Key Discussion

[SikherOfTheNaam]

Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

Hi Cyber Sangat. I haven't posted on this forum for a long time but when I can do like to browse and see catch up a little bit. Recently, however, I participated in a discussion on 'TatKhalsaForums' ? which discussed; as to what I believe a sensitive and somewhat modern topic. I decided to raise the issue on this forum also and tried to make the title of this topic as vague as possible in the hope of attracting alot of people to it.

This topic of dicussion begged the questuon 'Are women allowed in the Panj Pyaare?' I believe that this is a sensitive topic for many and there are a variety of contrasting views, there are some that may say that it doesn't effect them so why worry and others that say it is all up to God. However, please see below my response to the question that I stated. I am also interested into hearing your own personal views on this.

'I think the question of whether women should be in the Panj Pyaree is a great question in which I believe atleast needs addressing. To me, when Sri Guru Gobindh Singh Maharaj asked for 5 heads, the Panj were not five men, they were five souls. You could argue that it was still men who had enough pyaar to do so. Ok, if I was to agree with that, isn't it wrong to stop women now? Isn't that inequality? Surely a woman who has enough pyaar for Vaaheguroo should be able to represent the 5 beloved ones? A woman who puts God before all else? Who is a gursikh? Again, it is her soul that is thirsty for the naam, not her physical body.

I also agree that these questions Sikhs have do need answering. How can one progress on the path if they have many unanswered questions? I do suggest naam simran to gain all the understanding of the world, but doing vichaar is also useful - as it makes more than one person think on a different level; aiding them too.

I believe that this can also be related to the Guroos, and as to why they were all male. One may ask 'Why so'? However, I believe the explanation is this.

Up to the time before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee, there was severe inequality between men and women; which many of you know - as equality was one thing Guroo jee preached. It was because of this I believe they were males due to that gender at the time being seen as 'superior'. I personally don't believe that if they were all female during this time many people would have listened to the message - due to their poor views on equality. This can be related to that of the Panj Pyaree in that at that time it may have not been believed by others that those that offered their heads were a combination of both genders.

Whatever the real reason for this is; whether it was for what I have stated above or not; this modern issue of today needs to be addressed. If a person is being denied to participate in such an amazing event of someones life purely because of their gender - doesn't this go against equality preached by the Guroos? For a woman can be equally as spiritual and have the same amount of pyaar for God as a man - for women reach Sachkhand too- dont they?

This is the same for 'Saints'. Many people say there are no female saints or they are unheard of. This is debateable also! One women could be more spiritually high than any of her male counterparts- for it is her genderless soul that has the thirst for the naam not her body! We can't put physical constraints on a person saying a man is a rubbish 'intellect' or that a women is 'weak and feable' for their souls are the same. By his hukam you die as a man, by his hukam you die as a woman. We did not ask for our gender and thus whether we enter the court of the lord as a "man or woman" it doesn't affect the pyaar of our souls.

The trouble today is not many people actually rise up and say 'Hang on a minute.. how about this?' 'Why is this like this?'. With no questions we have no answers. Asking Maharaj is the best way in which to understand his univerise, hukam and obtain the answers, however it is also important that the sangat address these 'modern day' problems and through this; maybe by his hukam and kirpaa we will be enlightened.

If we relate this, it was the seat of supreme temporal authority for Sikhs - the Akaal Takht which actually stated to the panth the sikh code of conduct - Reht Maryada. After the death of Sri Guru Gobindh Singh Maraharaj, there had been a lot of questions between sikhs on what actually was the accurate portrayal of the sikh customs and conduct. In addition to this; there were many attempts to define this based on the Guroos principles but many were rejected. It is because of this; if effective communication between individuals didn't exist and everyone refused to ask such questions - whos to say we would have found the answer today? - and not still be unsure as to what actually defines Reht Maryada.

When Vaaheguroo gives us such amazing answers through the most unique and beautiful ways it is important that as a sangat; these things are discussed - such as the issue of women in the Panj Pyare. It is important that we don't ignore such questions and say it doesn't relate to us - because the decision affects all sikhs.'

I hope I haven't offended anyone as this wasn't my intention.

Take Care - Stay in Chardi Kalaa

SikherOfTheNaam aka. Khalsa123

[Matheen]

Vaaheguroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa Vaaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

......This is the same for 'Saints'. Many people say there are no female saints or they are unheard of.

SikherOfTheNaam aka. Khalsa123

Not true ji. There are female Sants. I know one quite well and they too agree that the 5 Pyare should be men. They also believe that women shouldn't do Akhand Paath seva at certain times of the month. This is something only women can relate to, to be honest. I'm just going by what I was told.

Not saying I agree or disagree, just letting you know what a female Bhramgyani told me.

[Only five]

Waheguru Ji Kakhalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Khalsa123 ji

Das completely agree with you here. Our Gurus did not treat men and women differently. In our Gurus eyes we were the same. Also when Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji asked for five heads he did not ask for five Sikh men heads. Women are just as pure Sikhs as men. The people that don't agree with this ask yourself, what makes a Sikh a Gursikh? Gender has nothing to do with it. Also when Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said where ever their are 5 Gursikhs present take it as I am present. Hence once again he did not say when there are 5 Gursikh men present. Let's not be arrogant to this knowledge.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[akal sahai]

rather then us lot discuss it between ourselves whether women can do panj seva or not, why cant the people who are concerned with this question do the bhagti, get darshan, and ask guru ji themselves..... i believe if you cant do that, then probably really dont want to know...

sants and mahapurakhs have given an answer to this question but if we dont want to follow them or believe in them, then do just do the bhagti yourselves and f there any other questions that you are concerned about im sure they would be answered....

because there is only one answer, so why discuss....

muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ]

muha k bolan boleeai jith sun dhharae piaar ||

What words can we speak to evoke His Love?

AMimRq vylw scu nwau vifAweI vIcwru ]

a(n)mrith vaelaa sach naao vaddiaaee veechaar ||

In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.

my two cents

gurbar akal

[sherlsurj]

of course they are allowed in panj pyaareh. why not?sum women i know have more heart than me, than any other guy i know. ive seen women in panj pyaareh and good on them. look at mai bhago back in teh day now u name me any guy 2day that cudve doen what shes done. rather than saying to her what a woman...id rather say what a sikh!!!

[CaptainQ]

[Harjeet.Singh]

Mod Note: Warning given

[jaspinder1986]

trie tellin maata bhag kaur she shouldnt be in the panj payareh an see wot ^appens 2 u!!

[1kAuR1]

WJKK WJKF

I think the general concensus is that women cannot be a part of the Panj Pyaare due the traditional view. When Guru Gobind Sing Ji asked for 5 heads no women stepped forward and so it makes sense that only men can do this sewa. In repect to all other sewa's women can do anything a man can do.

Also as an aside the Panj Pyaare due to rehat are required to only wear a bana without any pyjama so it wouldnt really be practicle for a Bibi to do the sewa.

Bhul Chuf Maaf.

WJKK WJKF

[Guptkaur1]

hmm..

I personally agree the the above post. When guru ji asked for 5 heads 5 SINGHS stood up. I know its all about the soul.But guru ji knew those 5 singhs were ganna stand up,He done this for a reason. Some things guru ji does for a reason and who are we to argue with it.

To the original poster. We can progress the path without all the questions being answered!! WHY!?!? Who are we to question guru ji?

ITS ALL ABOUT FAITH!!

ibnu nwvY ikAw jIvnw iPtu iDRgu cqurweI ]

bin naavai kiaa jeevanaa fitt dhhrig chathuraaee ||

Without the Name, what is life? Cleverness is detestable and cursed.

asking too many questions can lead to doubt. This questions does not need to be answered.

wjkk wjkf.. if i offended..forgive me