confusingh, going back on topic, Bhai Jasvir Singh and other presenters on Punjab Radio HAVE said there is no need for simran, ALL Sants are fake, all Dasam Bani is fake and other ridiculous statements calling everything they don't understand 'bhamanvaad'.

That is the issue with them, I'm sure everyone here will agree that we need to do vichaar of Gurbani etc. That was never the issue - it just seems that are a mouthpiece for the heretic Singhsabha Canada movement.

As for Mahapursh, my experience with the real ones is that they do all they can to join us with Gurbani, not themselves.

I don't believe censorship should even be an option for us, then we would not be treating all equally and giving responses to counter, we would be losing a media outlet which does do some good parchar when we hardly have any media representation (as well as the odd points some may not agree with). The radio station in fact does shabads of Dasam Bani so they do not claim ALL of it is fake, this is untrue veer ji, and they do to some extent bring people close to Sikhi.

My brother's friend is quite young, although around 23 now born in to a non-amritdhari family, he used to drink and do alot of bad stuff, had many girlfriends was quite a popular chap, played rugby at quite a high level as well, anyway I recently went to an Akhand Paath in Southall, and I saw some heavily built (he's bigger than me, and Sangat ji i'm 6'4 and been training for a long time) chardhi kalaa Singh and I said Fateh to the brother, only to find that this was the once manmukh guy who was good friends with my brother and I felt really really proud that this naujawaan has come towards GurSikhi, he told me, he knew nothing of Sikhi and didn't like how the auntiyan at Gurdwara were doing things in a Manmat style, he listened to Panjab Radio (AND OK I DONT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THEY SAY) but he did come towards Sikhi and this guy was one who you'd never think would do, therefore I feel they do have effect in their parchaar and do help people to come towards Sikhi.

Even if people are totally against these views, then they should atleast agree that censorship is actually the most ignorant and laughable option people have put forward, we then have less media representation and we lose the Sangat who follow Sikhi and listen to parchaar on Panjab Radio, we should allow people their own views, for we are not animals who cannot think for ourselves.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest confusingh]

Also I would like to bring sangat's attention to the following quotes from Guru ji's ang 216 in regards to my previous posts:-

'Barat nem sanjam meh rahta tin ka adh na paia.

Fasting, daily rituals, and austere self-discipline - those who keep the practice of these, are rewarded with less than a shell.

Agai chalan aor hai bhai unha kam na aia. ||1||

Hereafter, the way is different, O Siblings of Destiny. There, these things are of no use at all.

Tirath nae ar dharni bharmata agai thaur na pavai.

Those who bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, and wander over the earth, find no place of rest hereafter.

Uha kam na avai ih bidh oh logan hi patiavai. ||2||

There, these are of no use at all. By these things, they only please other people. ||2||

Chatur bed mukh bachni uchrai agai mahal na paīai.

Reciting the four Vedas from memory, they do not obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence hereafter.

Bujhai nahi ek sudhakhar oh sagli jhakh jhakhaiai. ||3|| '

Those who do not understand the One Pure Word, utter total nonsense. ||3||

Come on Sangat Ji, those who have problems with me that is fine, but Guru Maharaj clearly states what is correct and what is not, so we do need to stay away from RITUALISM and UNINFORMED CHANTING OF PAATH OR SHABAD. I hope sangat are able to gain knowledge from the quotes posted.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Inder Singh]

confu singh wrote

Anhad bani gurmukh jani birlo ko arthavai.'

ARTHAVAI = understand, know and comprehend the meaning of, to intelligently (with a capacity of thought and reason) perceive, is conscious of.

Here Guru ji is talking about higher stage of spiritualism and not about reading shabad. Very few people reach that stage.

[Inder Singh]

Confu singh,

How do you like below

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥:

Jo praanee Govind dhiyaavai. Parhiyaa anparhiyaa param gait paavai:

That mortal who meditates on God, whether educated or uneducated,

obtains the state of supreme realization

Ang 197,SGGS

I do not say that formal education is bad but has little relevance for God realization.

[ghorandhar]

Veer confusing jee, i read your comments about sants, but I dont understand how you would translate all the shabads in gurbani which mention Sants (plural). Sant is the singular is in referance to guru jee but who are all these sants in the plurar?

We all recite Barahmaaha and guru jee says, 'Chet Gobind Aradheeai, hovai anand ghana. Sant Jana mihal payai, rasana naam bhana'. Ang 133. Who are those sant jana? Even if you use Prof Sahib Singh jees translation and not the English ones, he says that the gift of reciting parmatmas naam is obtained by meeting the sants.

Then look in the vaisakh shabad, Vaisakh suhava taa lagai, jaa sant bhetai har sohee. Here its not referring to sants but in the singular. But how can you ignore all the shabads like the one in Chet?

As for science, Its not my subject and I dont have much knowledge of it. However If you want to prove things through through science, how would you prove dhurkee bani? how can Akal Purakh speak through the guru? jasaee mai avai khasam kee bani. If science wont agree with a head coming of a gurmukh and he is still able to continue to fight, what will science say about our belief that the shabad being a revelation? Some things are beyond our understanding and then we try to make the guru and sants like our own low level of spirituality. Science is a good thing to study, however its there to intepret gurbani or sakhia. If we are going to use science to understand gurbani then we have 100s of shabads like ganga kee lehar meri tutee janjeer...

I feel you are taking one aspect of Sikhi (shabad dee khoj) and trying say weigh it with other aspects (such as naam japna) when in fact they are all necessary for a Sikh. You are also guilty of the say crime as alot of other people who say all missionarys are nindaks by writing against all sants.

I have not in any of my posts said there is no need for Naam Japna, in fact in my last post I said it should go alongside Shabade Dee Khoj in order to keep a Sikh focused upon what they are attempting to obtain which is Mukti, to reach Waheguru. I have also not used a scientific approach at all, scientifically speaking I wouldn't have faith in God at all if I was to go according to science, it just the words and vocabulary I have chose to use which has led some sangat to believe I am taking a scientific approach to Sikhi; although several people do claim that Sikhi and science can go together and that Sikhi is very logical, I believe Sikhi is logical and makes alot of sense, but I'm not an atheist therefore I cannot take a scientific approach to my dharam.

The term and set up of Sants as we know it now, of equal beings promoted as Sants is one which has a Bhakti influence within it, this is prominent within the Bhakti movement, I cannot be conclusive in regards to meaning, however Sant as a singular, as you said is in reference Guru ji, the plural of Sant could be in relation to true Gurmukhs, I am not ruling that out by any means, all I am saying is the common translation in English of Sant which we use is a wise, considerate, judicious and knowledgeable person, however nowadays this is rather being used as a title and ahankar is being obtained also by these people, as they use it as a pedestal, rather than remaining spiritually detached, well knowledge and tirelessly doing seva, parchaar is not a method of sharing their gian, it is a method of using people as a means of personal gain, perhaps a large dera, several greatly significant 'donations' and these are not the acts of 'sant' as described in Gurbani, i'm sure you'll agree with me.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee i made the comment about naam japna because i wonder the impression from your previous post you was not happy with some people doing this in the gurughar you go.

Veer jee, if you visit the pinds in Punjab you will find that majority of the people who are Sikh, visit the large deras you refer to. The rest of the people padhar. Of course there are pakhandi, if there was during guru jees time there will be now aswell. However all we do is concentrate on the pakhandi. If they have maya is that a bad thing and does that make them pandhandi? If you visit Jwadi Taksal in Ludhiana you will see what Sant Sucha Singh jee has done to preserve gurmat sangeet. You cant carry out these projects without money. But soon as a sant has money he is a pakhandi. If the sant sits in a puragh to do bhagati then people start complaining that he is doing what Hindu Sadhus do... So people just contine to find things to complain about. How many Khatavacikhs go to Pinds like the Sants? however no one attacks them.

Regarding the Baraahmaah shabad and sants, i used the following translation: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0133.html

Here is the English one:

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&PageNo=133

Veer ji,

In regards to Naam japna, even Bani tells us we cannot solely rely on this as a journey in mukti and we do not learn how to implement morals and values of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj in our everyday lives by Naam Japna, but by Shabads, Kirtan and reading and understanding the message of Mahara ji, we are not supposed to neglect either Gian or Naam Japna, that is what my point is.

I am also not saying that seva of the panth should not be applauded and praised, but I do not feel there should be segregation, if one does alot of sewa and kirtan parchar, does that make them a Sant... we should not use Sant as a title such as Sir or Lord in Western terms, but rather as a person who is detached and impartial, this is not the case with many modern day Sants.

I did no say anything in regards to funding of projects, I said personal gain, this is seen with many of the 'sants' they have beautiful choley whilst realistically Singhs in Panjab do not have these, a true Sant would not allow others to call them Sant they would remain humble within their mind; even Gurbani tells us this. IF we cannot put vishwaas in Guru Maharaj we should not then put it in humans, we should look to gain guidance and knowledge from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, if we are not to do so then we do become manmukhs as we are not independent, impartial and detached.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee I disagree with you the way you are looking at gurbani and gian. I understand you are saying gian is important and I agree. But what im trying to refer to is where is what is that when we read the shabad what gian have we taken away? I believe in Guru dee kirpa, Apnaa mat chadnaa, this what I understand.

I used to think that we could not put this title on put there are hundreds of shabads talking about Sant jaana mil har jas gaiooo. If some person is called sant, I dont have a problem with it, I cant see how it affects your life and why it causes you such stress. If someone calls a person Sant, baba, giani, Bhai etc they have satkar for that person. If a sant has personal gain why is that wrong? should he starve and where ripped clothes. I cant see where you are going with this topic.

I dont know which sant you have met who tells you to call them a sant.

Veer ji,

Let me cover the points you have brought up firstly I fail to see how you are applying brahmgiani, the true beholder of all knowledge of the supreme God, to humans among us, who are keertanis but in order to advertise their jatha they will say their leader is a sant (without offending chelay we have heard alot of stories; simran in a lake and they've been saved, not eating for the majority of a year, and recently we had claims that a young sant who we all know of developed cancer and without any medical help the cancer itself has gone, this cancer however did develop under no medical diagnosis, and at a time when this young sant was accused of wearing a kalgi accepting gifts and allowing misguided sangat to do matha tekhna to him, so very questionable) these acts are not moral in any way shape or form, you are not appeasing anybody these are usless as our Gurus told us these acts don't mean anything, hence the denouncing of pilgrimages, fasts, mysticism and miracles within our material world and the need to not have attachment to these. So lets agree, Brahmgiani can not be applied in the context used as shown to humans among us such as these modern day luxurious Derewale Sants, first you said they need money for projects, now there is no problem with them obtaining maya.

'Teto lavia'

the more one talks uselessly.

'Baho bhekh kia dehi dukh dia'

The more one wears religious robes, the more pain he causes his body.

'Saho ve jia apna kia'

O my soul, you must endure the consequences of your own actions.

Is this not again directing us to stay away from not understanding Bani just chanting it, wearing robes (as these rich sants who won't feel the recession are) and does this quote from Guru Maharaj ji again tell us we are judged upon our deeds, whether we are moral or immoral. Veer ji you may not agree with me personally, but this is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj saying this not me, and I'm sure to some extent you do feel it is our duty as Sikhs to abide by these ways set out by Guru ji, if we are not and we live in the doubt that maybe we could apply terms to these humans (which Bani does go against) then how much can we learn, are we not neglecting Maharaj ji by avoiding having to understand Gurbani. My primary issue is the fact that these Sants do incorrect parchaar, they interpret and translate Guru Maharaj ji's words incorrectly and those such as the young one, Ranjit singh in fact rarely will tell you much about our Gurus. Sangat Ji we need to keep clear from paaps hence me posting about this these people can not be applied on the level of being Brahmgianis, for many years sangat claimed a great sant had supernatural powers, however since accusations of Sexual abuse the sant is now very quiet and stopped his parchar, surely if he had nothing to hide and was truthful he should have carried out his parchaar. This was an issue well documented in the website panthic.org, they do great seva for the Gursikh community.

Therefore it is not the point that this title 'sant' has just appeared in front of this Bhai's name, it has appeared there because somebody is misinterpreting the message of Bani and DOES actually believe the characteristics of a Sant make this person one, however it is debatable whether these people who put titles in front of their leaders names have read Bani to fully understand what a sant is, im not doubting the existance of Sants in the past, all I'm saying is how come they were nothing like the rich, and very luxurious lifestyled sants that we know of today, with huge beautiful dere and sangats flocking to them to do their darshan, this isn't Sikhi at all!

I do not wish to offend anybody's views I understand if one person follows something all their life it hard to think out of the box once that routine is in place, in their eyes nobody should ever question their Sant, and I'm not taking anything away from them I still say these Bhais have done great Seva and have been good GurSikhs (some of them) but they are not Sants, because we're not the ones who should judge, a Sant would consider himself the dust of Sangat's shoes the lower of low, and the Guru the highest of highest. Even Bani says this. I respect your views veer ji, and thank you for your response and respecting mine, I do not wish to offend you and if I have bhul chuk maaf karna because that is no my intention, I see you as my fellow brother and respect your views but do not agree with them.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee I cant go into much detail now but ill try to respond fully later today jaa kaloo. Just in sankep ill try to respond.

firstly Im not saying you dont need gian. Secondaly I disagree with what you call gian and how you interprete gurbani which is just a copy and paste from Sikhi to the max. But even if it is a copy and paste try to look deeper into the shabad.

You mention Bhramgianis and sants and to be honest I dont know where your going in your first paragraph. But this veechar is something I dont like to get into. I dont fully understand it myself. However the various arth ive looked at on bhramgiani, ive concluded its an avasta which a brahmgiani can explain.

The shabad from Sri Asa Dee vaar is incomplete, you missed out the first line. I also disagree your arth of the shabad. The following is from Guru GRanth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh jee:

'Likh Likh Pariaa. tita karia' However much (vidya) a person writes and reads; He has maan (pride) for his vidya (therefore it is not necessary that vidya must be needed to reach parmatmas daar.

Why did you miss the first line out of shabad? this line is directly referring to those who put emphasis of vidya and gian like yourself. The whole shabad in referring to hankar. A person has hankar of going to teeraths, wearing religious bana, vidya, gian etc, but guru jee says at the end:

Satgur bheti, so sukh payai. Har ka naam man vaisai. Nanak nadar Kari soo payai. Aas andisai ti nehkewal, houmai shabad jalai.

Without naam in the heart and guru jee showing nadar on us, sukh nahee milda. Guru Dee shabad dee naal asaa ati phikar, ati hauami is burnt away.

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0467.html

I also suggest you read bhai Vir Singh jees translation which is quite deep.

End of day veer jee when people read gurbani which does sifat of Sants why would they listen to your adivce telling them not to meet sants? Sant Jana mill payai, rasana naam bhana. (barahmaah). Veer jee take the adivce you are giving others and follow what gurbani says rather than complaining about those who do darshan of sants. If you can do a better job than those sants then do it.

As for miracles etc. There are many shabads which refer to these happening in guru jees life and other shabads aswell. the following are examples (ill give one pangti so you can look up the shabad yourself:

Satgur meri mar jeevali.

Ganga kee lehar mere tutee janjeer.

Sulhee tee narayan raakh

Sach kee bani nanak akhai (the line: avaan attatavi, jaan sutanvai)

Karaj satgur aap suhvaria (referring to Akal purakh protecting guru Hargobind Sahib. Read the miracles related to those who tried to kill Guru Hargobind jee when they were a child)

har jug jug bhagat upaiya, bhej rakhda ayaa ram ram rajai.

[Guest confusingh]

Confu singh,

How do you like below

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥:

Jo praanee Govind dhiyaavai. Parhiyaa anparhiyaa param gait paavai:

That mortal who meditates on God, whether educated or uneducated,

obtains the state of supreme realization

Ang 197,SGGS

I do not say that formal education is bad but has little relevance for God realization.

Yes I agree...

I don't understand what point you are trying to make, I never said if one does not obtain formal education they cannot be enlightened of Waheguru, I said that we need both NAAM JAPNA and GIAN from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in order to be able to understand the message of Gurbani.

[Budda Dal]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I agree with confu singh ji.

It is all about learning, understanding and implementing teachings of Gurbani in our lives. We must read all of our Gurbani and other literature to take guidance. We have Aad Guru Darbar, Sri Dasam Guru Darbar, Sri Sarabloh Guru Darbar and Ugardanti to learn from. We must read these granths and implement their teachings. Sarabloh Guru Darbar is for Amritdhari Khalsas only though. Other than that, we have Panth Parkash, Sooraj Parkash, Mehma Parkash, Gurbilaas Paatshahi 6, Gurbilaas Paatshahi 10 and other historical granths to study from. We are ignoring our historical granths and not studying them. That is why we have so many divisions in Panth. We must read out puratan granths and gain knowledge.

www.srigranth.org

www.sridasam.org

I urge sangat to start visiting above websites and start learning aarths of Gurbani. All the nihung singhs in Budda Dal focus on reading bani and understanding aarths. Well, some have become lazy though.

[Kaljug Singh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I agree with confu singh ji.

It is all about learning, understanding and implementing teachings of Gurbani in our lives. We must read all of our Gurbani and other literature to take guidance. We have Aad Guru Darbar, Sri Dasam Guru Darbar, Sri Sarabloh Guru Darbar and Ugardanti to learn from. We must read these granths and implement their teachings. Sarabloh Guru Darbar is for Amritdhari Khalsas only though. Other than that, we have Panth Parkash, Sooraj Parkash, Mehma Parkash, Gurbilaas Paatshahi 6, Gurbilaas Paatshahi 10 and other historical granths to study from. We are ignoring our historical granths and not studying them. That is why we have so many divisions in Panth. We must read out puratan granths and gain knowledge.

www.srigranth.org

www.sridasam.org

I urge sangat to start visiting above websites and start learning aarths of Gurbani. All the nihung singhs in Budda Dal focus on reading bani and understanding aarths. Well, some have become lazy though.

Fateh!

That was not his original point. I doubt that anyone here disagrees that knowledge is a good thing. I suggest that you read the thread from the beginning and tell us whether you also agree with his beliefs on the non-existence of siddhis, that sants do not exist, that Baba Deep Singh did not fight with his head in his hand after he was decapitated (because it is impossible according to science), that Nihang aarti maryada is anti-Sikh, and that we should support a radio station that does nindiya of mahapurush and dasam bani.

K.

[SunSingh]

Confusingh ji, I invite you to read the following series of articles in its entirety. It proves using gurbani that sants do exist:

http://khojee.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/vic...-dharm-summary/