Punjab Radio

[ghorandhar]

Firstly, Kaljug Singh I would like to apologise if in any way I seemed aggressive or unfriendly, as I've said many times I see you an all other Sikhs who stand united under the Nishan Sahib and follow the hukam of Guru ji as my fellow brothers and sisters, I wish not argue with you but rather debate, and I hope you can take the time to just give my opinions a thought, and respectfully allow me the chance to debate, as I said I see all Sikhs as my brothers and sisters (its our rehat maryada to do so) and I do not see us as from different faiths, rather just different interpretations.

In regards to quotes and shabads; It is only with correct interpretation, if we understand the language and its context when written by Guru ji and other Bhagats, I am stating fact, it was derived from Sat. and Guru Gobind Singh Ji knew several languages so there are no doubts in anybodys mind that all words used were intentional. I recently spoke to a professor of south asian lingustics from Bristol University, this was again confirmed, just before I said this on this forum, let me be more precise, I understand the term Sant is used in plural and singular form, put this in context, in which we use the shabad 'jhooti dekhi preet jagat mein' for our Antim Sanskar, we are advised to not go towards emotional attachment as this life is not forever and is not 'real' (kaljug singh; this is meant in terms of mukti, which is the only truth, accepted generally by most Sikhs). My suggestion is to be contextual, these quotes all speak of those who ARE the definitions of Sat/ Sant... which is somebody who has obtained Mukti and has Waheguru's grace, this is not possible in human form, so it speaks of something which we cannot be so conclusive about as to say that this person should be named Sant and this one Bhai.

My point is firstly the correct interpretation of Sant, is that it is derived from Sat (the Sanskrit term) and in regards to the human form claim... Waheguru is not in human form, there are many things which are not in human form, Mukti is the meeting of Sants their wisdom is obtained through a Gursikh life, in which the return is Mukti, I believe there is Waheguru's presence amongst Sangat, and Waheguru is present in everybody, this doesn't mean there is a part of our body called Waheguru, it means it is internal is within our soul which is the tool with which we attain Mukti, do bad things, bad things will happen in a later life, do good things, good things will happen. Veer Ji there are also clear shabads which I will edit on this post once I get the time, which tell us that Waheguru is amongst and within us all, therefore it would be contradictory to say that 'Sants' obtain more of Waheguru's kirpa than anybody else, as in a Sikh's eyes Akal Purakh should not be seen as discriminatory.

Once again, I understand people have different beliefs on this issue, I however do not wish to ignore facts and context when reading Bani as this will then lead one to make a judgement which isn't in light of all information. I did not say AKJ are an authority figure for me, they are not at all, but I do agree with their view on 'Sant'.

Also, one needs to understand that das is not saying some of these people who incorrectly use the title of 'Sant' are not good people, they are some great Gursikhs and I myself say they have done some great seva for the panth, but 'Sant' shouldn't be used as a title as it is within other faiths, as this is not in keeping with the basic principles of Sikhi.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Veer jee you are not willing to go into the shabads I mentioned. There was three shabads and you ignored all 3.

Veer jee if you read Jap jee sahib you will see 5 khand. Im sorry but these avasta exist and if you want to call it discrimination thats up to you. People go through these stages to reach Waheguru and you might think its more or less kirpa but end of the day this is guru jees updesh.

Veer jee have you not hear of the concept of jeevan mukat?

Jeevan Mukat har pavai sohe. Ang 161.

Jeevan Mukat Gurmukh kee hoe. Ang 232.

Jeevan Mukat is in gurbani over 20 times. However you are saying its not possible in human form. Again benti hai, Gurbani di shabad paar.

If you looked at the shabads i referred to, you would not say a sant cannot be human form. If a sant cannot be human form then how can we meet them? why does guru jee in Barahmaah tell us meet them? IF sant means waheguru then why is bhagat kabir jee in the shabad i mentioned telling God to go to the sadh sangat? (kahit kabir sunhoo ri santoo, sadh sangat tar jaheenga). What you are saying is madness.

Veer jee ill add another shabad to the 3 I previously referrred to because you mentioned Guru Gobind Singh jee:

Deen kee pritpalak rai nit, sant ubar ghanee man gar rai. (akal Ustat). If a sant is not in human form, what does this shabad mean? your principle of Sant meaning Sat does not make sense. This whole shabad is referring to human form. Have alook your self, it comes after the Swayaai we read in the morning.

Veer Jee, Bhai Vir singh jee and Prof Sahib Singh jee are both scholars of Sanskrit. Again I ask you to read what they say. Bhai Kahn Singh jee Nabha in his mahan Kosh also says the same thing (page 242). They all say sant is from sanskrit and i didnt say it was not. However they dont say sat. They all say its from Shaant. It means Shant, avasta, Vidhvaan, parmatma naal joria.

Veer jee im not saying Waheguru is not within us. (antar vasai na bahar jai, Raag Suhi) However these avasta exist and until you wish to discuss gurbani you can continue to write what ever you wish, however its your mat and not gurmat.

[Kaljug Singh]

Fateh!

Confusingh,

I accept your apology, but there is no need for it. Just try to listen to what your Gursikh brothers like SunSingh are saying, in particular meditate on the bani they are quoting you, don't just respond instantly with a refutation because the panktis are not in accord with your beliefs. If you do the latter, you will completely miss the point of what they are trying to tell you.

At the end of the day, you gain nothing debating points from Sri Guru Granth Sahib as it not a mere holy book like the Bible - it is our Living Guru. Every akhar and every pankti is a direct communication from Akal Purakh to your soul, they are not words you can quote and interpret for everybody else because everybody has a different avastha, and the same pankti will reveal a whole new level of meaning to you when your avastha changes as a result of the bhagti and simran that you do.

Sikhi teaches that everyone is equal; in other words, you do not have to be born a certain caste to gain enlightenment. But that doesn't mean that everyone is the same. I probably understand more mathematics than you because that's what I do, but I will never be at the level of a great natural mathematician like Srinivasa Ramanujan. In a similar way, some people have done more naam abhyaas in this life and former lives, and are at a totally different level to us. However, we will eventually reach the same level of God-realisation as them, but it might not happen in this lifetime.

Now, your experience (through which you, me and everybody else interpret the message of the Guru Granth) may teach you that Sants in human form do not exist and that all people who have that title attached to their names may be fakes and conmen, but my experience teaches me otherwise. I believe that, if you continue to do sangat of Gursikhs, you will meet a real one one day.

The same can be said of siddhis. I don't claim any powers, but the reason that you find Gursikhs arguing with you about the panktis in bani regarding their existence, is because they have either experienced them themselves or know some other Gursikh who has. As I said earlier, they come naturally (much like large muscles come naturally from lifting heavy objects) but they only give you hankaar if you start making use of them. You can lift weights to be stronger than the next person but be humble at the same time, or you can develop ego as a result of the large muscles that come about as a side-effect of strength training and misuse your size to intimidate others. Do you understand?

You may want to do some research on the concept of jivanmukhti in Sikhi. We are told to obtain this while we have the blessing and advantage of being in human form. There is a katha somewhere on this site in which Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale discusses this issue (I believe you can find them on this site).

Regards,

K.

[Puraatan]

please feel free to read the entire series of posts i have linked to above. and then refute all of that, using Gurbani, if you can.

EXACTLY! The missionary-one-a-be-scholars have no idea how to do proper vichar with Gursikhs like you PURAATAN STYLE!

NO REAL SIKH SHOULD LISTEN TO PUNJAB RADIO IF THEY TRULY CARE FOR THE PANTH AND HAVE PYAR FOR GURU JI!!!

BOYCOTT THE ANTI-PANTHIC PUNJAB RADIO!