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I agree with you that maala is not a kakkar, but it is the significance of the maala that is important and that meditating on gurmantr is important, just as important as a kakkar.

Guru Sahib did not make maala mandatory. One has to attach mind to the Shabad dhunni. No need for maala except for counting.

As Satpunga said, they gave HUKAM to the satguru of that time? that is what I have a problem with believing.

This is history. You are welcome to provide other proofs and explain what really happened. When Panj Pyare came forward they asked Guru Sahib to leave the fort and Guru Sahib having great respect for the tradition he had established and to show the authority of Panj Pyare in the Panth left the fort. Whether it was hukam or request, one thin gis clear that Panj Pyare tradition is important and Guru Roop. When Baba Banda Singh was given Amrit, Panj Pyare administered it not Guru Sahib alone. Baba Banda Singh was also accompanied by Panj Pyare to Punjab.

This is talking about Guru Nanak sahib transferring into another DEHDHARI form?

Try to understand. Nanak became Angad which means it happened by transfer of the Jot. Guru Nanak Sahib’s body lived some weeks after Guru Angad Ji became Guru. All Gurus called themselves “Nanak” and without the Jot Nanak no one was Guru. This Jot passed on to the Shabad in 1708.

This is an amazing tukh, still doesn't prove that Guru Granth Sahib is guru.

But it proves that Gurbani is the truth and Guru Granth Sahib is compilation of Gurbani. Do you know what the word “granth” means?

Again, this is correct the Guru is always with us... still doesn't prove the gaddi was given to Guru Granth Sahib.

Satguru is always with us which means only Shabad can be everywhere not a human. Since Guru Granth Sahib is all Gurbani, it is the true Guru.

So Guru Nanak wasn't Guru, it was always Guru Granth Sahib?

Shabad has always been the Guru because it is the revealed Bani of Akal Purakh. Body was not the Guru. Sikhs bowed to body only when Jot resided in it. No one bowed to Bhai Lehna Ji or Bhai Jetha Ji but when Jot Nanak entered their bodies, they became Satguru. Remember how Guru Arjan Dev Ji sat and slept on the floor while Gurbani was kept at a higher place and how Guru Harrai Ji abandoned his son for altering one word of Gurbani.

That is written by Bhagat Nand laal ji, so Bhagat Nand lal ji's Granth is what he is describing, that is not Guru Nanak Sahib saying that?

This shows your lack of understanding. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is explaining to Bhai Nand Laal Ji that His (guru’s) roop is the Granth (Guru Granth Sahib). Bhai Nand Laal Ji is writing about Gurmat and rehat which makes it crystal clear that Granth refers to Guru Granth Sahib. Bhai Nand Lal Ji never wrote a granth of his own.

where does this say Granth is Guru? or even shabad is guru?

What does “rehat of granth” means then? Granth is collection of Gurbani. The line means that rehat must be practiced according to what Guru Granth Sahib says not what a human says.

Why did you ignore other important references. Pay attention to these lines:

ਪ੍ਰਤਖਯ ਕਲਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਧਣੀ ਛੈ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਰਤੰਤਾ ।

ਦਾਸ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਫਤਿਹ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਦੰਤਾ । (ਸਰਬਲੋਹ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ)

ਪੋਥੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮਹਲ ਦਸ ਬਾਨੀ । ਸੋਧ ਲਹੋ ਪਦ ਜੋ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ।

(ਗੁਰ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ 10, ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

ਤਬ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਹਿਆ: ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਵੈਗਾ ਸੋ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਥੀਂ ਬਗੈਰੁ ਹੋਰਥੈ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਨ ਕਰਸੀ । ਅਤੈ ਜਿਥੇ ਸ਼ਬਦੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਥੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਨੀ

gurbani cvan not reject human guru. who wrote the gurbani ? OMG damn it was a dhedhari guru. and if they did write against human guru theil be writing against themselves.

You need to prove that Gurbani advocates human guru. Guru Nanak Sahib preached nirgun worship through Satguru who is always alive and does not die. Satguru is Akal Purakh himself and both are the same. I can provide numerous tuks from Gurbani which prove it beyond the doubt. Gurbani also says that there is only one Satguru in the world and that is Guru Sahib. Gurbani was written by a human body but it was revealed by Akal Purakh and still the physical body holds no significance in Sikhi. Guru Sahib never said that human body is the guru. He said that Shabad which lives forever is the true guru since it is the roop of Akal Purakh. In Sidh Goast Guru Ji says “Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela..”. Bani was written by Bhai Gurdas Ji but no one worships him. Mohsan Fani says the same thing that Nanak lives on. Ponder upon it.

now who did the gurus pass the gurgadhi to (im refearing to ad granth sahib ji the gurus who contrabuted as not all gurus contrabuted) pass the gurgadhi to. e.g guru guru angad ji passing gurugadhi to guru amar das ji. they passed the gurgathi to human dhedhari gurus so your statement is incorect and does not support singh saba granth guru concept.

Again, when did Guru Angad Dev Ji become Guru and when did Guru Amardas Ji become Guru? Clearly, when Jot Nanak entered. When they became Nanak is when they became Guru. They were revered as Gurus because they spoke the Shabad. Bhai Gurdas JI says:

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਲਹਿਣਾ ਜੀਂਵਦੇ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਸਿਰ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਫਿਰਾਯਾ॥ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤ ਮਿਲਾਇਕੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰੂਪ ਵਟਾਯਾ॥

ਲਖ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਸਕਈ ਆਚਰਜੇ ਆਚਰਜ ਦਿਖਾਯਾ॥ ਕਾਯਾਂ ਪਲਟ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਯਾ ॥45॥

During his life time he waved the canopy of Guru Seat on the head of Lahina (Guru Angad) and merged his own light into him. Guru Nanak now transformed himself. This mystery is incomprehensible for anybody that awe-inspiring (Nanak) accomplished a wonderful task. He converted (his body) into a new form. (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

In next pauri he makes it clear who the Guru is. Is it body or the Shabad? He says:

You should practice sustained mentation (dhyan) on the Shabad (Word), and consider it alone to be the image or statue of the Guru who is always with you. The seekers who are Guru-oriented acquire the knowledge of the Guru’s Word. This way they do not leave any space or distance between them and the Guru. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 3, Pauri 10)

The Word of the Guru is the image for worship; the Guru-oriented Sikhs listen to it and make use of the holy congregation as the metaphoric seat of the formless Creator. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 2, Pauri 11)

The Word of the guru is the physical body of the Guru. It becomes perceptible in the holy congregation. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 24, Pauri 25)

Clearly, Shabad was the Guru when Bhai Gurdas Ji wrote his Vaars. Shabad is the true image of Guru Nanak Sahib. See the facts yourself. Nowhere does Gurbani mention Raam Singh, Balak Singh or Jagjit Singh as the Guru. Human body is considered temporary and not given any significance.

when refearing to gurbani your must read the whole paragraph in this case the tuck carries on about what the guru is talking about. note partakh guru nistare this is the refearing to dhedhari guru.

You are mistaken. This is the false propaganda of Naamdharis. Guru Raam Das Ji wrote this shabad. He clearly says that Bani is the Guru in which all amrit are present. Clearly he is not advocating human guru but Bani Guru. He is not advocating his own physical body but the Shabad. If you think it refers to human guru then what is the translation of the entire shabad? Have you ever read the entire shabad in its context and did some veechar. Pay close attention to some important panktis in this shabad.

ਬਨੁ ਬਨੁ ਢੂਢਿ ਢੂਢਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਥਾਕੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਘਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥4॥

Wandering, rambling and roaming through the forests and woods, I exhausted myself, and then in my own home, the Perfect Guru saved me. ||4||

Who is the “Perfect Guru” that saved him? Next line makes it clear:

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

Gurbani is the true Guru not a human body. It was the Shabad Guru that saved him not human guru Raam Singh or Jagjjt Singh because only Shabad is everywhere. Next line (which you misinterpreted) says:

ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥5॥

Whatever Gurbani says (ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ), the humble devotee follows (ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ) and then (what happens?) Guru (Gurbani) grants (in reality) muktee to the Sikh. Translation in Punjabi agreed by all Sikh scholars is as follows:

ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸੇਵਕ (ਸਿੱਖ) ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ 'ਤੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਕਹੇ ਉੱਤੇ ਚੱਲਦਾ ਹੈ । ਇਸ ਨਾਲ ਗੁਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ (ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਯਾਨੀ ਯਕੀਨੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ) ਸੇਵਕ ਦਾ ਪਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਾ (ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਭਾਵ ਮੁਕਤੀ) ਕਰ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।

Word ਪਰਤਖਿ means ਸਚਮੁੱਚ ਨਾ ਕਿ ਦੇਹ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੋ ਕੇ. Your misinterpretation is contradictory. If we assume that “partakh” refers to human guru then why does the Shabad declare Gurbani the true Guru in first line? Gurbani is the true Guru that saves then what is use of human to appear? Shabad says:

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਜਨ ਪੀਛੈ ਜਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥7॥

When Waheguru does kirpa, he saves the devotee by blessing him with bhagtee. Bhagtee cannot be done without contemplating upon Naam (Shabad) which is in Gurbani. Human body is clearly missing from the entire Shabad. Your translation simply doesn’t fit the context of the Shabad. Present to me your version of translation backed by any credible Sikh scholar and then we will discuss it.

and even if you say that human gurus wore not guru then why are you refearing them to guru. shouldent you say baba nanek baba angad baba ram das and so on.

Because Jot Nanak resided in the body. Guru Granth Sahib was called “Pothi Sahib” before it was given gurugaddi. Don’t start throwing silly questions now.

what about jithe jayee bahee mera satguru

It means wherever the Shabad Guru is present in partakh but doesn’t mention that physical body has to be there. It doesn’t mention raam singh or jagjit singh. Wherever saroop of Guru Sahib goes, that place becomes holy.

ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ॥

He is the Satguru and the Shabad.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੈ ਸਬਦ ਸਬਦ ਮੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੈ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਜੀ ॥534॥

In Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji, he narrates that Sikhs asked Guru Hargobind Ji about how many more bodies will the Jot adopt and Guru Sahib replies 4 more and then Shabad will stay as the Guru. Read Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of pauri “Jug Jug Satguru Dharay Avtaari”. This proves that after Guru Gobind Singh Ji, guruship did not continue in human form.

Gurbani doesn’t mention human gurus nor does it advocate them. You have not provided a single Shabad to prove otherwise. Why do you believe in Gurbani if you believe in human guru? Gurbani says Satguru never sleeps and never comes and goes. Naamdhari gurus have died and are in cycle of reincarnation. No proof exists which backs up their flimsy stories.

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in the RSS documentary called Sava Lakh Se Ek Ladaun, there is a PHOTOGRAPH of Parkash Badal giving a large cheque to Jagjeet Naamdhari. this is how Badal stays in power as he bribes the poison sects to vote for him.

not heres the question, if Jagjeet Naamdhari was a guru, (let alone a satguru), would he really accept a cheque of black tainted money? would Guru Gobind Singh Ji ever accept anything from Aurangzeb?? ofcourse not.

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SARBLOH GRANTH OF DASAM PATHSHAA:

"In Ko Daras Satguru Ko darshan bolan Guru Shabad Gur Grantha.

Dvadas Roop Satigur Eh Kaiyat Dvadas Bhan Pargat Har Santha.

Partakya Kala Parbraham Dhanee Shai Granth Panth Khalsa Vartanta.

Das Gobind Fateh Satgur Ki Khalsa Granth Gur Roop Bidanta"

"Having the blessed audience (of the Khalsa) is equal to having the audience of the Guru, as long as they are singing the songs of love held within Guru Granth Sahib.

There are twelve forms of the Guru this is what I (Guru Gobind Singh) tell you,

There are twelve forms who revealed themselves I tell you Oh Saints.

This is the blatant arrow of power dispensed by the ultimate Creator,

Deal with the Guru Granth Guru Panth as the Khalsa.

The slave of the Deathless Being, Guru Gobind Singh, (does not recognise this victory as his), the victory is of supreme true Guru, the Khalsa and the Granth, these are very form and presence of the Guru."

Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji

END OF DEBATEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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As has been said in prior posts, where are the mods!?

These kookay has go so far as to refer to Nihang Singh Dastaar Bunga in a derogatory manner by calling it a 'twin tower' in one of the previous posts, which was like two or so pages back!

Not to mention questioning the authority of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj

At the end of the day, the situation speaks for itself - 99.9% of Sikhs acknowledge Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj as the Eternal Guru of the Sikhs.

By running this conspiricy theory of the so-called 'Satguru' Balak Sinh attaining Gurgaddi, Kookay are basically saying that the Sikh Panth are the stupidest bunch of people going around because we have got our belief system totally wrong for the past 300 years!

What bakwaas.

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SARBLOH GRANTH OF DASAM PATHSHAA:

"In Ko Daras Satguru Ko darshan bolan Guru Shabad Gur Grantha.

Dvadas Roop Satigur Eh Kaiyat Dvadas Bhan Pargat Har Santha.

Partakya Kala Parbraham Dhanee Shai Granth Panth Khalsa Vartanta.

Das Gobind Fateh Satgur Ki Khalsa Granth Gur Roop Bidanta"

"Having the blessed audience (of the Khalsa) is equal to having the audience of the Guru, as long as they are singing the songs of love held within Guru Granth Sahib.

There are twelve forms of the Guru this is what I (Guru Gobind Singh) tell you,

There are twelve forms who revealed themselves I tell you Oh Saints.

This is the blatant arrow of power dispensed by the ultimate Creator,

Deal with the Guru Granth Guru Panth as the Khalsa.

The slave of the Deathless Being, Guru Gobind Singh, (does not recognise this victory as his), the victory is of supreme true Guru, the Khalsa and the Granth, these are very form and presence of the Guru."

Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji

END OF DEBATEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

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