Insults To Sggs Ji In Vienna...i Want The Truth Please!

[AmandeepSingh91]

sikhs in punjab have no pride left, out of 20 million there, only 5,000 would be fully ready to face anything. iv seen everytime i go there, people joke about sikhi n no1 cares 2 busy with getting money. badal is the worst he needs to have his head choppd off. then he can put as many tilaks as he likes on

[AK47 JATHA LION]

Those morons equating the recent riots to the 1984 incidents are proper fools!

I think most of you weren't even born then! Just don't do that please. It is belittling 1984, you are just too dumb to see it.

On the contrary, I think after our history in the past 25 years, it would be great disrespect for us not to be prepared for the worst.

Only those who do not learn from history are the fools. And last time I checked, i wasnt the 1 who was underestimating these mobs.

Rumours are circulated even more now of a saroop being burnt.

Prepare for the worst.

[apnepart2]

lol! paranoid?

[+Singh_is_King+]

There is still some caste discrimination in Punjab but things are improving. Remember that so-called members of lower castes are offered alot of legal protection as a community and have special quotas for employment in the government, military and police.

They are also doing alot better economically with alot more rich businessmen and even land-owners coming through. They are hardworkers and motivated by poverty to do as well as they possibly can unlike many of my fellow jatts who sit on a manji all day doing jack all.

If things keep going the way that they are, they will be running Punjab in a few years time. Contrast this to other parts of India where the level of caste discrimination and exploitation is huge.

Because of their increased wealth, power and influence, they have, with a little bit of encouragement from Indian secret agencies, begun to re-assert their identity and authority as a distinct ethnic group, by identifying with Bhagat Ravidaas and building their own Gurdwaras. Unfortunately, alot of them have also turned their back on mainstream Sikhi and are prone to getting involved with cults and deras.

Most of these deras such as sacha sauda etc are made up of Dalits. However, if they really want to 'elevate' themselves, why not take Amrit, become a Khalsa and be free from the shackles and slavery of the caste system altogether?

I mean come on, lets face it, I doubt many Jatts would have the guts to discriminate against a shastardhari bana wearing Khalsa Sikh, even if he/she was from a Dalit background.

A dalit who becomes an Amritdhari Sikh is no longer a dalit. He/she is a Khalsa Sikh, end of story.

As a thought, I wonder how much of this moaning about caste is actually part of having a chip on their shoulder about past discrimination... A bit like kaaleh who still complain about racism because 'they is black' even though the Government and most organisations have bent over backwards to accomodate them.

Sometimes, some groups of people have a low self-esteem and constantly think that the whole world is against them and enjoy playing the victim role so that they can blame an external force for their problems rather than accept any responsiblity for their failings.

I wonder if this is the case with the 'dalits' in Punjab. I would be interested to find out what other people think about this

[RavidassiSikh]

Ravidassi Sikh, your unwillingness to except Ramanand was in the wrong is beggining to irritate alot of people as i can tell from posts. so i'll try to be frank with u.

You called people "ignorant idiots" for supporting the shooting.

Then u asked for proof that Ramanand did beadbi.

You got your proof now. (the photos).

Save the photos, print them , frame them , we dont care what u do with them.

But stop defending the man now. There are no 2 sides of the story when it comes to disrespect of SGGS. There is no negotiation over such issues.

The only thing im upset about is that Niranjan das survived..

Another thing is that u keep talking of castes. Many people have asked you to stop talking about castes on here.

If u want to be known as a Chammar then thats your personal choice. But dont start labelling gurdwareh as jatt gurdwareh ect. Keep such things to yourself or u can expect strong replies from members.

I didnt see the word "JATT" lettered or labelled on the gurdwara i go to. So stop reffering to it as jatt gurdwara.

It doesnt help for unity, when people keep driving wedges. Abandonn this caste labbelling.

you started a whole topic to ask people to justify the shooting.

Maybe now YOU can answer a few questions for us as a devout ravidassi?

Q: Why has the Southall ravidass temple president gone to vienna? if he shows solidarity with the supporters of RamaNand and expresses his condolenses then surely that means he supports the actions of RamaNand and his Beadbi?

Does he support beadbi of SGGS?

your turn to answer us this question now..

VeerJi, if my posts were unclear - let me explain again:

- I have said already it was WRONG that Ramanand etc had people touching their feet in the presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. As a Sikh & follower of SGGS Ji and NOT a dera follower, I have posted this topic because I am compelled to find the truth! I want to know whether slander of our Guru Ji has occured. That is the reason for my questioning of all things - I don't know why you are implying that I am solely defending Ramanand. Why would I?

-NO, in my 1st post I said Ignorant idiots referring to people who are posting replies on this site to stir/ create hatred within our SIKH community (I didnt say they were ignorant because they supported the shooting - heck I'm not sure of the circumstances myself; hence this topic!). By the way my other post said "hooligans" referring to the small minded rioters & looters in Punjab.

- Proof: I did however ask the specific question - what have these men done to deserve being shot dead. The reason I am asking this is because I am wondering whether there are any OTHER wrong practises or things which may have been said by Ramanand etc, which may have led to what happened in Vienna. Do you agree that this is a fair point to make? Otherwise what about all the Sants in Punjab like Dhadrianwale, that have people bowing down to them & giving them gifts to them in the presence of our SGGS Maharaj?? THEY ARE WRONG aswell but why arent we taking action against them ASWELL - you see my point? I am simply asking the question.

- My brother, also I have explained before my wish/ hope is that we would have no casteism within our Sikh communities, so I am not driving a wedge inbetween unity & progression. I have talked of castes because it is a reality - we have separate Gurdwaras frequented by particular castes, some people do not like to intermarry between certain backgrounds, there's discrimination against ALL castes in workplaces / in schools etc etc etc. In my life I have always referred to myself as a Sikh but the majority of Sikhs inside/outside of Punjab will still say "BUT what caste are you" & if the answers chamar or Ravidassi - then apparently I am told I am not a 'real Sikh'. This is why I have talked of being from a Chamar background - because it is still in this day & age an unfortunate reality of our Society - THE LABELS are still there for all castes....

- How can I really speak on behalf of that particular Gurdwara President? I can only speak on my behalf & say that I am not trying to irritate anyone with this posting & my personal view is - IF a group of SIKHS have taken a man's life & stabbed people in the presence of SGGS JI & all in the name of SIKHI then I want to know exactly why. All I seek is the truth.

Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru...

[dalsingh101]

However, if they really want to 'elevate' themselves, why not take Amrit, become a Khalsa and be free from the shackles and slavery of the caste system altogether?

I mean come on, lets face it, I doubt many Jatts would have the guts to discriminate against a shastardhari bana wearing Khalsa Sikh, even if he/she was from a Dalit background.

I don't think you know just how dumb certain "kuttarh" Jat fuddus can be mate.

[apnepart2]

the dalits in punjab are NOT SIKHS alone. There are hindu, muslim, christian etc. majority of Dalits are of no religion. They are found in a Gurdwara, Muslim Tomb or a temple or a church depending which one is serving free food for that day. Its a harsh reality of India. Dalits are hungry. Only a tiny tiny miniscule percentage are well off and that too because of reservation quotas. And not every Dalit benefits from quota system, the ones who got benefits a generation back have created considerable clout and make sure only their childeren get the benefits and not the needy Dalit. Its a case of fat getting more fatter. And the womenfolk of Dalits in Villages are mostly into prostituion their men unable to work becasue of taking too much nasha ! It is the Bihari bhaiyas who are backbone of agriculture and other industry in Punjab. It is quite common to find Bhaiyas having land on lease in many villages. Bhaiyas are the future of Punajb. Go to Golden temple and visit langar and there are so many Bhaiyas. And so many Bhaiyas are taking amrit these days. while we are moving to west the Bhaiyas are filling the void back home. It is the Bhaiya that needs research and debate not the long lost Dalit.

[apnepart2]

whats their religion?

leaders like these are needed in todays times

1.bmp

[Guest jason12]

Veer Ji, a close friend of mine had the misfortune of listening to Sant Ramanand when they visited Manor Park Gurudwara in London a few years ago. He told me then how Ramanand spoke against Guru Arjan Sahib Ji and against Guru Gobind Singh Ji. When he heard of the shooting, he called me to say how happy he was.

This has been building up over time but hasn't got the attention of the media, unlike the Sacha Sauda or Baniarawala sagas.

Ramanand was asked politely (over many years!) to stop spreading lies about Guru Sahib, but he carried on.

What happened was inevitable and has nothing to do with caste. Nobody is stopped from going into or participating in regular Gurudwaras ( at least out of India) - what is the need for caste based places, that leave you open to be used by fake sants and add to the divisions in the panth.

Guru Sahib ended all discrimination based on caste, but we don't listen!

(PS: my friend is still a Granthi at Manor Park, I can pass you his contact details if you want to ask him directly).

I would give this guy 10,000 dollars if he can produce any evidence that Sant Rama Nand spoke bad about Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Guru Arjan Dev Ji's teachings were in Sant Rama Nand Ji's blood. Since you have his contact tell him to post whatever he has and also bring some witness. I had the fortune of listening to Sant Rama Nand and he always recited Guru Arjan Dev Ji's bani with love and energy.

the first step to end casteism is to stop calling yourself chamar or ravidassi. Stop going to caste creed based ravidassi gurdwara and chakk amrit. Become a sikh. But is guess it would be very difficult to play the victim card again without your caste. And why are u not saying anything against the loss of rs 7000 crore to panjab done by casteist hooligans? why don,t you petition the indian govt and un to label casteism as racism? But then you will have to close your racist place of worship.

If Ravidassi is caste than so is Sikhi (because you say Guru nanak created sikhsim). Isn't it? Taking amrit is not a requirement for us. Ravidassis are already seeing what "deeds" amritdharis are committing these days. So thank you very much.

[Guest jason12]

Agreed - the hooligans are complete idiots there is nothing in Guru Nanak or Ravidass Ji's teachings to say riot & loot Punjab when someone is killed.

FYI - people do not want to be "low-caste" they are labelled with it, we, as low caste Sikhs have been discriminated against since Sri Guru Gobind Singh JI Maharaj left this world. If I had my way I wouldnt have a label I wouldnt be of Chamar background. The below is my answer to someone who asked me the same question as you have:

"" People from low castes who are Sikhs and have been for generations & generations are told that we are not real Sikhs because we are of Chamar or Dalit background.... But you have people saying they are Jat Sikh or Ramgarhia Sikh. Ravidassi Sikh is a beautiful reference, taking the name of Ravidass Ji Maharaj who was from a low family. Why should people like you say we are not Sikhs - why should we be Chamar Sikhs?? Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's Hukam was for the Khalsa to be one regardless of caste - oppression is the reason why some low-caste people prefer to be Hindu, some Ravidassia & some like me who will always stay behind the Sikh banner regardless.""

...Waheguru...Waheguru...Waheguru...

using ravidassi sikh is casteist and in my opinion racist as well. Khalsa knows no creed and there is only one sikh guru in present times, it is guru granth sahib. khatris don't go around yelling gobinda sikh, do they? if one is pure, japs naam, is honest, treats everything equal then there is no discrimination against that person anywhere in sikhs. but certain people who are short on merit but want bigger role play the caste card to get to top. thats how the ravidassi movement was built and is taking a new shape under fake babas. and why are u not following guru gobind singhs hukam by not referring to yourself as Khalsa? did guru gobind singh coined the term ravidassi sikh? even Bhagat Ravidass would have no idea about racists using his name to gain economic advantage over a more deserving person using the short cut of caste. are you amrit chakk by the way?

apnepart2, you guys have to accept that Guru Gobind Singh or 10 gurus aren't the only gurus in this world. Also GGS is not a property of a particular religious group. Even the saints you call gurus today were called "fakes" by rulers or public of the their time. Guru Nanak was called "Kurahiya" i.e one who follows wrong path...Was he? They were people like you and me. Now look history has proved otherwise. Guru Gobind Singh was labelled terrorist by moghuls.. Was he?

You should have this much common sense to understand that guru gobind singh was not last guru on earth. He may be last for khalsas but not for others and he or any other sikh guru didn't prevent anybody from following GGS.

firstly it has not been proven that the KZF did this - only an email has been sent and anyone can knock up an email in 5 seconds and sign it Santa Claus it doesnt mean everyone should go beat him up or blame him when he is delivering presents.

secondly brother i was also born in "chamar family" and my only links with this background were buying nike leather trainers and thats about it lol

there are reports that he did beadbi of Guru Granth Sahib, that he made inflammatory statements against Gurmat, that sikhs were beaten severely by his chelay and that he was shot in retaliation. the reality is we wont know exactly what took place for many months whilst investigations take place.

do you think in this day and age we have lots and lots of bhagats? or lots of fakes? this "guru" tells people dont take amrit and join khalsa, instead he gives naam himself which just happens to be same naam given by fake radhasoami gurus.

i decided to take amrit later and am amritdhari now. i follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji only. i couldnt follow a human especially a dehdhari guru. we both know this dehdhari guru was shot for a reason. if you carry around chelay armed with weapons & goondas/bodyguards you have them for a reason. the people who follow this guy have caused enough frictions in ravidassia bhawans across europe and india. this guy was not telling people to follow Guru Granth Sahib and was instead gathering chelay.

why should we wash his dirty feet? cant he run his own bath? i'm sorry but i'm sick of these people using our community and manipulating innocent people to pay them all their money and bow to him and wash his feet and wipe his backside. why didnt he just get a job like the rest of us? truth is no human is perfect - only Guru Granth Sahib and Bani is perfect. humans say & do stupid things and get shot - this is reality.

the only way out of this is to stop following these fake people and instead follow what Guru Granth Sahib teaches, then we will find the answers to our questions. until then we will run around in circles following this human or that human who has no answers or doesnt even have a clue what he is doing in life.

You are not the one you are purporting to be. Shame on you. You are not chamar or amritdhari.