Can A 'mona' Ever Be Classed As As Sikh ?

[Degh-Tegh-Fathe]

WJKK WJKF

I read with interest the latest debacle on the re-definitions of a 'Sehjdhari Sikh' and 'Patit' by the SGPC. Terms such as sehjdari, kesdhari and even Gursikh are misleading -either you are a Sikh or not -there is no classification/ levels/ divisions/ standards to being a Sikh.

http://www.panthic.org/news/129/ARTICLE/4617/2008-12-19.html

Some inter-related questions to the sangat:

1. Can a mona (person with cut hairs) be classed/ regarded as any type of Sikh -the term sehjdhari + Sikh is misleading and actually insulting (it is not ok to have cut hairs and still be associated (any form) to the Sikh faith?

2. Further, does the concept of a 'sehjdhari Sikh' actually exist according to any respectable variation of Maryada (yes, I know we technically only have one marayada!) ?

3. Should the term 'sehjdhari Sikh' be used by the Panth ?

4. Has the SGPC got it wrong ?

A sikh is a student right? a disciple of the guru...if you havent got your kesh you cant be a sikh because u have not followed your GURUS instructions, you havent learnt anything so how exactly are you a disciple? People just want to not cut there hair, party sharty, pyaar vyaar and then at the end of the day go to the gurdwara and say im a siikh because it makes them feel good inside and gives them comfort becasue they think theyll go to "heaven"

[Temporary]

I don't know about the world but i'm a mona and i classify myself as SIKH...

[Only five]

I don't know about the world but i'm a mona and i classify myself as SIKH...

I classify myself as a doctor :WOOHOO: I like the label gives me comfort to the question who am I. :rolleyes:

[Mehtab Singh]

I am not worth any class.

[+Singh_is_King+]

WJKK WJKF,

NOTE TO ADMINS: The intent behind this thread is not to 'bash monae'. It has raised healthy debate amongst the Sangat and should continue....

After a day of observing comments, I can conclude:

1. Even monae dont class themseleves as Sikhs (eg. Gurdaspuria E12)

2. We must go back to first principles/ teachings of the Guru to take the Panth forward

3. We all violently agree that WE are nobody to judge monae but who and what constitutes a Sikh is regretablly mis-interpreted according to the Gurus teachings -this cannot be allowed

Finally,

SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS

Section One

CHAPTER 1

The Definition of Sikh :

Article I

Any human being who faithfully believes in

i. One Immortal Being,

ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,

iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,

iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and

v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

. CHAPTER II

Section Two

Sikh Living

Articles II

A Sikh's life has two aspects :

individual or personal and corporate or Panthic.

CHAPTER III

A Sikh's Personal Life

Article III

A Sikh's personal life should comprehend:-

i. Meditation on Nam (Divine Substance, also translated as the God's attributed self) and the scriptures,

ii. Leading life according to the Guru's teachings and

iii. Altruistic voluntary service.

Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures

Article IV

1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness).

2. He/she should recite the following scriptural compositions every day :

a. The Japu, the Jaapu and the Ten Sawayyas (Quartets) - beginning "Sarwag sudh"-- in the morning.

b. Sodar Rehras comprising the following compositions:-

i) nine hymns of the Guru Granth Sahib, occuring in the holy book after the Japuji Sahib, (The Phrase in Italic has been interpolated by the translator to help locate the hymns more conveniently.) the first of which begins with "Sodar" and the last of which ends with "saran pare ki rakho sarma",

ii) The Benti Chaupai of the tenth Guru (beginning "hamri karo hath dai rachha" and ending with "dusht dokh te leho bachai",

iii) the Sawayya beginning with the words "pae gahe jab te tumre",

iv) the Dohira beginning with the words "sagal duar kau chhad kai".

v) the first five and the last pauris (stanzas) of Anand Sahib (The object of reciting the Anand as part of Sodar Rehras or at the conclusion of the congregational gathering is just to express joy and gratitude for the communion with the Guru ) and.

vi) the Mundawani and the slok Mahla 5 beginning "tera kita jato nahi"- in the evening after sunset.

© The Sohila - to be recited at night before going to bed. The morning and evening recitations should be concluded with the Ardas (formal supplication litany).

[cool water]

Unfortunately I think people have failed to realize that all of this sudden interest in defining who a Sikh is, is at best political window dressing by an Imperialist SGPC which is owned by the SAD, now as Amritdharis are their only bankable constituency they are wary of Sahajdharis and want them excluded from the voting process, which is the reason for these repeated 'amendments' from pre-Independence, to 1971 and up until the present day.

Here is an interesting bit on the subject from Serjinder Singh of Sikhnet:

Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji ki fateh

Nearly 3 years after Baisakhi of 1699 Guru ji wrote letters (hukamnamas to some sahejdhari Sikhs - non amritdhari) on 6 February 1702 signed (characteristic authentic Nissan of tenth Guruji) by Guruji. The following is the text of one of these written to Sikhs presumably in Patna as the letter is preserved there.

"Ek Oankar Satguru ji. Siri Guru ji di agaya hai Bhai Mihar Chand Karam Chand, Guru rakhega. Guru Guru japna janam saurega. Tusi mera Khalsa ho. Ik sau ik 101) rupiah haathi di phurmais hukam dekhde he sitabee hundee karai bhejni. Ar hor jo kichh Guru ke namit ka hovai so apai lai avna. Hathiar banh ke avgu so nihal hogu. Us di ghaal thai pavagu Guru naal rahgu. Guru ke navit ka hovai so horus kise no nahee dena ar masand, masandiay naal naahee milna, nahee mannanna, Jo sikh mile so mail laina. Vadheek dikkat naahee karni. Mera hukam hai sangat. Sammat 1758 miti Fago 10, satran Ath 8."

This is its translation.

Ek Oankar Satguru ji. This is the command of Siri Guru ji (for) Bhai Mihar Chand and Karam Chand Guru shall protect you. Remember and recite Guru your life shall become worthwhile. YOU ARE MY KHALSA. Your name has been proposed for arranging 101 Rupees for (procuring) an elephant. On seeing this command immediately send a draft, and anything else offered in the name of the Guru, you should bring with you. Those of you who will come adorning weapons shall be blessed, their efforts shall bear fruit and their loyalty to Guru shall be upheld. Anything offered in the name of Guru is not to be handed over to anyone else. And you should not socialise with a Masand or a Masand follower nor honour them. Any sikh who intends to join (sangat) should be admitted, you should not create too much hinderance. This is my command to the Sangat. Sammat(the Indian Bikrami calendar) 1758 Date Fago(Faggan the last month of the Indian year) 10 (Western calendar 6 February 1702) Lines eight 8.

This letter is in the Harimandar Sahib Patna (Hukamname edited by Ganda Singh, Hukamnama No. 55, published by Punjabi University Patiala, 1967)

Very important points that emerge from this Hukamnama are:

1. This is an actual document signed by tenth Guru ji nearly 3 years after the Baisakhi 1699 rather than some doubtful Rahitnama hence reflecting the actual view or attitude towards the sikhs to whom letter was wirtten.

2. The letter was written to two persons who from their name are obviously not Singhs but with 'Chand' surname hence not amritdhari.

3. The most odd thing is that Guru ji clearly says "Tusi Mera Khalsa Ho" ie You are my Khalsa". This is unusual in the sense that it means Guruji was not reserving the term Khalsa only for Amritdharis but for some Sahejdhari Sikhs as well.

4. Guru ji appears to be more concerned about by-passing the Masands for remitting the offerings directly to Guru ji rather than anything such as urge them to get baptised.

5. In terms of physical appearance (such as kakkaars etc) again Guruji is more particular about the Sikhs arriving with weapons on their person rather than fomally being baptised and bearing "Singh" surname.

6. In order to secure against any forgery Guru ji put his characteristic Nissan (usually brief Mool Mantar in his own hand) on the letter and even gave the number of lines of text in the letter as 8 at the end of the letter. This was the usual security arrangement. Comparison with numerous other such letters by Guru ji confirms that this is an authentic letter.

7. The rigid definition of a Khalsa that we are now given to accept does not seem to apply here. The main criteria for a Khalsa Guru ji appears to be emphasising is not to use the Masand channel to approach Guruji but to have direct connection with Guru ji. Indeed this is what the word "Khalisah" meant in the then existing usage of this term in the Mughal revenue administration of that time.

Similarly there is another letter written to the Sangat in Dhaka (Bangladesh) addressed to Bhai Brindaban and Gulal Chand (ibid. Hukamnama 57) with almost identical text such as "Tusi mera khalsa ho" and commanding again 101 rupees to be arranged and coming with weapons on and not socialising with Masands.

Humbly

Serjinder Singh

Excellent post, it makes logically sense that sikhs are not automatically khalsa's or else are classed as non-sikhs. It is upon the Sikh to wear the 5k's and do what is required to become amritdhari and thus into the khalsa. The taksali and SGPC and others are just fighting it over because of political reasons they feared assimulation of the Sikh identity by Hindu india and thus devised a rehit that was a disaster by forcing many Sikhs into the arms of weird hindu punjabi sects (radha swami's, ravi dassis, dara lucha sauda) and in turn have a very pro-indian govt agenda. The very rehit that was made by scholars in 1950s that they thought would preserve the keshdari visible distinct appearence has backfiried by pushing majority mona/sahejdhari Sikhs feeling rejected by keshdhari/amrithdari minority and outside the faith. This wrong must be made right so that Sikhs of all appearences are once again brought back into the fold.

[japmans]

After a day of observing comments, I can conclude:

1. Even monae dont class themseleves as Sikhs (eg. Gurdaspuria E12)

whoa, that's some seriously scientific and accurate conclusions going on... Since we don't know which of the respondents are monay and which aren't, you're implying that just cuz 1 mona veer said he doesn't call himself a sikh, that you can "CONCLUDE" (which is usually a term used to state a final opinion or perspective) that monay don't class themselves as sikhs.. what about the numerous keshdharis and amritdharis that DO classify monay as sikhs.... are their opinions not worth as much because it doesn't come "from the horse's mouth", so to speak?

I'm sure you didn't intend to make a blanket statement, but always do keep in mind when younger kids come on and see strong statements, they're likely to believe them, because dramatic and exaggerated statements are always funner to read and believe.

[Only five]

After a day of observing comments, I can conclude:

1. Even monae dont class themseleves as Sikhs (eg. Gurdaspuria E12)

whoa, that's some seriously scientific and accurate conclusions going on... Since we don't know which of the respondents are monay and which aren't, you're implying that just cuz 1 mona veer said he doesn't call himself a sikh, that you can "CONCLUDE" (which is usually a term used to state a final opinion or perspective) that monay don't class themselves as sikhs.. what about the numerous keshdharis and amritdharis that DO classify monay as sikhs.... are their opinions not worth as much because it doesn't come "from the horse's mouth", so to speak?

I'm sure you didn't intend to make a blanket statement, but always do keep in mind when younger kids come on and see strong statements, they're likely to believe them, because dramatic and exaggerated statements are always funner to read and believe.

The 'horse's mouth' is this how you talk to your mother. And i'm not saying this as a joke.

When it comes to defining a Sikh all feelings and opinions are put DEEP in the pockets, where they just can't jump up, and catch you off guard. Opinions are just as useless in this discussion as your ability to be a jackal.

Don't worry about the youngster's your horse's mouth comment is brilliant.

[2desi]

This is being made more complicated than it should be.

A Sikh is someone who wants to help spread the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it doesn't matter if your mona or keshdharee. A person is not a Sikh when he/she spreads or encourages things that would be considered against the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

For example if you drink alcohol but keep it to yourself, I would considered you a Sikh because it’s your own personal problem and I have no right to judge you. You have to fight your own battles and ask Guru Ji for help.

BUT if you encourage others to drink alcohol, then you are not a Sikh because you are speaking against the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and propagating a message different from our Guru Sahibs.

[Degh-Tegh-Fathe]

This is being made more complicated than it should be.

A Sikh is someone who wants to help spread the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it doesn't matter if your mona or keshdharee. A person is not a Sikh when he/she spreads or encourages things that would be considered against the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

For example if you drink alcohol but keep it to yourself, I would considered you a Sikh because it's your own personal problem and I have no right to judge you. You have to fight your own battles and ask Guru Ji for help.

BUT if you encourage others to drink alcohol, then you are not a Sikh because you are speaking against the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and propagating a message different from our Guru Sahibs.

your contradicting yourself..how can someone that has there hair cut...and hasnt taken amrit spread guru sahibs message without following it for them selves first? If you havent followed NUMBER ONE HUKKAM(take khandai di pahul) then your not following the message and are far from spreading it to others...its like not having a education but going and being a astro physics professor...