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A Question To Fellow My Brothers And Sisters?


Guest confusingh
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Fateh!

To summarise these 6 pages of waffle then:

- there is an unidentified gurdwara that is doing something Very Bad, but no one apart from the OP knows what it is

- there are some people whose very narrow view of Sikhi does not allow them to understand the point of traditional Sikh maryada like jyot, toof, jal and parshad

- Satkaar that is shown to the Bir of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in traditionally Indian ways that have a long history is equivalent to outright idolatry

- Daily nitnem, regular and concentrated jaap of Mul Mantra, doing simran, akhand paths and sehaj paths are Evil Brahmin Practices!!! or at best entirely useless.

- it's better to understand what you are reading. (Duh?)

- offering a dissenting opinion or pointing out the complete lack of a point in these accusations of heresy and the alternative remedies that are offered, means that you are a ... Slave of the 5 Thieves!!!

This thread gets my vote for biggest waste of time ever on the history of this forum.

K.

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Guest confusingh
Fateh!

To summarise these 6 pages of waffle then:

- there is an unidentified gurdwara that is doing something Very Bad, but no one apart from the OP knows what it is

- there are some people whose very narrow view of Sikhi does not allow them to understand the point of traditional Sikh maryada like jyot, toof, jal and parshad

- Satkaar that is shown to the Bir of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in traditionally Indian ways that have a long history is equivalent to outright idolatry

- Daily nitnem, regular and concentrated jaap of Mul Mantra, doing simran, akhand paths and sehaj paths are Evil Brahmin Practices!!! or at best entirely useless.

- it's better to understand what you are reading. (Duh?)

- offering a dissenting opinion or pointing out the complete lack of a point in these accusations of heresy and the alternative remedies that are offered, means that you are a ... Slave of the 5 Thieves!!!

This thread gets my vote for biggest waste of time ever on the history of this forum.

K.

None of the above is justified in any manner, none of your points are backed up and your argument holds no credibility in regards of debate; I understand for some this may be a sensitive issues which I am addressing, however one minute Im a Kala Afghana supporter, then im confused and theres been a couple more allegations made too lol... however although most of the sangat finds it hard to make up their mind... I'll go through each of your points step by step Veer ji:-

- yes the Guru Ghar will remain unidentified, if you haven't picked up any of the events i've pointed out from as you say '6 pages ' your analytical skills are appauling; all you are then trying to do is claim that the thread is a waste of time etc. this to me suggests you just don't want to hear thoughtful debate, sorry but I don't understand your reasoning behind your posts and there doesn't really seem to be any!... I have clearly stated that Sikhi should be carried out in accordance to moral values and actions (perhaps the only way to assess the morality of a person is to value them upon their actions) in order to become a pure Sikh and live a moral lifestyle, you'd have to obtain knowledge (GIAN) from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message, rather than taking a ritualistic approach (how hard is it to understand what the term ritualism means) and attempting to take the complexity of leading a GurSikh life by using mantras as a sole form of learning (it just can't happen) you can't decipher a message purely from phonetics, one has to interpret and give thought as of what the message of Guru Ji is.

-Ok traditional... well I'd rather keep faith in a belief system which is proven and backed up by Bani rather than taking advice from any human form who claims to have exclusive knowledge, as many Singhs are doing in this day and age. Secondly I don't want to go to deep in to your selection of 'maryada' however it seems what you try to do in order to further your inconsistent point is mix up practices carried out by Sikhs with rituals, tell me do you even know the origin of toof?... if you can give me one VALID and CREDIBLE reference to this ritual within Sikhi then I'll be happy to re assess my point; however, I doubt you'll be able to do this as many have concluded the lighting of toof is totally useless. Parshad however is a process in which symbolism is used rather than ritualism, again you have failed to make this distinction

- Indian ways... Sikhi is a universal religion open to all and appreciated by many, the use of traditional 'Indian' rituals has no place in our religion, Satkar of Guru Ji is imperative to the respect required to be a GurSikh ( I haven't questioned changing Guru Ji's Rumala and also treating Guru Ji with respect equivalent of that as a Guru should be) However,,, if the practice is SYMBLOIC and RITUALISTIC then there is no conflict, as Sikhi strictly forbids the use of ritualism within the faith.

-AGAIN I have spoken about routine and symbolism, which are both important parts of being a true GurSikh, I have never said any of the above; I have suggested chanting mantras isn't a form which is justified within Sikhi again nobody has used VALID and JUSTIFIABLE references to Guru Ji in order to disprove this. Many Scholars and well respected Singh and Singhniyan also hold this belief but seem to not prioritise this sensitive issue; you'd be shocked at how many people actually do question the use of chants and ritualistic prayer in Sikhi, after all it is more than evident this isn't the way Sikhi should be practiced.

You haven't made any distinctions, you generalise in order to add effect to your points and you've not once used a logical argument to disprove me in any way... Therefore I'm sorry Veer ji but I don't see your points as being valid.

If This thread is causing offence, then I urge you not to visit the thread, however closing a thread simply because you can't disprove something isn't really justified by any means.

Galti Hoi tan Bhul Chuk Maaf Karo.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Confusingh,

1. It was a summary, not an argument.

2. Learn the value of succinctness in language. If you cannot make a point without waffling endlessly, then have someone proofread your posts. Brevity is the soul of wit, and tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, you dig?

3. You can't detach Sikhi from its Indian roots, no more than you can isolate any religion or philosophy from its historical roots. A Sikh shows respect to Guru Ji in the Indian manner of covering one's head in His presence. A Catholic shows respect in a Church by removing his hat. Do you think entering a Gurdwara with a naked head is something that a Sikh will tolerate? Similarly the tradition followed in Gurdwaras in giving satkaar to Guru Ji developed in an Indian environment with social mores, rules and behavioural patterns unique to that place.

4. I don't know how to tell you this, but anthropologists and sociologists are still debating an accurate definition of ritual to this day. Perhaps you should share your definition with them since you seem to have convinced yourself that it is possible to distinguish between symbol and ritual.

5. The only real point in your word salad above is that it is of fundamental importance to understand bani as well as recite it, otherwise one is just making sounds. I agree. :-) That in no way means that repeating 108 mul mantras or holding an akhand path are fruitless occupations.

6. You mentioned some scholars that you believe agree with whatever point you are trying to make. Name them, reference a book or an essay, please. I'm sure the sangat will find it useful.

Regards,

K.

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Ok traditional... well I'd rather keep faith in a belief system which is proven and backed up by Bani rather than taking advice from any human form who claims to have exclusive knowledge, as many Singhs are doing in this day and age. Secondly I don't want to go to deep in to your selection of 'maryada' however it seems what you try to do in order to further your inconsistent point is mix up practices carried out by Sikhs with rituals, tell me do you even know the origin of toof?... if you can give me one VALID and CREDIBLE reference to this ritual within Sikhi then I'll be happy to re assess my point; however, I doubt you'll be able to do this as many have concluded the lighting of toof is totally useless. Parshad however is a process in which symbolism is used rather than ritualism, again you have failed to make this distinction

So Rumala sahib is not a ritual? ok fine its for respect but then isnt chandua sahib and chaur sahib ritualistic? What function do they serve besides the sign of royalty and respect like doing aarti aarta.

Valid sources you asked for.. sure.

"Sankhan kee dhunn ghantan kee kar phoolan kee barkha barkhaavey.

Aarti kot karey sur sundar pekh purandar ke bal jaavey."

"Deh asses sabhey sur maar sudhaar ke aarti deep jagaaeho.

Phool sugandh su ashat dashan jashan jeet ko geet su gaaeho.

Dhoop jagaaei ke sankh bajaei ke sees nivaaei ke ben sunaeho.

He jag maie sada sukh dai te sumbh ko ghaie bado jas paieho"

"Dhup deep ghirt saaj aarti.

Vaarney jao kamala patti.(1)

Mangala har mangala.

Nit mangal raja raam rai ko. (1) Rahao.

Uuthum deeara nirmal baati.

Tuhi niranjan kamla paati.(2)

Raamaa bhagat raamanand janey.

Pooran paramanand bakhaaney.(3)

Madan moorat bhey taar gobindey.

Sain bhaney bhaj paramanandey. (4)(2)"

hope that is enough?

bhuul chuuk maaf

akaal ji sihae

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this is one of the reasons i have completely stopped going to gurdwara. i feel i can learn much more by staying home and reading a book about sikhism. iterating bani or meditating without any knowledge is merely a ritual and i would hate to let myself fall this low. i fail to understand why emphasis these days is placed on quantity rather than quality. you can perform your 1 million recitations of a certain bani but that is just an excuse for inflating your own ego.

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how can anyone argue with someone who can quote Hamlet

so readily?

LOL!!

next its gonna b shakespeare..."o romeoo o romeeo" lol

(i havent been follwin this thread so khalsa jeeo dnt jump @ me lol :rolleyes: jsut read the last few comments and the above quote which mde me lauf hahaha!! ) lol

akaalo :D

regarding the one million jaap "doctor mani" jeeo,

gurbanee is our guroo.. from personal experience the more u read banee.. the more u understand it.. if u keep on reading more and more banee, differnt banee everyday you will realise bhenjee that slowly slowly your understanding increases...

beacuse only maharaj jeeo can give you sojee... mat...intecult can be done be reading books and stuff but guroo sahibb gives us the real giaan... "gur bin ghor andaar"..its all black and dark with guroo sahibs banee...

bhenjee regarding the pumping the ego of x amout of chaupai sahibs, that just shows whos kacha and whos not...

ppl like me are no good dnt do paath, or chaupai sahibs or do gurmantar jaap.. just sleepers (i wud say talkers but im not good @ that eitehr :D lol )...

maaf karna!

one last point bhenj, are u really a doctor?? (in that case im loosing lots of kesh man what do i doo??)

lol sorry!

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Guest confusingh
this is one of the reasons i have completely stopped going to gurdwara. i feel i can learn much more by staying home and reading a book about sikhism. iterating bani or meditating without any knowledge is merely a ritual and i would hate to let myself fall this low. i fail to understand why emphasis these days is placed on quantity rather than quality. you can perform your 1 million recitations of a certain bani but that is just an excuse for inflating your own ego.

The value being brought across in the post is correct, as there is way too much value placed on quantity and there is alot of dilution and non-contextual parchaar and katha being carried out, it is because there is no system for sangat to congregate and debate the meaning and interpretations of Bani is why youngster are becoming more and more alienated from Sikhi, if its not an extreme chant until you drop approach, its a non-existent hardly ever do paath approach. If you do stay at home and gain knowledge then thats your choice (although Rehit Maryada does clearly state we need interaction with Sangat) However ULTIMATELY Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj should be the source of our knowledge, not any old books.

The schools of thought within Sikhi hold no basis, as there is a call for universal brotherhood in most of Guru Ji's message. So the point I make is ok fair dos we have AKJs, Taksali, Sanatan Singhs etc. etc. however aren't these all just there to place dividers within an already small community, each group claims to have exclusivity of something and thats absolutely ridiculous that scholars and 'sants' have condoned this from all groups.

The fact is sangat ji like it or not, its evident Sikhi is a learning experience rather than a 'I'll do this, and then I'll get this' its a value system one has to conform to in order to lead a moral life and get closer to Waheguru. The only responses which have held valid points a previous post which quoted Bani (however I will state Bani is never interpreted in one way and the contextual value of Bani is much more credible than somebody who preaches total false views of Sikhi, not saying the previous did this, their post was quite good) Previous posts have also been made to provide evidence for Sikhi being a learning journey and a means of which a persons deeds are valued rather than rituals. Also, I dont understand the use of extra-effect responses, people are mixing up core Sikh values in order to disprove my point however, as I said Sikhi is complex and not just a simple journey, there are no distinctions taking place...

Confusingh,

1. It was a summary, not an argument.

2. Learn the value of succinctness in language. If you cannot make a point without waffling endlessly, then have someone proofread your posts. Brevity is the soul of wit, and tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, you dig?

3. You can't detach Sikhi from its Indian roots, no more than you can isolate any religion or philosophy from its historical roots. A Sikh shows respect to Guru Ji in the Indian manner of covering one's head in His presence. A Catholic shows respect in a Church by removing his hat. Do you think entering a Gurdwara with a naked head is something that a Sikh will tolerate? Similarly the tradition followed in Gurdwaras in giving satkaar to Guru Ji developed in an Indian environment with social mores, rules and behavioural patterns unique to that place.

4. I don't know how to tell you this, but anthropologists and sociologists are still debating an accurate definition of ritual to this day. Perhaps you should share your definition with them since you seem to have convinced yourself that it is possible to distinguish between symbol and ritual.

5. The only real point in your word salad above is that it is of fundamental importance to understand bani as well as recite it, otherwise one is just making sounds. I agree. :-) That in no way means that repeating 108 mul mantras or holding an akhand path are fruitless occupations.

6. You mentioned some scholars that you believe agree with whatever point you are trying to make. Name them, reference a book or an essay, please. I'm sure the sangat will find it useful.

Regards,

K.

In regards to distinction, I don't think you are addressing SYMBOLISM and RITUALISM, there has been debates between the definition of ritualism, in sociology and anthropology terms however these are not really applicable to Sikhi and a GurSikh way of life because ultimately we would not be looking to any divine source for answers then, and we would be looking to society and relationships within there in order to obtain knowledge, and our source of knowledge should be Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We have to be much more conclusive, ultimately RITUALISM is the belief that it is necessary for rites or repeated sets of actions to be carried out in order to practice or worship to a supreme being (Waheguru) within ritualism there is always an exaggeration of quantity, and a value of 'you do this, you get this' is spread; this is clearly not Sikhi so when people are openly promoting this within the religion then it can not be justified.

The distinction of RITUALISM needs to be made in comparison to SYMBOLISM, which is when symbolic representations are made through acts (for example panj pyare are represented) rather as a means of remembrance (as an example) or something alike instead of a means of obtaining something in the form of . The only thing to be obtained is knowledge from Maharaj Ji, and rituals fail to help us obtain this knowledge as we are not understanding something effectively if we are to chant, chanting being when we repetitively utter words without due focus on the meaning or intent of gaining knowledge then simple as we are not interpreting (making logic and applying words in CONTEXT) so if we choose to chant over interpreting Maharaj ji's message we are not gaining Gian therefore this doesn't help us to fulfill our role as GurSikhs, GURU JI WAS DIRECTLY OPPOSED TO IDOL WORSHIP AND RITUALISM WITHIN SIKHI, so why do we carry this on?

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna, I mean to provide an intelligent debate here, not an argument these are my points and I strongly believe in them, it would be good if we as a Sangat can inform others of our views and debate intelligently. As I said before I see all member of the sangat as my brothers and sisters.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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