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Hajara ji,

Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /puranas and also the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

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Hajara ji,

   Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /puranas a

nd also the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

no problemoh thank you for reading my post. Its good you have qouted one out of many shabads in guru granth sahib on krishna and ram. I would like to clarify my position i am not here to merge sikhi to hindus , i mann sikhi in its gurmat form, im disgusted with rss zeolots. However there are numerous qoutes missed listed below on the subject of ram and krishna as u previously stated some which reduce these dieties to mere dust in others they are talked about in the following context -

r>1)

This Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390

sqjuig qY mwixE CilE bil bwvn BwieE ]

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

qRyqY qY mwixE rwmu rGuvMsu khwieE ]

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuva(n)s kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

duAwpuir ik®sn murwir kMsu ikrqwrQu kIE ]

dhuaapur kirasan muraar ka(n)s kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

augRsYx kau rwju ABY Bgqh jn dIE ]

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

kiljuig pRmwxu nwnk guru AMgdu Amru khwieE ]

kalijug pramaan naanak gur a(n)gadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sRI gurU rwju Aibclu Atlu Awid puriK PurmwieE ]7]

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command oThis Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390

2)This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 338

lakh chouraaseeh jeea jon mehi bhramath na(n)dh bahu thhaako rae ||

Wandering through 8.4 million incarnations, Krishna's father Nand was totally exhausted.

bhagath haeth avathaar leeou hai bhaag baddo bapuraa ko rae ||1||

Because of his devotion, Krishna was incarnated in his home; how great was the good

fortune of this poor man!

3)This Shabad is by Bhagat Naam Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 345

thaareelae ganikaa bin roop kubijaa biaadhh ajaamal thaareealae ||

You saved the prostitute, and the ugly hunch-back; You helped the hunter and Ajaamal swim across as well.

charan badhhik jan thaeoo mukath bheae ||

The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.

4)This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 1040

guramath kirasan govaradhhan dhhaarae ||

Through the Guru's Teachings, Krishna lifted up the mountain of Govardhan.

guramath saaeir paahan thaarae ||

Through the Guru's Teachings, Rama floated stones across the ocean.

5)This Shabad is by Guru Raam Daas Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 165

kirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavaikirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavai ||

Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5780

7)This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

AweI pwpix pUqnW duhIN QxIN ivhu lwie vhylI]

aaee paapan poothanaa(n) dhuhee(n) thhanee(n) vihu laae vehaelee||

The ill-reputed Putana applied poison on both of her .

Awie bYTI prvwr ivc nyhuM lwei nvhwix nvylI]

aae bait(h)ee paravaar vich naehu(n) laaea inavehaan navaelee||

She came to the family (of Nand) and started to express her newfound love for the family.

kuCV ley goibMd rwie kir cytk cqurMg mhylI]

kushharr leae gobi(n)dh raae kar chaettak chathura(n)g mehaelee||

Through her clever deception, she lifted Krishna in her lap.

mohx mOmy pwieEn bwhr AweI grb ghylI]

mohan maamae paaeioun baahar aaee garab gehaelee||

With great pride she pressed her . in the mouth of Krishna and came out.

dyh vDwie aucwienu iqh cirAwr nwr ATKylI]

dhaeh vadhhaae ouchaaein thih chariaar naar at(h)akhaelee||

Now she expanded her body to a great extent.

iqh loAW dw Bwr dy cMmiVAw gl hoie duhylI]

thih loaaa(n) dhaa bhaar dhae cha(n)marriaa gal hoe dhuhaelee||

Krishna also becoming the full weight of the three worlds hung from and stuck to her neck.

Kwie pCwV phwV vWg jwie peI EjwV DkylI]

khaae pashhaarr pehaarr vaa(n)g jaae pee oujaarr dhhakaelee||

Getting unconscious, and like a mountain she fell down into the forest.

kIqI mwaU qul shylI ]òò]

keethee maaoo thul sehaelee ||aa||

Krishna liberated her at last and gave her status of equal to his mother’s friend.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5781

9)This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 10

jwie suqw prBws ivc gofy auqy pYr pswry]

jaae suthaa parabhaas vich goddae outhae pair pasaarae||

At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee.

crx kml ivc pdm hY iJliml JlkY vWgI qwry]

charan kamal vich padham hai jhilamil jhalakai vaa(n)gee thaarae||

The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

b`Dk AwXw Bwldw imrgY jwx bwx lY mwry]

baadhhak aayaa bhaaladhaa miragai jaan baan lai maarae||

A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

drSn ifTosu jwiekY krn plwv krY pUkw

ry]

dharashan ddit(h)os jaaeikai karan palaav karai pookaarae||

As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

gl ivc lIqw ikRSn jI Avgux kIqy hr n icqwry]

gal vich leethaa krishan jee avagun keethae har n chithaarae||

Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

kr ikrpw sMqoiKAw piqq auDwrx ibrD bIcwry]

kar kirapaa sa(n)thokhiaa pathith oudhhaaran biradhh beechaarae||

Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

kar kirapaa sa(n)thokhiaa pathith oudhhaaran biradhh beechaarae||

Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

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Guest mehtab

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Thanks a lot for the quotes hajara veer ^_^ . i m more than sure Guruji never mocked or insulted any hindu gods/goddesses although He did encourage people to worship only the Akal Purkh rather than these dieties. Its funny how people misunderstand Gurbani and sometimes even twist the meaning to justify something they advocate. And as for me questioning the authenticity of a site run by muslims, 1stly, i'd put my faith in Gurbani rather than some individual claiming to know it all, and secondly, someone referring a website like "Why I Chose Sikhism" to bring out the truth about islam and then taking refuge in a site made by muslims in order to diss hinduism is hardcore hypocrisy i think. Funny how someone doesnt hesitate to label muslims as something, and doesnt hesitate to stand behind them when it comes to mocking hindus. A Sikh stands for and fights for truth no matter what the religion of the oppressor or oppressed. i bet none of the Singhs of the past had such a politician like and double sided hypocritical nature.

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Hajara ji,

  Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /pur

anas and also the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

teeek ah i get what ur saying i have seen countless ambedkar dalit sena writings but gurbani comes first. The chabbi of guru granth sahib ji bhai gurdas ji vara tell us what and who krishna and ram was. im not saying worship them thats wrong as the message of gurbani is to praise only God yet the same God from where both dieties got their power. In gurbani in places these dieties are considered dust as you have correctly stated but in other parts they have been given a place but th

e bottom point is not to worship them but at the same time these essays by ambedkar go too far , now try weigh that up with bani. Raja Janak was a saint hes ramas father in law, in one of the ambedkar articles its claimed ram pimped sita, but what does bani say about rama? Bhai Gurdas ji vara also state the past happenings were not myths but real, again give me time i shall produce for u.

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Hajara ji,

Thnx for reminding me about my duty towards Guru sahib.

Heres what Guru Nanak sahib says about Krishna and Ram:

juj mih joir ClI cMdRwvil kwn@ ik®snu jwdmu BieAw ]

juj mehi jor shhalee cha(n)dhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||

In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

pwrjwqu gopI lY AwieAw ibMdRwbn mih rMgu kIAw ]

paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bi(n)dhraaban mehi ra(n)g keeaa ||

He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

*************************************************

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

Dr. Ambedkar was qouted only in the context of his study of Hinduism coz some people refused to believe facts for the simple reason that they appeared on a Muslim website. Even though the names of the vedas/upanishads /puranas and also

the page numbers have been provided. It isnt my intention to discuss Dr. Ambedkar's life history.

But its a shame henah when he along with 60 million chumars came to amritsar to be accepted into sikhi the singh sabha leaders told em "you expect us to give the keys of darbar sahib to choorey and chumars"?

what a shame what have 60 million multiplied to from 1930? 250 million! potential sikhs could have prevented pakistan even forming and keeping lahore in sikh punjab. 3 thirds of pakistan wud have been sikh punjab. pakistan was only formed on numerical votes.

Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism along with his followers and the present Buddhist population in India is less than 10 million. By your logic, it should be 250 million. So wheres the rest of 240 million?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

Saachi Saakhi? of S. Kapur Singh ICS

Around 1935-36, Dr. Ambedkar, the unchallenged leader of the 60 million untouchables in India, openly expressed the desire that all untouchables of India join Sikhism to rid themselves of the thousand of years of serfdom imposed by the caste-system. Hindu leaders like Dr. Munje, President of Hindu Mahasabha, and Pandit Malviya, the eminent Sanatanist Hindu leader were totally agreeable to this plan. Copies of Dr. Ambedkar?s correspondence w

ith these Hindu leaders were regularly brought to the notice of Gandhi. When Gandhi realised that the matter was close to finality, he released the whole correspondence in his newspaper ?Young India? without the permission of any one of them against all norms of civilized behaviour, warning the untouchables that, ?Joining Sikhism like this would permanently condemn them to apostasy from Hinduism.?

After this, Dr. Ambedkar opened a direct dialogue with Sikh leaders to achieve his purpose, and this news spread throughout the country that the untouchables were on the verge of joining Sikhism. This is the time when foundation of Khalsa College, Bombay was laid so that it could function as the centre for the education of the untouchables of Southern India.

Dr. Ambedkar was considered the uncrowned king of the Indian Dalits (untouchables). He was a great nationalist and was an important leader of Indian National Congress. His contributions in framing the Indian Constitution are well known. Before he joined Buddhism, there were hardly any Indian Buddhist left; his followers who joined Buddhism are known as Neo-Buddhists.

Master Tara Singh began his career as a small time Akali worker during Gurdwara Sudhar (Reforms) or Akali Movement of the nineteen twenties, but had soon risen to become the uncrowned king of the Panthic affairs due to his political dexterity. However, before he passed away, he had to retire to political ignominy when, to save his life, he was forced to renege from his vows, declared upon formal ardas, that unless the Govt. of India announced creation of Punjabi Suba (Province), by the day set by him, he would, after a long hunger strike, immolate himself in Agani Kunds which had specially been erected at the Akal Takhat. The GOI never kept the date, nor did the Master ji immolate himself ? but his political life got immolated in the process

When in 1925, at the time of creation of Gurdwara Act, two groups came into being lead by Sardar Bahadur Mehtab Sing

h and Master Tara Singh respectively, Giani Kartar Singh, Master Tara Singh, Ishar Singh Majhail etc., the leaders of ?Akali Party?, found out that the ?educated? amongst the Sikhs, the product of the British education were tied to ?Gentleman?s Conduct? of behaviour and were averse and afraid of physical violence, abusive altercations and snatching or loosing of turbans. The best way to get such people out of the way for good from Sikh congregations, societies, meetings and Panthic service sphere was to expose them to the culture of abusive language and physical violence, which would force these ?educated? spineless persons to immediately wash their hands from the Panth and ?Akali Party?.

?This strategy forced Sardar Bahadur Mehtab Singh to give up ?Akali Party? and retire to his home, forced Baba Kharak Singh away from Panthic affairs, defeated and humiliated S. Amar Singh of ?Shere Punjab? and ultimately forced the Sikh intellectuals and the new educated progressive Sikh youth into the lap of Communism.

Dr. Ambedkar was himself a great strategist. He had understood that in the mid twentieth century, after the British left India, the principles and historical development of Sikhism alone could liberate the untouchables from their downtrodden condition, but could also bring around the predominance of the untouchables all over India for centuries to come. Dr. Ambedkar was not any lesser strategist than Mr. Jinnah and Mahatma Gandhi.

But by 60 million untouchables joining Sikhism, ?Akali Party? would have lost its dominance and monopoly over the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, and Sardar Baldev Singh would have lost his Sikh representation in the Central Government.

?When the ?Akali Party? realised this problem then after deep consultation they unanimously decided to permanently block the entry of Dr. Ambedkar and his 60 million untouchable fellows.

?At this moment, the ?Brain of the Panth?, Giani Kartar Singh suggested that, ?It was not difficult to deal w

ith these educated people. They are not capable of withstanding even the first blow.

?With this background, Master Sujan Singh Sarhali was sent to Bombay to meet Dr. Ambedkar, and he in turn told Dr. Ambedkar plainly that he was a ?Chuhra?, and told him what the Akali Party thought of the moral conduct of his mother, and served him with the ultimatum that either he should join Sikhism within 24 hours or else the Panth would deal sternly with him.

Hearing this pure ?Akali Language?, Dr. Ambedkar made the same decision any other educated person would have made.

?He assured the ?Akali Party? through Master Tara Singh that neither he nor any of his followers had any mind to even come near the Sikhs or Sikhi.

?Thus was saved the ?Panthic Leadership?, as well as the hegemony of Sardar Baldev Singh.

S. Jangbahadur Singh editor of the eminent Sikh weekly, ?Shere Punjab? which was published by the renowned Sikh intellectual and politician S. Amar Singh from Lahore for 20-25 years, and which after him has been regularly publishing from Delhi by his son Jangbahadur Singh, writes on page 99 of the ?Diamond Jubilee Number? (1911-1971) about the reasons of Dr. Ambedkar?s frustration from Sikh circles based on the personal knowledge and evidence of his father:

?On Baisakhi Day of 1939, Dr. Ambedkar participated in the all India Sikh Mission Conference in Amritsar along with his supporters wearing a turban, and to demonstrate his decision to join 60 million untouchables into Sikhism, he made his nephew partake amrit to become a Khalsa Sikh. The delight S. Amar Singh felt at the prospects of increasing the numbers of Sikhs by 60 million within his lifetime can be seen from his writings. But soon Master Tara Singh adopted such policy that Dr. Ambedkar and his untouchable followers would not come near the Sikhs or Sikhism. ? Unfortunately for the Panth, Master Tara Singh developed the apprehension that if Dr. Ambedkar and his untouchable followers became Sikhs, then Dr. Ambedka

r would become the sole leader of Panth and Master Tara Singh would loose his glory. At that time S. Amar Singh wrote in the ?Shere Punjab?, that, ?For the advancement of the Panth of Guru Gobind Singh, who had sacrificed whole of his family over the Khalsa, we should be prepared to sacrifice our

whole families to say nothing of political power or riches.?

In 1936, elections to the Bombay Legislative Assembly were to be held. Considering the Sikhs as his brotherhood, Dr. Ambedkar sent message to Master Tara Singh that he had the chances of becoming the Chief Minister of Bombay State by leading his Party to victory, and asked the Panth in Punjab to extend financial help of twenty five thousand to him. Master Tara Singh found this as a golden opportunity to turn Dr. Ambedkar away from Sikhism and Panth. He came to S. Amar Singh in the Lahore office of ?Shere Punjab? and said, ?Look at this Ambedkar, he is asking money from the Sikhs.? Amar Singh ji replied, ?What are you talking about Master ji? If Dr. Ambedkar were merely looking for money, he could raise crores from Muslims or Christians, why should he turn to Sikhism? He is just asking for a small amount as a gesture of brotherhood. It doesn?t behove of us to suspect his intentions.? Master ji immediately changed his tone, ?I was just afraid that you would oppose me in the All India Sikh Mission if I gave thi

s amount. But now that you have also approved of it, I will send this amount to Dr. Ambedkar tomorrow itself.? S. Amar Singh told him with folded hands, ?Look, don?t procrastinate, in fact send him Rs. 50,000 instead of 25,000.?

?Anyway, Master ji drew the money from the account of All India Sikh Mission, but instead of sending a draft or cheque, gave the whole money to his protégé Master Sujan Singh Sarhali, and sent a message to S. Amar Singh that the money had been sent to Dr. Ambedkar. It came out after the elections that the money was lost in the way and not a penny was let reach Dr. Ambedkar. Instead, to further antagonize D

r. Ambedkar against Sikhism, taunts were thrown his way that he had tried to fleece money from Sikhs.

-- (From the Original in Urdu)?

?This money was neither re-deposited in the account of All India Sikh Mission, nor did it reach Dr. Ambedkar. It came to the uses of Master Sujan Singh and Master Tara Singh (Master Sujan Singh ate Master Tara Singh ji de hathin Guru laikhai lag gaye)

(n.b. i did not claim all chumars converted to buddhism, but i have based upon the sources above claimed that 60 million chumars were opting for sikhism.)

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Guest mehtab
We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism?
its certain organizations who are carrying out such activities...dont be surprised if there are hindus who hate the rss/vhp coz there are...u cant just blame an entire community and insult an entire religion for the actions of a few...how wud u feel if hindus who got killed in punjab by fake khaarkoos labelled sikhs and sikhi as something that they are not? how wud u feel if they made fake literature and quotes degrading Guruji? ya now dont say that u didnt provide fake quotes...the 2 webpages posted by u have nothing but lies...are all the hindus who have read all their scriptures lying? and only u are the epitome of truth left in the world? all the hindu saints (for whom many may not have any respect juz coz they are hindu no matter how spiritually uplifted they are) who have studied their scriptures in detail fools? are they all wrong? please dont make this thread sound like a hindu vs sikh argument...we are talking about an organization who openly claims to be against khalistan and thats it...u didnt have to post anti-hindu stuff in the 1st place, and now that u have, please dont try to back them up with ur di

storted interpretation of Gurbani...anyone can play around with words and make them sound according to their own logic, but its Guruji who knows best, and He never had ill will towards any religion or personality belonging to any religion, which refutes all anti-nonSikh claims made by anyone using Gurbani for their own interests.

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i understand that the remark may be meaning indra the murder mobs the rss and the bad people, but the person making the comments is jus saying dirt y hindus, its not that anyones goin nuts over it jus think how u wud feel if u converted to islam n the muslims start saying these dirty sikhs end of day whats ur family done to be calld dat? thats ur history where ur from. rochak cant help what his background is and even if he cud any sane person wudnt jus sit dfown and accept that. its a principle veer ji something thats wrong is wrong right is right.

rochak, not every hindu went against sikhs. heck i no sum relatives in patna, n wen the mobs came 2 the house (of my relatives) they had a luk, no1 there. so they went 2 te pandits house nxt door, the pandit sed they hav left. (realy they were in the pandits house). the relatives did ardas n finally left patna n now liv safly in canada.

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Guest mehtab

kandola veer, thats exactly what i m saying...my own family also helped Sikhs when the mobs went on a killing spree...they were threatened that their house wud be burnt down but they didnt give away their Sikh friends...and guess what, in the years to come, there were hindus from my family killed by fake khaarkoos...now what if someone from my family starts saying stuff against Sikhs? what if they say "oh we saved Sikhs in delhi and they killed our people in Punjab"...won't they be fools? but gladly no one ever did so...i have said this before also, that when it comes to talking about the mobs that killed Sikhs, the government, the politicians, they are all put under one banner : HINDU...and when we talk about general brar or kps gill, we are quick to say : NO THEY ARE NOT TRUE SIKHS...so u think all those killers and politicians are "true hindus"?

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?

We have qouted extensively from Quran on the website http://www.whyichosesikhism.com to bring out the fallacies inherent in Islam. So why are we being so squeamish about quoting from the Hindu Vedas/Upanishads/Puranas when the RSS is so viciously attacking Sikhism? We just need to show them the mirror and they will back off.

so you do what ur opponent does in order to gain some victory?

what about sikh ideals? ok the rss are doing evil badmouthing should we do the same to?

whats the best way to defeat rss? learn sikhi, live by it, spread by example do parchar of the right thing.

rss twist bani, shud we do the same too? vedas are in sanskrit can u understand it? i cant, hence we rely on interpretations. I would rather rely on guru granth sahib.

there are places where the vedas are entirely dismissed in gurbani as im sure we all know the popular ones here are some of the lesser known ones allow me to start with a qoute from the geeta declaring opposition to veds.

1) when your mind is no longer bewildered by the flowery language of the Vedas, and when it remains fixed in the trance of Self-realization, then you will have attained the divine consciousness (Geetaa, 2.53).

2)byd kqyb isimRiq siB swsq ien@ piVAw mukiq n hoeI]eyku AKru jo gurmuiK j

wpY iqs kI inrml soeI: One may read all the books of the Vedas and Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.), the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation (sggs 747).

3)byd biKAwn krq swDU jn BwghIn smJq nhI Klu]pRym Bgiq rwcy jn nwnk hir ismrin dhn Bey ml: The Holy Saints preach the teachings of the Vedas, but the unfortunate fools do not understand them. Servant Nanak is absorbed in Prema-Bhagti (loving devotional worship); meditating on God, one’s inner pollution is burnt away (sggs 717).

4)isMimRiq swsq byd bIcwry]jpIAY nwmu ijqu pwir auqwry: The Simritees, Shaastras and Vedas reflect that with the Naam Japa you will be saved and carried across (sggs 804).

5)swDo rwm srin ibsrwmw]byd purwn pVy ko ieh gun ismry hir ko nwmw: O Saadhus, rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, that you may meditate on God's Name (sggs 220).

6)piV piV poQI isMimRiq pwTw]byd purwx pVY suix Qwtw]ibnu rs rwqy mnu bhu nwtw: You may read, recite and study the scriptures, the Simritees, Vedas and Puraanas; but without being imbued with the Divine Essence, the mind wanders endlessly (sggs 226).

7)Do not say that the Vedas and the Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.) are false. Those who do not reflect and contemplate them are false (sggs 1350).

8)EAMkwir byd inrmey: Onkaari Beda nirmaye: God created the Vedas (sggs 930).

9)suixAY swsq isimRiq vyd]nwnk Bgqw sdw ivgwsu: Listening—the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss (sggs 2)

you are entitled to show any mirror you wish just remember as i stated previously this rss crap is about politics. Try talking to an rss their not interested in anything you say their there to push propaganda . Instead of countering using the same ganth a sikh shud carry fwd with sikh ideals, network with other sikh groups regardless of jathas, castes e

tc, do parchar to youth with pyar on sikh issues.

Rss are laffing they aint like u. you take it to heart they twist bani n think il show em back. but dey want control and rss propag is der medium tool to achieve that goal. in the path of that goal countless millions of people have been killed swept under the carpet, women raped people lost their homes. what religion principles ar rss living by then? you get me? you can blast da hell out of hindus dey dont care all dey want is power religion dont mean jak to dem. wake up khalsa bir

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^_^ Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh! ^_^

I apologize if I have offended anyone by calling them 'dirty hindus' but that was not my focus, I was calling the govt like Gandhis Nehru Congress them dirty after everything Sikhs have done throughout history until today and how they returned the favour :umm: ... not the good ones (never) as I consider everyone to be equal to me(better) whether they may be Hindu, Muslim, Christian etc... to be all Religions are Great, Sikhism is just another Great Religion...(in my eyes they all speak Truth, but Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is purest of Truth) but I still Respect them as all Great Religions.. Again the term 'dirty hindus' was referred to those who consider oneself to be superior than another(we born the same way, look the same, talk the same, smell through our nose, eat through our mouth etc and die the same so how is anyone superior? ) and I was calling dirty hindus especially the ones who betreyed the Great Sikhs(anyone in that matter) (who they went on saying they are brothers) but backstabbed their brothers in the back with a knife and have been considering and keeping them as second class people with no value... Those Hindus/Muslim/Sikh brothers I

was calling Dirty... But again for any further misintrepation I did not call anyone dirty rather than what I have tried to explained...

If I have offended anyone in anyway, I do apologize and ask for your forgiveness.

^_^ Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh! ^_^

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