Karmic Theory In Sikhism

[besoft]

Thanks once again for a nice reply and I am grateful for sharing.I get your view point that we are blessed with some element of free will so as to achieve the objective of life that is to seek HIm and ,if possible, merge with HIM.

2.

The question that comes to the mind of a novice is as to what is 'dhur'. Is it from the beginning as is understood by a common Punjabi understanding man or 'dhur' will stand for the beginning of a particular joonie/form/specie.

At places one feels as if dhur is being addressed to as the beginning of life.Is the meaning has universal applicability so far as bani is concerned or it has always to be looked into the context.?

3.

As per that we have discussed so far there seems to be a great similarity in sikhism and Hinduism .There are differences, Of course, as in Sikhism man can do Naam jap and burn away the karmas.

Kindly comment if there is some other visible difference.

ਧੁਰਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲੇਖ ਲਿਖੇ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈ ॥

By virtue of the pre-ordained destiny on my brow, I have obtained the Lord.

[Note: I am giving two lines here ,one above this and one below this ,for interpretation]

ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲਿਖਤੁ ਲਿਲਾਰਾ ॥

They alone meditate on God in their mind, on whose forehead such beginning.

WJKK WJKF

[Bijla Singh]

ਧੁਰਿ - ਧੁਰ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਜਿਥੋਂ ਜੀਵ ਆਏ ਹਨ

I wouldn't call karmic theory a hinduism theory because of the term hindu but it exists in many eastern religions with different versions. Indian theory (Hinduism, Jainism etc) is that you reap what you sow and karmas are static and cannot be changed no matter what. Not even Avtaars can escape the power of karma. For example, father of Duryodhan was blind because of what he had 107 lives ago and all of the good deeds of 106 lives couldn't change anything. Company of Krishna made no difference and Duropadi suffered for the same reasons. Sita suffered her entire life and company of her husband, Raam, did not make anything better. But in Sikhi karma is not all powerful. Naam is considered most powerful and karma is considered weak. This is a huge difference and sets Sikhi apart.

I couldn't find the katha by Baba Hari Singh. A direct link would be nice.

[besoft]

ਧੁਰਿ - ਧੁਰ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਤੋਂ ਭਾਵ ਜਿਥੋਂ ਜੀਵ ਆਏ ਹਨ I wouldn't call karmic theory a hinduism theory because of the term hindu but it exists in many eastern religions with different versions. Indian theory (Hinduism, Jainism etc) is that you reap what you sow and karmas are static and cannot be changed no matter what. Not even Avtaars can escape the power of karma. For example, father of Duryodhan was blind because of what he had 107 lives ago and all of the good deeds of 106 lives couldn't change anything. Company of Krishna made no difference and Duropadi suffered for the same reasons. Sita suffered her entire life and company of her husband, Raam, did not make anything better. But in Sikhi karma is not all powerful. Naam is considered most powerful and karma is considered weak. This is a huge difference and sets Sikhi apart. I couldn't find the katha by Baba Hari Singh. A direct link would be nice.

All that you have stated is correct.It is true that we should call it as Vedantic theory. It was stated under a different garb. We are discussing the theory of Karma as per sikhi and the questions that may need consideration would be as follows:

1.Is the Karmic Theory the same as the Vedantic theory? It is presumed to be so. It shall also not stand to logic to give importance of various 'tuks' of bani . All tuks need better appreciation as we are doing in the thread. However, it is slightly surprising as to why some other member has not given the opinion in this thread.It is their will.

It is presumed ,in wider context, that we have pre-ordained desting from the 'dhur' i.e from the very beginning and our first Karma came along woth the creation and that was HIS gift.It is self interpolation of bani and I may be off. 'Naam de Dhare sagle jant'.It is thru. naam that every form/specie came into being and came along the first karma and the consequently the second karam i.e the natural response that was also pre ordained. . If we have any element of free will we would have been in a position to change our karams and that shall not stand to logic as the one who has created us also wants that HIS order and grace and 'nadar' should always prevail for all the times to to come.Thus there is slight anamoly here between free will and the theroy of karma as per sikhism. ' Aap Beejay aape he Khah'.It is true but in a contextual sense that every thing is pre-ordained and the poor Mortal is put in the cycle of incarnation by the Lord HImself.it is only when he is pleased and we are graced upon by HIM that we may get a chance to be liberated. If we belive fully in theory Free will it shall tantamount to the absence of the theory of Karma. I lay rest to this discussion that has beeen carried in a very amicable manner.I shall post further during the progression of this thread.Kindly go through the following sabad.

ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Suhi 5th Guru. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਘਰ ਕਾ ਕਾਜੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਰੂੜਾ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;The beauteous mortal knows not the work of his household. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਝੂਠੈ ਧੰਧੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਮੂੜਾ ॥੧॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;The fool is engrossed in the false affairs. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਜਿਤੁ ਤੂੰ ਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਗਨਾ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;As Thou attachest one, so is he attached. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਜਾ ਤੂੰ ਦੇਹਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਉ ਜਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;When Thou blessest him then utters he Thy Name. Pause. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਾਤੇ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;God's slaves are imbued with God, &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਣਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਮਾਤੇ ॥੨॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;and night and day remain inebriated with Lord's wine (of Name). &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਬਾਹ ਪਕਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਢੇ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Holding them by the arm the Lord Himself pulls them out, &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਟੂਟੇ ਗਾਢੇ ॥੩॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;and unites with Himself those, who are separated from Him since many birth. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਉਧਰੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੇ ॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Shower Thine benediction and save me Thou, O my Lord Master. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਹਰਿ ਸਰਣਿ ਦੁਆਰੇ ॥੪॥੨੯॥੩੫॥ &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;Nanak, Thy slave O God, has sought the refuge of Thy door. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;<br /><br />and<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

As ususal my regards to Bijla singh ji who has contributed a lot and made me understand the things from some other perspective. Let us see if some other members have something to add.

I may kindly be advised if the sabad posted is legible as it does not appear to be so on my browser.

Wjkk Wjkf

[besoft]

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

Pauree:

ਆਪੇ ॥

He Himself issues His Commands, and links the people of the world to their tasks.

ਇਕਿ ॥

He Himself joins some to Himself, and through the Guru, they find peace.

ਦਹ ॥

The mind runs around in the ten directions; the Guru holds it still.

ਨਾਵੈ ॥

Everyone longs for the Name, but it is only found through the Guru's Teachings.

<a class="dict" href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A7%E0%A9%81%E0%A8%B0%E0%A8%BF" onmouseover="ddrivetip('iḏẖur /i From Dhūra', 250)" ;="" onmouseout="hideddrivetip()">ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੀਐ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧੨॥

Your pre-ordained destiny, written by the Lord in the very beginning, cannot be erased. ||12||

Kindly go through the above sabad and explain/veechar over this in regard to the Karmic theory i.e 'aape beejay aape kha'

[Bijla Singh]

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚਲਾਇਦਾ ਜਗੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

ਇਕਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਆਪਿ ਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਾਵਦਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥

ਨਾਵੈ ਨੋ ਸਭ ਲੋਚਦੀ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੀਐ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧੨॥

This pauri is no different than what has explained before. It states clearly that what has been written cannot be erased but it does not negate the possibility of altering the karma. In fact, it mentions that through Guru one can obtain peace and Naam. Naam has the power to burn our karmas so that we can run out of all the karmas and attain salvation. The following pankti says the same thing:

ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੇ ਸਖੀ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥

Once, a Sikh was reading Gurbani and recited the above pankti. Another Sikh (a king) heard this tuk and went to Guru Sahib and asked, “If karma cannot be erased then what is the point of becoming a Sikh of Satguru?” Guru Sahib (Arjan Dev Ji) said that he would provide the answer tomorrow. At night the king had a dream that he was born in a family of a low caste, lived his life, had kids and then died. He woke up and felt like the dream was real but he ignored it and went to see Guru Sahib. Guru Ji asked him to accompany him on a morning walk. Both along with other Sikhs went to a village which was the birth village of the king in his dream. They approached a house where funeral had taken place. As soon as they saw the king accompanying Guru Sahib, they rushed to him, hugging and crying and feeling happy. The kids in the household called him their father and a woman called him her husband but the king could not understand anything. The family thought that the man of the household had not died but was alive. Guru Sahib asked them to go check if the man they had buried was there and surely the dead body was there but everyone was confused over what had happened. Guru Sahib explained to the king that he was destined to take a birth in a low caste family and live his life in misery but coming in the sanctuary of Satguru, he had been saved from that life and everything had passed in a dream. This is why the family is mistaking king to be one of their own. I wrote it very briefly but the point is that an entire life was passed in a dream which is huge. It was not erased but changed.

Another sakhi is of a Sikh whose all of the lives were passed in a dream. In his last life, he was sitting on a branch eating a fruit (reetha) and suddenly fell down and died. As soon as he died in his dream he woke up and found the same fruit he was eating in his dream in his mouth. Becoming Sikh of a Satguru makes all the difference otherwise humans will reap what they sow and continue to come and go as Gurbani states:

ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੨੦॥

I hope it makes better sense. You can read Gurmat Karam Philosophy by Bhai Randhir Singh. It makes sense in my head and what I understand is nearly impossible to write and explain.