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Ravidass Gurudawara's Soon To Be Just Temples?


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well done

you just summed up why the so called backward and scheduled castes are soo alienated from Sikhi today

These have been the workers and footsoldiers for every struggle in Punjab for hudnnreds of years and just becuase they dont have well organised media outlets and politicians does not take away this fact

We say we hate the Hindus - we despise the 'Bhaiyas' we want the Dalits to keep their mouths shut always looking for someone to blame when the balme lies within

the truth is that most Sikhs today are not real followers of the Ten Masters and can give nothing but lip service to equality and brotherhood

the scene today is that that people in record numbers are alienated from Sikh because of hate, fanatacism and fasicst crap

Sikhs have to stand up and take responsibility for their actions

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the 'backward' castes are alienated because they see easy pickings and want more. how many of them are truly religious?

also you say these people are the workers and footsoldiers............my backside! i dont want to get in a caste debate but it was jatts and ramgarhias who formed the backbone of the army in the khalsa raj. and they have great politicians and media outlets, and a hell of a lot of apologists (like yourself). people like you always say: of course when they attack sikhs its perfectly justified but when sikhs do it to others, then its a massive crime and all sikhs should bear the stigma of it.

the hindus, dalits and bhaiyas take off of us and want more. our land. our history. our religion. when we say 'hang on a minute what are you doing?' they go crazy and attack us. its also funny how people like you love to blame muslims. maybe you should be a better sikh (if you are one that is).

people are alienated with sikhi because its turned into a hippy faith by people like you. where does it say in gurbani that we should be the slaves of others? that we have to be the ones responsible for others mistakes? yes sikhs only give lip service to equality and brotherhood. its time we sikhs overcame our differences and unite, and then take down the dushts who want us to be their dogs.

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Satnmais were never Ravidasi. Read History and try find this fact. Ghasidas was no better than Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb killed in the name of Islam. Ghazidas killed in the name of Hindu Casteism. Ghazidas threw and littered Hindu Idols. What is that attitude called? Sikhs leaders don't break or throw idols of Ravidas in garbage or that of Shiva or Ganesha. Satnamis were hair shaving (including eyebrows) sect of Hindus. Ghazidas got his initiation at the hands of Missionaries and at Jagannath Puri temple. They rebelled and were crushed by Aurangzeb. Ghazidas was a plundrer. He defeated small Mughal contigents and looted many villages in his exursion.

in History there have been numerous rebellions in every Empire. 2000 years ago people of Taxila (in western India) rebelled against Bindusara. They caused great alarm. And Bindusara had to send his powerful general and son, Ashoka, to take care of the rebellion. As an Emperor Ashoka fought great Kalinga war which caused immense loss of life, of state troops as well ordinary people. But what did the rebels reap except a place in history books?

There are not only Sikh Jatts, but Hindu and Muslim as well. Satnamis were Chamars, but they were not Ravidasi. I find it funny how you want to claim them as one of your own ! If you think chamars from one region who practise a faith will assist chamars from different region who practise different faith, what makes you think Jatts of one faith will not come to asisst other Jatts? As per you it is a caste fight, you are mixing religion into this and slandering Sikhs and their religion. You are using Sikhi as your scapegoat for venting out against your perceived discrimnation. Your dreams are wild and your imagination is even wilder. If you try another Ghazidas, you might cause great alarm, but you know very well where he ended up or his followers. And he was nowhere near Guru Gobind Singh. Guru Gobind Singh was not a naked faqir. He was a King. He had great calamities upon him, he was attacked by enemies from all directions but he Sustained and so did his Panth. Guru Gobind Singh did not fight for any personal gains. Neither did he fight for any particular group of people, thats so unlike Ghazidas or ravidasi Guru who want to promote only their own. The Singhs of Guru Gobind Singh are invincible!

And by the way your views are pretty screwed up on evrything including militancy in Punjab.

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Satnmais were never Ravidasi. Read History and try find this fact. Ghasidas was no better than Aurangzeb. Aurangzeb killed in the name of Islam. Ghazidas killed in the name of Hindu Casteism. Ghazidas threw and littered Hindu Idols. What is that attitude called? Sikhs leaders don't break or throw idols of Ravidas in garbage or that of Shiva or Ganesha. Satnamis were hair shaving (including eyebrows) sect of Hindus. Ghazidas got his initiation at the hands of Missionaries and at Jagannath Puri temple. They rebelled and were crushed by Aurangzeb. Ghazidas was a plundrer. He defeated small Mughal contigents and looted many villages in his exursion.

in History there have been numerous rebellions in every Empire. 2000 years ago people of Taxila (in western India) rebelled against Bindusara. They caused great alarm. And Bindusara had to send his powerful general and son, Ashoka, to take care of the rebellion. As an Emperor Ashoka fought great Kalinga war which caused immense loss of life, of state troops as well ordinary people. But what did the rebels reap except a place in history books?

There are not only Sikh Jatts, but Hindu and Muslim as well. Satnamis were Chamars, but they were not Ravidasi. I find it funny how you want to claim them as one of your own ! If you think chamars from one region who practise a faith will assist chamars from different region who practise different faith, what makes you think Jatts of one faith will not come to asisst other Jatts? As per you it is a caste fight, you are mixing religion into this and slandering Sikhs and their religion. You are using Sikhi as your scapegoat for venting out against your perceived discrimnation. Your dreams are wild and your imagination is even wilder. If you try another Ghazidas, you might cause great alarm, but you know very well where he ended up or his followers. And he was nowhere near Guru Gobind Singh. Guru Gobind Singh was not a naked faqir. He was a King. He had great calamities upon him, he was attacked by enemies from all directions but he Sustained and so did his Panth. Guru Gobind Singh did not fight for any personal gains. Neither did he fight for any particular group of people, thats so unlike Ghazidas or ravidasi Guru who want to promote only their own. The Singhs of Guru Gobind Singh are invincible!

And by the way your views are pretty screwed up on evrything including militancy in Punjab.

I didn't say Satnamis were Ravidassis. I just mentioned they were also chamars. As far as their plundering goes, it is ironic that you view Guru Gobind Singh's fight against Aurangzeb as a righteous while in the same tone discredit Sant Ghasidas's fight. You are drawing too many conclusions. What is wrong with Satnamis shaving? I didn't say they were sikhs. Shaving or no shaving doesn't make you any better. The problem with you guys is that you only believe what 10th Guru said while completely forgetting message in GGS. GGS says "It doesn't matter whether you keep long hair or bald head, it is you mind which plays games..." i.e "bhanve lambe kes kar, bhanve gharar mundaye, Jo kiya sab mun kiya, man hi mund mundaye". Now I don't have anything against 10th Guru. Why should I, but you guys rahter than focusing on the point start bickering like 5 years olds about minor things.

Secondly who talked about sikhs jatts getting together with other jatts? I am not saying satnamis are coming to assist us. You are reading too much nonsense into lines. What is implied here is that any community eventually will strike back if oppressed beyond a certain point. Same thing happened with Satnamis. They are still numbered quite large in India but concentrated in rajasthan, MP, UP etc. Low castes have saved sikhism at every point. Whether it was bringing head of Guru tegh Bahadur from delhi or Bhai Sangat Singh taking place of Guru Gobind Singh and letting Guru Gobind Singh slip away (I guess Chamkaur di Garhi) or Bhai Vir Singh being the prime misl after Guru Gobind Singh, or lately Bhai Ditt Singh (another chamar) who saved sikhism from extinction when only 18 lakh sikhs were left in 1920s.

The basic point to be made is that even if GGS doesn't endorse casteism, sikh society is sick with casteim. Now what is wrong with that. It is what it is and good that has come out now is that Ravidassis are not part of this caste mess anymore. We have our own Ravidassi religion representing 180 million people in every state of India.

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Secondly who talked about sikhs jatts getting together with other jatts? I am not saying satnamis are coming to assist us. You are reading too much nonsense into lines. What is implied here is that any community eventually will strike back if oppressed beyond a certain point. Same thing happened with Satnamis. They are still numbered quite large in India but concentrated in rajasthan, MP, UP etc. Low castes have saved sikhism at every point. Whether it was bringing head of Guru tegh Bahadur from delhi or Bhai Sangat Singh taking place of Guru Gobind Singh and letting Guru Gobind Singh slip away (I guess Chamkaur di Garhi) or Bhai Vir Singh being the prime misl after Guru Gobind Singh, or lately Bhai Ditt Singh (another chamar) who saved sikhism from extinction when only 18 lakh sikhs were left in 1920s.

lol, most of that is garbage. 18 lakh! yeah right.

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Guest jason12
so these ravidassia........what did they contribute to punjab? kill any invaders? create a secular state where all are allowed to practice their beliefs? no. and now they want more and more. i dont defend jatt casteism. but when chamars start rioting when they kill their own 'guru' and want more and more off of us...........what about when we have nothing to give them? will they take our lives as well? this attitude of theirs has to be nipped in the bud. and dont believe the well versed word salad of terror apologists like jason.

What Ravidassis aka chamars aka low castes did for sikhism, you guys are sitting on net because of them. Guru teg Bahadur was given a proper cremation thanks to Bhai Jaita, Bhai Sangat Singh, a chamar saved Guru Gobind Singh's life at chamkaur di garhi by putting on Guru Gobind Singh's kalgi, you guys were getting extinct during beginning of 20th century (only 18 lakhs), at that point Bhai Ditt Singh brought so many chamars into sikhsim (a bad move in hindsight), so many chamars were in guru's fauj, Sikh LI was called Chamar Regiment before independence. Your, I guess number one enemy in modern times, Indira gandi was gunned down by a low caste (Bhai Beant Singh).

As I stated, bramnins didn't fight, khasatriyas kings were enemies of guru gobind singh, vaisyas didn't fight so who were left, sudras off course. The whole existence of sikhism is due to low castes. it is no wonder guru gobind singh had to use low castes as nobody else was willing to help him. That's why he said, when somebody asked him as to why he is always with lower castes, he commented "enhi se saje hum hain, nahin to mo se karore hazar pare".

Secondly who talked about sikhs jatts getting together with other jatts? I am not saying satnamis are coming to assist us. You are reading too much nonsense into lines. What is implied here is that any community eventually will strike back if oppressed beyond a certain point. Same thing happened with Satnamis. They are still numbered quite large in India but concentrated in rajasthan, MP, UP etc. Low castes have saved sikhism at every point. Whether it was bringing head of Guru tegh Bahadur from delhi or Bhai Sangat Singh taking place of Guru Gobind Singh and letting Guru Gobind Singh slip away (I guess Chamkaur di Garhi) or Bhai Vir Singh being the prime misl after Guru Gobind Singh, or lately Bhai Ditt Singh (another chamar) who saved sikhism from extinction when only 18 lakh sikhs were left in 1920s.

lol, most of that is garbage. 18 lakh! yeah right.

lol, don't believe me. Go and read some good sikh scholar literature. Don't believe your gurudwara bhais, if that is where you get your knowledge from.

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Jason12ji,

I understand where you are coming from, though I have to disagree with your analysis of the actions of the true Sikh Kharkus pre- and post-84. There were a lot of terrible things done by opertaives of RAW and the GOI in the name of pro-Khalistani parties to erode Punjabi support for an independent Sikh state.

The Dalits and the other so-called low castes are the future of Sikhi and in India in general, and I feel that domination of Sikh affairs by pro-caste Jatt Sikhs will come to an end through natural causes, as it were, in the next few generations. Hopefully this, and the fact that Sikhs of this generation, particularly in the Western countries, are shedding the remnants of caste ideology brought over from India by our parents, will mean that Sikhi will again be practised as it should, and that Sikhs of any colour, caste or creed will be able to worship together in the House of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

I hope this will happen without recourse to a civil war fueled by caste, because apart from the innocent civilian casualties that war involves, all this will accomplish is to alter the hierarchy of the caste structure so that Dalits are at the top, and another caste will be subject to the abuse and discrimination that Dalits face today. I'm sure you will agree that this is not something anyone wants.

Regards,

K.

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As I stated, bramnins didn't fight, khasatriyas kings were enemies of guru gobind singh, vaisyas didn't fight so who were left, sudras off course. The whole existence of sikhism is due to low castes. it is no wonder guru gobind singh had to use low castes as nobody else was willing to help him. That's why he said, when somebody asked him as to why he is always with lower castes, he commented "enhi se saje hum hain, nahin to mo se karore hazar pare".

caste this, caste that, do you know about anything else?. so where do jatts and ramgarhias fit into all of this.........oh wait your just 'bigging up' your own lot. maybe you should get over your own caste issues before preaching to others. i'm sick of these people coming onto sikh forums after they killed their own spiritual teacher just to have a pop at sikhi and sikhs. and as for 'lower' castes being the future of sikhi, all i can say is how will they be any better than the other sikhs who still hold onto their caste?

What Ravidassis aka chamars aka low castes did for sikhism, you guys are sitting on net because of them. Guru teg Bahadur was given a proper cremation thanks to Bhai Jaita, Bhai Sangat Singh, a chamar saved Guru Gobind Singh's life at chamkaur di garhi by putting on Guru Gobind Singh's kalgi, you guys were getting extinct during beginning of 20th century (only 18 lakhs), at that point Bhai Ditt Singh brought so many chamars into sikhsim (a bad move in hindsight), so many chamars were in guru's fauj, Sikh LI was called Chamar Regiment before independence. Your, I guess number one enemy in modern times, Indira gandi was gunned down by a low caste (Bhai Beant Singh).

actually they were all sikhs - so they had no caste :D . do you get that through your thick skull?

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Guest jason12
Jason12ji,

I understand where you are coming from, though I have to disagree with your analysis of the actions of the true Sikh Kharkus pre- and post-84. There were a lot of terrible things done by opertaives of RAW and the GOI in the name of pro-Khalistani parties to erode Punjabi support for an independent Sikh state.

The Dalits and the other so-called low castes are the future of Sikhi and in India in general, and I feel that domination of Sikh affairs by pro-caste Jatt Sikhs will come to an end through natural causes, as it were, in the next few generations. Hopefully this, and the fact that Sikhs of this generation, particularly in the Western countries, are shedding the remnants of caste ideology brought over from India by our parents, will mean that Sikhi will again be practised as it should, and that Sikhs of any colour, caste or creed will be able to worship together in the House of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

I hope this will happen without recourse to a civil war fueled by caste, because apart from the innocent civilian casualties that war involves, all this will accomplish is to alter the hierarchy of the caste structure so that Dalits are at the top, and another caste will be subject to the abuse and discrimination that Dalits face today. I'm sure you will agree that this is not something anyone wants.

Regards,

K.

Kaljug Ji:

You would assume that when high caste sikhs emigrate to other countries especially western, there views regarding caste system would be softened. In fact, opposite has happened. Here in a city in US, when we had to do a marriage and we didn't had GGS and one of us went to a local gurudwara to get GGS to hold Akhand Path Sahib at home. First thing they asked us is "asi kaun hune aan". I mean this is ridiculous. They refused by saing that "asi chure chamaran nu maharaj nahin dayide".

Many of us got together and built our own Guru Ravidass temple. As far as level of casteism is concerend in western countries, high castes emigrated here in 1950s onwards when the caste prejudices were very strong in India. As they came here, their social development in Indian context completely stopped. Initially it wasn't a problem as very few chamars/balmikis were present here or if present, they were not in good positions. As time passed by, more and more ravidassis who were well educated came here and established their own temples. This is where problems began. The attitude from 60s was still around with the jatts and they started creating trouble in Guru Ravidass Temples. First it was merely jealousy as most of the people who clean washrooms at airport, drive taxi, drive trucks, work as a labor, work at gas stations are sikhs. I don't hosnestly mean to demean sikhs here as any work is honorable. They couldn't bear ravidassis doing clean jobs and making more mone than jatts in some cases. Secondly, the money that was coming as charawa to sikhs temples was now going to Guru Ravidass temple and it was unbearable. Chamars weren't going to sikh temples anymore. Same seemed to be problem in Vienna. This jealousy and diversion of charawa along with attitudes from 60s is cause of lot of troubles.

On personal note, while I was a foreman in a company, one of my employees was a jatt sikh working on shop floor. He knew about my caste. One day, he was told to clean floors around his punching press at the end of the shift, as any person who works on shop floor does. He balked at doing it and finally blurted out that if I will not clean the floor, how can he. Simply said, the guy was kicked out the very minute. His pleadings later on were ignored and when threatened with racial discrimination case, he had to cry his way out of all this. Eventually he was only brought back when he agreed to clean floor around other presses for two days. The haughtiness of caste had evaporetd into thin air. The point to be made is that caste prejudice is vary much here, sometimes to the extent of being ridiculous.

The murder of Sants would not have happened in India. In west, there is lot more hatred brought upon by terrorists who escaped India, lot of high caste sikhs who are more rigid in their views and fail to realize that ground realities have changed in India. The sikhs here are more orthodox as they have a continuous fear of loosing their values in the glamour of west. In India, by the way, you would find lot more rationality and religious tolerance in manistream sikhs. Not so in the West. The children of such high caste groups are equally poisioned by the caste prejudice. It may take couple more generation for this thing to be diluted. As you go to schools in west, you would see lot more caste slurs than ever allowed in Indian school.

The sikh diaspora, for the same reasons, I have learnt that in our neighbour country Canada is one of the most disliked religious groups. It is not sikh bashing but merely an expression of people impression of sikhs.

Warm Regards,

Jason12

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ahem, its still not clear who really killed the 'sant'. so the terrorists could quite easily be jealous ravidassia. it seems all this power and education given to you in the last 50 years has made you as sly and violent as the so called 'high' hindu castes.

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