Anyone With Knowledge - Please Help

[Khalsa04]

I was asked this by a muslim bibi:

"you got me thinking... firstly about god creating us perfect, well you kinda contadicted yourself, you said we are created perfect but when reincarnated we may not be. we either are or aren't????

Secondly the statement "men and women are equal" i completely disagree... stating the obvious most men have knobs (with or without forskin lol) and women (excluding transexuals) obviously don't, equal?? no. Women give birth men on the other hand don't, equal no??? etc etc we are not equal biologically so that statement is a major FLAW im afraid to say.

of course we should be equal in our faith to god, convenant of his duties and duties to mankind but thats where it ends. if we are equal then why are there 10 male gurus?? or is there one woman aswell? but hey still no equality.

ps once again thank you for your time"

MY REPLY:

As I said previously, its a hard concept to grasp and only people with a high level of spirituality can understand it, the soul is created perfect but due to positive and negative actions it must go through the cycle of life and death and rebirth.. At the end of the day if we go by the islamic viewpoint, those before islam have no chance because they couldnt be saved?!

Razia that was a ridiculous comment to make, men and women are equal in the sense that we are all human and we are all God's children.. Men and women have different biological bodily functions but that doesnt mean a woman is inferior to a man or a man is superior to a woman.. Fix up, Sikhs believe in 100% equality regardless of caste, colour, creed, gender, etc!

CAN SOMEBODY ANSWER THE MUSLIM BIBI'S QUESTION WITH SOME QUOTES FROM GURBANI BECAUSE IM NOT THAT KNOWLEDGEABLE ON SIKHI, SO ANY HELP WOULD BE BRILLIANT!

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA

WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[Papi]

She's right, men and women aren't equal. Women are higher than men simply by the fact that they give birth to men (and women too of course).

We are created perfect. The imperfections are what makes us perfect.

[Khalsa04]

Nice post tubelight

but I wanted some quotes from Gurbani to show that we are held in the same regard and to basically refute her points.

Thanks

[Papi]

Here you go:

mÚ 1 ]

ma 1 ||

First Mehla:

BMif jMmIAY BMif inMmIAY BMif mMgxu vIAwhu ]

bha(n)dd ja(n)meeai bha(n)dd ni(n)meeai bha(n)dd ma(n)gan veeaahu ||

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

BMfhu hovY dosqI BMfhu clY rwhu ]

bha(n)ddahu hovai dhosathee bha(n)ddahu chalai raahu ||

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

BMfu muAw BMfu BwlIAY BMif hovY bMDwnu ]

bha(n)dd muaa bha(n)dd bhaaleeai bha(n)dd hovai ba(n)dhhaan ||

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

so ikau mMdw AwKIAY ijqu jMmih rwjwn ]

so kio ma(n)dhaa aakheeai jith ja(n)mehi raajaan ||

So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

BMfhu hI BMfu aUpjY BMfY bwJu n koie ]

bha(n)ddahu hee bha(n)dd oopajai bha(n)ddai baajh n koe ||

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

nwnk BMfY bwhrw eyko scw soie ]

naanak bha(n)ddai baaharaa eaeko sachaa soe ||

O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

============================

sB joiq qyrI jgjIvnw qU Git Git hir rMg rMgnw ]

sabh joth thaeree jagajeevanaa thoo ghatt ghatt har ra(n)g ra(n)ganaa ||

You are the Light of all, the Life of the World; You imbue each and every heart with Your Love.

[Khalsa04]

Bro ive got that quote, I meant something that answers the above questions asked by the bibi..

Something directly related to the point..

Thanks for your replies

[Harjeet.Singh]

When we say men and women are equal, it means that we are the same in status. Neither is more superior or inferior, we are to be treated the same. E.g man shouldn't be treated like a king a woman gets treated like a slave. We are all to be treated with the same respect, that is what equality in Sikhi is. It doesn't mean we are all exactly the same, pyschically and mentally. Because we are different in those two aspects, pyschically women and men differ, and mentally women and men think different, and have different patterns in their brain waves. The soul however is equal, that is genderless. That is the driving force of the mind and body. So when we say equal we mean, equal as in ranking. It doesn't mean we are all the same. Otherwise why would Guru Gobind Singh give us The names Singh and Kaur. We were ment to be different, but nobody should be treated as inferior, that is how we are equal, in status.

[Mehtab Singh]

Disclaimer: I am not a scholar on Gurbani, and not a spiritually enlightened Gurmukh either. I am going to TRY to answer based ONLY on grammar, because I am not an intellectual on Gurmat either.

"you got me thinking... firstly about god creating us perfect, well you kinda contadicted yourself, you said we are created perfect but when reincarnated we may not be. we either are or aren't????

If someone believes in Akal Purakh, believes that Akal Purakh is All Perfect, they should also believe that whatever Akal Purakh creates has got to be perfect. Each one of us is perfect in the way we have been made, because we are made by the One who is All Perfect. In the next life, even if some soul was born in the jooni of an insect, then that jooni is perfect for them based on their karams. Thus we are always made perfect based on our karams and His kirpa. There is one jot in all beings, and the problem here is that Bibi Razia is viewing Akal Purakh's creation on an outward superficial surface based on their external appearance, thereby considering that humans are better than insects just because they are humans. The truth is that humans are better indeed, but only because we have the Akal Purakh-given capabiity to realize Vaheguru in this jooni. The other reason is that Bibi Razia being a Muslim doesn't believe in re-birth, and so the details that Gurbani goes into about the soul are not going to make any sense to her. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj has blessed us with detailed accounts of what the soul goes through, and what jooniya we can have to go through.

Bhagat Trilochan Ji in Raag Gujri on Ang 526

gUjrI ]

goojaree ||

Goojaree:

AMiq kwil jo lCmI ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

a(n)th kaal jo lashhamee simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

srp join vil vil AauqrY ]1]

sarap jon val val aoutharai ||1||

shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

ArI bweI goibd nwmu miq bIsrY ] rhwau ]

aree baaee gobidh naam math beesarai || rehaao ||

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

AMiq kwil jo iesqRI ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

a(n)th kaal jo eisathree simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

bysvw join vil vil AauqrY ]2]

baesavaa jon val val aoutharai ||2||

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

AMiq kwil jo liVky ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

a(n)th kaal jo larrikae simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

sUkr join vil vil AauqrY ]3]

sookar jon val val aoutharai ||3||

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

AMiq kwil jo mMdr ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

a(n)th kaal jo ma(n)dhar simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

pRyq join vil vil AauqrY ]4]

praeth jon val val aoutharai ||4||

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||

AMiq kwil nwrwiexu ismrY AYsI icMqw mih jy mrY ]

a(n)th kaal naaraaein simarai aisee chi(n)thaa mehi jae marai ||

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

bdiq iqlocnu qy nr mukqw pIqMbru vw ky irdY bsY ]5]2]

badhath thilochan thae nar mukathaa peetha(n)bar vaa kae ridhai basai ||5||2||

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

Guru Amar Daas Ji in Siree Raag on Ang 88

slok mÚ 3 ]

salok ma 3 ||

Salok, Third Mehla:

siqguru ijnI n syivE sbid n kIqo vIcwru ]

sathigur jinee n saeviou sabadh n keetho veechaar ||

Those who do not serve the True Guru, and who do not contemplate the Word of the Shabad

AMqir igAwnu n AwieE imrqku hY sMswir ]

a(n)thar giaan n aaeiou mirathak hai sa(n)saar ||

-spiritual wisdom does not enter into their hearts; they are like dead bodies in the world.

lK caurwsIh Pyru pieAw mir jMmY hoie KuAwru ]

lakh chouraaseeh faer paeiaa mar ja(n)mai hoe khuaar ||

They go through the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations, and they are ruined through death and rebirth.

siqgur kI syvw so kry ijs no Awip krwey soie ]

sathigur kee saevaa so karae jis no aap karaaeae soe ||

He alone serves the True Guru, whom the Lord Himself inspires to do so.

siqgur ivic nwmu inDwnu hY krim prwpiq hoie ]

sathigur vich naam nidhhaan hai karam paraapath hoe ||

The Treasure of the Naam is within the True Guru; by His Grace, it is obtained.

sic rqy gur sbd isau iqn scI sdw ilv hoie ]

sach rathae gur sabadh sio thin sachee sadhaa liv hoe ||

Those who are truly attuned to the Word of the Guru's Shabad-their love is forever True.

nwnk ijs no myly n ivCuVY shij smwvY soie ]1]

naanak jis no maelae n vishhurrai sehaj samaavai soe ||1||

O Nanak, those who are united with Him shall not be separated again. They merge imperceptibly into God. ||1||

Secondly the statement "men and women are equal" i completely disagree... stating the obvious most men have knobs (with or without forskin lol) and women (excluding transexuals) obviously don't, equal?? no. Women give birth men on the other hand don't, equal no??? etc etc we are not equal biologically so that statement is a major FLAW im afraid to say.

Once again, she is viewing things from an outward sperficial surface. Just because I don't look 100% exactly like my father or brother doesn't mean I am not related to them by blood. Moreover, if men and women were exactly the same, we would need another method of procreation. We can't help the biological differences between men and women, but what Sikhi teaches is to remove the social and religious differences.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Ang 473

mÚ 1 ]

ma 1 ||

First Mehla:

BMif jMmIAY BMif inMmIAY BMif mMgxu vIAwhu ]

bha(n)dd ja(n)meeai bha(n)dd ni(n)meeai bha(n)dd ma(n)gan veeaahu ||

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

BMfhu hovY dosqI BMfhu clY rwhu ]

bha(n)ddahu hovai dhosathee bha(n)ddahu chalai raahu ||

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

BMfu muAw BMfu BwlIAY BMif hovY bMDwnu ]

bha(n)dd muaa bha(n)dd bhaaleeai bha(n)dd hovai ba(n)dhhaan ||

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

so ikau mMdw AwKIAY ijqu jMmih rwjwn ]

so kio ma(n)dhaa aakheeai jith ja(n)mehi raajaan ||

So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

BMfhu hI BMfu aUpjY BMfY bwJu n koie ]

bha(n)ddahu hee bha(n)dd oopajai bha(n)ddai baajh n koe ||

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

nwnk BMfY bwhrw eyko scw soie ]

naanak bha(n)ddai baaharaa eaeko sachaa soe ||

O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

ijqu muiK sdw swlwhIAY Bwgw rqI cwir ]

jith mukh sadhaa saalaaheeai bhaagaa rathee chaar ||

That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.

nwnk qy muK aUjly iqqu scY drbwir ]2]

naanak thae mukh oojalae thith sachai dharabaar ||2||

O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||2||

of course we should be equal in our faith to god, convenant of his duties and duties to mankind but thats where it ends. if we are equal then why are there 10 male gurus?? or is there one woman aswell? but hey still no equality.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=370571

Our Gurus came at a time when women and so-called lower castes were oppressed. One might wonder why were the Gurus born into so-called high caste Kshatriya families. Gurbani speaks strongly against castes and stresses the equality of genders. Imagine if our Gurus were born into so-called lower castes, or if any of the Gurus were women. Would this message have such a strong impact? Would anyone bother listening to a "lower caste" preaching against caste? Would anyone bother to care about a woman preaching gender equality? But no! Here we had MEN of "HIGHER" castes spreading the message of gender equality and condemning the caste system. This was a shock for the rotten society of those times and was a massive revolution in itself, and thus it took India by storm and hit the minds of everyone like a thunderbolt. People were like "THESE MEN ARE SPREADING THE NOTION THAT GENDERS ARE EQUAL"..."THESE HIGH CASTE KSHATRIYAS ARE SPREADING THE MESSAGE OF THE USELESSNESS OF THE CASTE SYSTEM". This had a profound effect on the psyche of all classes (castes) of Indians. The so-called lower castes who had been suppressed saw hope, and the fanatical higher castes also woke up to reality. Those woman oppressing men got a jolt when they saw these MEN speak out against the idea of considering women as inferior or impure. High castes spoke against castes. Men spoke in favor of respecting women. This was something totally new and unheard of. The message of gender equality and equality of all mankind might not have had such a profound impact if our Gurus were women or from so-called lower castes.

Read more replies on http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...654&hl=guru

[shamsher]

"The imperfections are what makes us perfect. "

Speechless....it gets better and better...

[humkire]

I was asked this by a muslim bibi:

"you got me thinking... firstly about god creating us perfect, well you kinda contadicted yourself, you said we are created perfect but when reincarnated we may not be. we either are or aren't????

Secondly the statement "men and women are equal" i completely disagree... stating the obvious most men have knobs (with or without forskin lol) and women (excluding transexuals) obviously don't, equal?? no. Women give birth men on the other hand don't, equal no??? etc etc we are not equal biologically so that statement is a major FLAW im afraid to say.

of course we should be equal in our faith to god, convenant of his duties and duties to mankind but thats where it ends. if we are equal then why are there 10 male gurus?? or is there one woman aswell? but hey still no equality.

ps once again thank you for your time"

MY REPLY:

As I said previously, its a hard concept to grasp and only people with a high level of spirituality can understand it, the soul is created perfect but due to positive and negative actions it must go through the cycle of life and death and rebirth.. At the end of the day if we go by the islamic viewpoint, those before islam have no chance because they couldnt be saved?!

Razia that was a ridiculous comment to make, men and women are equal in the sense that we are all human and we are all God's children.. Men and women have different biological bodily functions but that doesnt mean a woman is inferior to a man or a man is superior to a woman.. Fix up, Sikhs believe in 100% equality regardless of caste, colour, creed, gender, etc!

CAN SOMEBODY ANSWER THE MUSLIM BIBI'S QUESTION WITH SOME QUOTES FROM GURBANI BECAUSE IM NOT THAT KNOWLEDGEABLE ON SIKHI, SO ANY HELP WOULD BE BRILLIANT!

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA

WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Your friend is using false arguments to prove that sikhism is wrong in supporting the theory or reincarnation and the equality of women .The following would be my rebuttal;

1)God is perfect ,but that does not place the onus on Him to create us or the entire creation perfect. The shabad beginning with 'hum mehle tum ujal karte ,hum nirgun tu data ''emphasises this point .This immediately checkmates the root of your m8s argument ,hence annuling the need to explain the seeming irrationality of reincarnation ,preceding the creation of the perfect human .Her argument is flawed from the point of view of Islamic theology too because only God is perfect .Imam Maliki quotes prophet mohamad to have said that he was sent to perfect the noble moral qualities of the human implying that humans are imperfect .According to gurmat ,in the shabad '''satgur aeo saran tuhari ........'',this imperfection is cured by surrender to GURU after various incarnations through ''lekha chod alekheh chuteh ,hum nirgun leo obari''.The emphasis on life is not on the question of man's perfection/imperfection but on the need to live according to God's Hukum in sikhism or God's ''Qadar ''according to islamic theology as propounded by Imam Shafee(whom your m8 will kno about).Both of these concepts again negate the need to consider reincarnation as an irrational basis and cause of existence as they do not conflict with the concept of reincarnation .

2)As to her second point ,your friend seems to be mixing up the 2 separate issues of a)differences in male/female physiology and psychology with b)the issue of of man and woman to be considered equal partners at a societal level in order to falsely prove that sikhism is wrong about women being equal to men .Ask her to worry about a great debate that has opened up among current muslim theologians/scholars about the necessity of women to wear the veil to be subservient to men ,and a whole amount of other women rights related issues including inheritance rights,religous and political leadership , etc etc ----especially between liberal ,moderate and conservative muslim scholars .Ask her if she is aware of how questions are being raised about the validity of sticking to the order that in sunni islam ,no further debate on these issues apart from the interpretations of the 4 great imams of the past ,is being requestioned .

Also tell her that according to Islam people of the books (Al -Kitab ) such as sikhs ,jews and christians are not to be attempted to be converted ,as the original purpose of mohamad was to give the nomadic scattered arab tribes a Kitab ,to teach them about Tauhid and to unify them .Also remind her that the idea that mohamad was the last prophet ,was not at the heart of mohamad's revealations but only became popular during the time of the 4 Rashidun caliphs ,hence not negating the concept of Guru Nanak as a nabi or prophet of God .

[Bijla Singh]

Here is the article refuting their arguments about women not being equal to men - http://www.searchsikhism.com/blind.html