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no such person as GURU Ram Singh. He never actually called himself the Guru.

first i would like to ask you in sikh history never have any of the gurus called them selves guru. this becomes tu tu mai mai hankaar. the guru is being this.

secondly if you read the origional hukamnamas of satguru ram singh ji you will find no where satguru ji refearing that he is not guru and the granth sahib is guru. this is a clear fabrication made by dr ganda singh who published a book and started this whole guru ram singh ji said this and that. he has misinterpreted and added his own versions of satguru ram singh jis hukamnama. once again the singh saba have failed and have gone so low by editing guru ram singh jis hukamnamas. if you wish to read these hukamnamas you can get a gutka which has all of satguru ram singh jis hukamnamas from a namdhari darbar.

so rhe namdharis are creation of the british ? i thought were a creation of the rss and goi ? lol make stories up as much as you want. your theiries of namdharis being bla bla bla are a flaw within itself.

i dont think i should even bother to answer the mastana question you asked. the guru is beind being mastana as he has direct contact with akaal purakh.

the namdharis have not declared anyone to be their guru. notice once again in sikh history the guru is send by akaal purakh. the guru creates his sikhs and the sikhs fall at the feet of the guru. nowhere will you see the sikhs crfeating their guru except the singh saba where they claim 5 pyare sikhs to be the guru. how dare you say this. this is a physical challenge and a first degree insult to all our gurus. fabricated stories state that guru gobind singh ji had no choise but to accept the hukam of the 5 sikhs as they ordered their guru. think about it you can get not only 5 sikhs i dare you to get 10000000000000 sikhs and go to guru granth shaib ji and give guru granth sahib ji a hukam direct prder from yourself in form of guru roop 5 pyare. you would never do this let alone give hukam to guru gobind singh ji. what nonsense. this is an invention of the singh saba "christian formed" movement to support the ad granth guru. but we have our differences ill tolorate it but please dont insulkt guru ji by saying you can give a hukam to guru ji.

satpunga singfh show me proof that namdharis have added bani to ad granth sahib ji or dasam granth sahib ji. im not bothered to argue about this its clearly your own namdhar bashing ideas.

fateh

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so lets come back to the dirty pigs tooth huh. a nihang told me that muslims stay away from nihangs with pigs tooth in their dumala. seriously how thick can some of these nihangs get. how would a muslim know what that dangling stuff in your twin tower sized turban is ? you lot are right clowns.

Did you confirm this in any way? What about the delusion that Bhai Raam Singh will come back and is still alive?

It is not a tradition. the sakhi of guru gobid singh ji going thru machi wale where he then adorned blue clothes and dressed as a muslim peer was a war tactic used to go through the mougal armey. he adorned blue clothes because this was the mougals colour and when they went passed them he ripped these blue clothes off. he would have kept them on if blue was a khalsa colour but obviously it wasent. white is satjug da bana and blue and black is kaljugs bana.

Nonetheless, if blue color was against Gurmat then Guru Sahib would never have worn it. Keep in mind that it is kalyug and not satyug so why wear a color of different yug? When Muslims go to hajj they all wear white clothes. So white is a Muslim holy color. Blue color is a royal color which is why Sikhs wear it. Islamic color is green which is worn by peers. White is worn by high officials and leaders. Take a look at Saudi leaders, qazis and osama bin laden. None of them wear blue.

Mal jū▫ī bẖari▫ā nīlā kālā kẖiḏẖolṛā ṯin vaimukẖ vemukẖai no pā▫i▫ā.

The faithless baymukh sent out his faithless servant, wearing a blue-black coat, filled with filth and vermin

.

Blue and black are used as metaphors to represent ninda and chuglee. Read the next lines and it will make sense. Color red is used to represent glow of naam then why don't you wear red?

kooke do have the kirpan however it is symbolic in form. guru ram singh ji made a hukam to keep kirpan in kanga due to political reasons and the main reason of all is that in satjugs time naamsimran is the biggest shastar of all. hence kooke carry malas and do naamsimran with.

It is contradictory statement. If maala is the real weapon then why have a kirpan? What political reasons are there to justify carrying kirpan. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it mandatory for all Sikhs to carry kirpans not for political reasons but for the sake of protecting sainthood otherwise the fate will be that of Buddhism. Naamdharis are like seasonal frogs who will eventually disappear once the season of Hindu government passes. A friend of my uncle once went to Hong Kong and told me a funny story: Some new visitors came to the Gurdwara and stayed there. They were naamdharis and wished to go to a “special massage” place. Their excuse was that they wanted to test their chastity. When the girls started giving them massage they started shouting loudly “satguru raam singha hunn nahin reha janda, horr ni wait hundee” and then they did bajjar kurehats and kept shouting “dhan satguru raam singh”. What good did the maala do then? Total pakhand.

Panj Pyare tradition was started by Guru Nanak Sahib Ji and every Guru kept Panj Pyare. Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Amrit to five Sikhs first and took Amrit from them. The tradition of giving Naam was kept alive by giving gurugaddi to Granth and panth. No human was appointed. Can you provide proofs from 18th century to back up your claims?

Why not discuss the principles and beliefs rather than questioning people’s actions. Otherwise I can bring out misdeeds of many naamdharis but that wouldn’t do anything. If you believe in Gurbani then why follow a human guru who will die eventually and then you will have to find another one. Gurbani itself speaks against human gurus and your guru jagjit raam and is simply a puppet of the government. In Sikh kingdom he wouldn’t last a second. Naamdharis are not Sikhs.

Sukhnidaan is also a Guru-ordained tradition

I assume you are not mixing 'Sukhnidhaan' with Bhang? If you are, please provide some reference. Some Nihungs prepare shardayee and call if Sukhnidhaan but bhang is not mixed in it. Gurbani calls Waheguru the real Sukhnidhaan and speaks against bhang.

http://www.amritworld.com/main/articles/cannabis/

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ofcourse the panj piyaare are the guru. thats why guru gobind singh ji took amrit from them. thats y it is panj piyaareat the amrit sanchaars.

aeroo u talk a load of rubbish. u aint a sikh. and ur jagjeet pakhandi kooka looks like a troll.

read GURU Granth Sahib Ji baani and understand it.

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Did you confirm this in any way? What about the delusion that Bhai Raam Singh will come back and is still alive?

Even if you respect 'bhai' ram singh as a sikh, a sikh never lies. He said that he will come back therefore he WILL come back. Why would a Gursikh lie?

Nonetheless, if blue color was against Gurmat then Guru Sahib would never have worn it. Keep in mind that it is kalyug and not satyug so why wear a color of different yug? When Muslims go to hajj they all wear white clothes. So white is a Muslim holy color. Blue color is a royal color which is why Sikhs wear it. Islamic color is green which is worn by peers. White is worn by high officials and leaders. Take a look at Saudi leaders, qazis and osama bin laden. None of them wear blue.

Blue is a royal colour?

ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

Nīl vasṯar pahir hovėh parvāṇ.

Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.

why would you wear blue to impress muslim rulers, 'peers'?

It is contradictory statement. If maala is the real weapon then why have a kirpan? What political reasons are there to justify carrying kirpan. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it mandatory for all Sikhs to carry kirpans not for political reasons but for the sake of protecting sainthood otherwise the fate will be that of Buddhism.

As you mention, Guru Gobind Singh made it hukam for ALL sikhs to keep panj kakkar, the maala is the most important aspect of today taught by ALL guru's. So is the Kirpaan more important than a maala? Please clear this up, thanks.

A friend of my uncle once went to Hong Kong and told me a funny story: Some new visitors came to the Gurdwara and stayed there. They were naamdharis and wished to go to a “special massage” place. Their excuse was that they wanted to test their chastity. When the girls started giving them massage they started shouting loudly “satguru raam singha hunn nahin reha janda, horr ni wait hundee” and then they did bajjar kurehats and kept shouting “dhan satguru raam singh”. What good did the maala do then? Total pakhand.

lol amazing story, good fiction. How about all the different 'funny' stories sikhs have got themselves into over the years, don't want to go into it firstly because there will be too many and secondly because it will be doing besti of who I call my Sikh brothers.

Panj Pyare tradition was started by Guru Nanak Sahib Ji and every Guru kept Panj Pyare. Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Amrit to five Sikhs first and took Amrit from them. The tradition of giving Naam was kept alive by giving gurugaddi to Granth and panth. No human was appointed. Can you provide proofs from 18th century to back up your claims?

Sorry, can I have proof for this please, Guru Nanak sahib travelled with 3 companions as far as I know...

Also the tradition of giving naam is described in bani

Can you provide proof that a DEHDHARI GURU gave gaddi to an inanimate Guru?

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Even if you respect 'bhai' ram singh as a sikh, a sikh never lies. He said that he will come back therefore he WILL come back. Why would a Gursikh lie?

Provide proof. He may come back but not as Raam Singh because the body has been destroyed. His soul may have entered in another body and right now he could be in his third birth. But once one dies, they never come back as the same person.

ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

Nīl vasṯar pahir hovėh parvāṇ.

Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.

why would you wear blue to impress muslim rulers, 'peers'?

Blue is a royal color and not a Muslim color. Peers wear green color which is forbidden in Sikhi. Prove that blue is Muslim color and what significance does it hold for them? Word “Neel” in Kashmiri language means green. You did not respond to my points about white color. Why? Muslims wear white to hajj and all high officials in Islam wear white. Why are you trying to please them? Nehru wore white his entire political life. Are you trying to please him?

As you mention, Guru Gobind Singh made it hukam for ALL sikhs to keep panj kakkar, the maala is the most important aspect of today taught by ALL guru's. So is the Kirpaan more important than a maala? Please clear this up, thanks.

Maala is not a kakkar and Guru Sahib did not advocate keeping maala. Remembering Waheguru all the time and keeping his name in your heart is the real maala.

lol amazing story, good fiction. How about all the different 'funny' stories sikhs have got themselves into over the years, don't want to go into it firstly because there will be too many and secondly because it will be doing besti of who I call my Sikh brothers.

That was my point. Don’t judge entire community base don few people’s personal stories. Deal with facts. Discuss beliefs and principles not people.

Sorry, can I have proof for this please, Guru Nanak sahib travelled with 3 companions as far as I know...

Bhagat Jaswant Singh wrote a pothi in which he gives names of Panj Pyare. This tradition was not started in 1699. Every Guru had five beloved Sikhs. Guru Sahib was accompanied by many Sikhs in udasis. Their names are well written in janamsakhis. Guru Arjan Dev Ji had Baba Buddha Ji, Bhai Gurdas JI, Bhai Manjh Ji, Bhai Behlo Ji etc. Guru Hargobind Ji had Baba Buddha Ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Bidhi Chand Ji and other Sikhs. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji went to Delhi with five Sikhs. Three became shaheed and two brought back the sees. Guru Harkrishan Ji went to Delhi with five Sikhs.

Can you provide proof that a DEHDHARI GURU gave gaddi to an inanimate Guru?

I have explained to you before but for some reason you don’t want to face the facts. Shabad has always been the Guru not a human body. This is why every Guru calls himself “Nanak” because Nanak is Jot of Akal Purakh which now resides in Shabad. Mohsan Fani states that it is firm belief of Sikhs that Guru Nanak never died but became Angad and this way Nanak lives on. Bhai Gurdas Ji says the same. Consider following quotes:

ਜੋਤਿ ਓਹਾ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਾਇ ਸਹਿ ਕਾਇਆ ਫੇਰਿ ਪਲਟੀਐ ॥

They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body. (Ang 966)

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਲਹਿਣਾ ਜੀਂਵਦੇ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਸਿਰ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਫਿਰਾਯਾ॥ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤ ਮਿਲਾਇਕੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰੂਪ ਵਟਾਯਾ॥

ਲਖ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਸਕਈ ਆਚਰਜੇ ਆਚਰਜ ਦਿਖਾਯਾ॥ ਕਾਯਾਂ ਪਲਟ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਯਾ ॥45॥

During his life time he waved the canopy of Guru Seat on the head of Lahina (Guru Angad) and merged his own light into him. Guru Nanak now transformed himself. This mystery is incomprehensible for anybody that awe-inspiring (Nanak) accomplished a wonderful task. He converted (his body) into a new form. (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

Gurbani is the true Guru. Here is why:

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained. (Ang 982)

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥

O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (Ang 308)

True Guru never takes birth and never dies. He doesn’t sleep, get hungry etc. He is with His Sikhs all the time. A human takes birth and dies and can only be at one place at a time.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. (Ang 759)

Gurbani rejects human guru. One who himself is in the cycle of death and birth cannot save others. One being born in a human body is the clear proof that he is not mukat and therefore cannot give muktee. Shabad always lives on. Shabad is the spirit of Akal Purakh and embodiment of Guru Sahib. It is the power of Shabad that transformed depressed and oppressed people into saint-warriors.

Proofs that Guru Granth Sahib is Guru.

ਦੂਸਰ ਰੂਪ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਾਨਹੁ । ਆਪਨ ਅੰਗ ਮੇਰੇ ਕਰ ਮਾਨਹੁ ।

ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਅੱਛਰ ਸੋ ਲਹਹੁ । ਬਾਤ ਜਥਾਰਥ ਤੁਮ ਸੋਂ ਕਹਹੁੰ ।

ਜੋ ਸਿਖ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੀ ਚਾਹਿ । ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਆਹਿ ।…

ਜੋ ਮਮ ਸਾਥ ਚਹੇ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਤ । ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਹਿ ਸਾਥ ।

ਜੋ ਮੁਝ ਬਚਨ ਸੁਨਨ ਕੀ ਚਾਹਿ । ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਚਿਤ ਲਾਇ ।

ਮੇਰਾ ਰੂਪ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਾਨ । ਇਸ ਮੇਂ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚਕ ਮਾਨ ।

ਤੀਸਰ ਰੂਪ ਸਿਖ ਹੈ ਮੋਰ । ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਰਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਨਿਸ ਭੋਰ । (ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ)

“The Granth is my second self and should be taken as such for me. A Sikh who wants to see me should a look at the Granth Sahib. One who wishes to talk to me should read the Granth and contemplate over it. One who is anxious to listen to me talk, he or she should read the Granth Sahib and listen to its recitation with attention. Consider the Granth as my own self. Have not the least doubt about it.”

ਪ੍ਰਤਖਯ ਕਲਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਧਣੀ ਛੈ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਰਤੰਤਾ ।

ਦਾਸ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਫਤਿਹ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਦੰਤਾ । (ਸਰਬਲੋਹ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ)

ਮੌਰ ਬਚਨ ਸੋ ਕਰਹੁ ਪਯਾਰਾ । ਖੜਗ ਕੇਤੁ ਹੌ ਰੱਛਕ ਥਾਰਾ ।

ਝੂਠੇ ਸਰਬ ਉਪਾਵ ਤਿਆਗਹੁ । ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਧੁਜ ਕੀ ਚਰਨੀ ਲਾਗਹੁ ।

ਪੋਥੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮਹਲ ਦਸ ਬਾਨੀ । ਸੋਧ ਲਹੋ ਪਦ ਜੋ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ।

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਬਰ ਬੁਧਾ । ਖਲ ਦਲ ਸਾਥ ਕਰਹੁ ਨਿਤ ਜੁੱਧਾ ।

(ਗੁਰ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ 10, ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਸਿਖ ਲੇਇ, ਰਹਤ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ।

ਜੋ ਬੇੜਾ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਿਆ, ਔਰ ਨ ਭਰਮਹਿ ਪੰਥ । (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿੰਘ)

ਤਬ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਹਿਆ: ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਵੈਗਾ ਸੋ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਥੀਂ ਬਗੈਰੁ ਹੋਰਥੈ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਨ ਕਰਸੀ । ਅਤੈ ਜਿਥੇ ਸ਼ਬਦੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਥੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਨੀ, ਹੋਰ ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਮਸਾਣੀ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਵਣਾ । ਪੰਡਤ ਪਾਂਧੇ ਮੀਏਂ ਮਹਤੇ ਦੀ ਮਤ ਨਹੀ ਲੈਣੀ ਅਤੇ ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਹੋਸੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਥੀਂ ਸਿਵਾਇ ਕਰਮ ਕਿਰਿਆ, ਭਦਣੁ, ਉਸਤਰਾ ਨਹੀ ਲਾਵਣਾ । ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ, ਤਰਪਣੁ ਪੂਜਾ, ਅਰਚਾ, ਧੋਤੀ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ, ਸਿਰੀਂ ਨੰਗਾ ਖਾਵਣਾ ਨਾਹੀ । ਨੰਗੀ ਬੋਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਅਗੈ ਬੈਠਣਾ ਨਾਹੀ । ਜੋ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਹੋਸੀ ਸੋ ਇਤਨੀਆਂ ਵਸਤੂਆਂ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਨਾ ਆਵਸੀ । (ਸਾਖੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਕੀ ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ)

Now you prove that Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave gurugaddi to any human in 1708.

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jujhar singh, you know that kirpan is necessary for a sikh to wear, but is it necessary to wear a maala? you already know the answer to the question you asked.

also if blue is a royal colour then why woudnt sum1 wear blue to please the muslim rulers, who were seen as royal?

seems to me you trying to be a smart alec.

and failing.

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Some Namdharis in the past have said those who wear blue will go to hell.

This is very funny. This faith has nothing to do with sikh religion.

It is Hindu sect that lie about Sikh History.

Its clear what has to be done to people who change sikh history to suit themselves.

Dehtaris such as Jagjit singh who claim gurgaddi deserves to be re-born again as a Snake.

All his followers will deserve to be reincarnated as the worms within the snake and will eat away. Jagjit singh will suffer for his actions. He does not see it now, but there is dire consequences in store for him.

If they so Blue-phobic then they are going to have a hard time living since the sky allways appears Blue by sight. They all got to live under the sky.

They wear white as a sign of purity, yet their actions are not pure. Their very belief is impure since its based on altering the history of the 10th Guru. What purity can come of that??? They can wear white but their hearts will allways be Black.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief. They even entitled to call Jagjit sing their Guru, but NOT at the expense of changing the Sikh history of the Gurgaddhi.

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Guru Gobind Singh Ji siad that a time will come when His "sikh" wil no longer believe His words and Hukam. and we can see that happening around us in the world.

- Satpunga Singh

how are you so sure that this doesn't apply to your beliefs?

Blue is a royal color and not a Muslim color. Peers wear green color which is forbidden in Sikhi. Prove that blue is Muslim color and what significance does it hold for them? Word “Neel” in Kashmiri language means green. You did not respond to my points about white color. Why? Muslims wear white to hajj and all high officials in Islam wear white. Why are you trying to please them? Nehru wore white his entire political life. Are you trying to please him?

I'm going to have to research the kashmiri language, but how do you know this bani was written in kashmiri language?

If Muslims wear white ONLY to do hajj, it doesn't mean that we are pleasing them, you know that as well as I do. I do not know about Nehru's lifestyle nor his entire background so I cannot comment on that.

Maala is not a kakkar and Guru Sahib did not advocate keeping maala. Remembering Waheguru all the time and keeping his name in your heart is the real maala.

I agree with you that maala is not a kakkar, but it is the significance of the maala that is important and that meditating on gurmantr is important, just as important as a kakkar.

Bhagat Jaswant Singh wrote a pothi in which he gives names of Panj Pyare. This tradition was not started in 1699. Every Guru had five beloved Sikhs. Guru Sahib was accompanied by many Sikhs in udasis. Their names are well written in janamsakhis. Guru Arjan Dev Ji had Baba Buddha Ji, Bhai Gurdas JI, Bhai Manjh Ji, Bhai Behlo Ji etc. Guru Hargobind Ji had Baba Buddha Ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Bidhi Chand Ji and other Sikhs. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji went to Delhi with five Sikhs. Three became shaheed and two brought back the sees. Guru Harkrishan Ji went to Delhi with five Sikhs.

As Satpunga said, they gave HUKAM to the satguru of that time? that is what I have a problem with believing. Nothing to do with the fact sikhs travelled with their Guru.

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਲਹਿਣਾ ਜੀਂਵਦੇ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਸਿਰ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਫਿਰਾਯਾ॥ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤ ਮਿਲਾਇਕੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰੂਪ ਵਟਾਯਾ॥

ਲਖ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਸਕਈ ਆਚਰਜੇ ਆਚਰਜ ਦਿਖਾਯਾ॥ ਕਾਯਾਂ ਪਲਟ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਯਾ ॥45॥

During his life time he waved the canopy of Guru Seat on the head of Lahina (Guru Angad) and merged his own light into him. Guru Nanak now transformed himself. This mystery is incomprehensible for anybody that awe-inspiring (Nanak) accomplished a wonderful task. He converted (his body) into a new form. (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

This is talking about Guru Nanak sahib transferring into another DEHDHARI form? So you're clearly proving my point. Thanks for the tukh by the way

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥

O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (Ang 308)

This is an amazing tukh, still doesn't prove that Guru Granth Sahib is guru.

True Guru never takes birth and never dies. He doesn’t sleep, get hungry etc. He is with His Sikhs all the time. A human takes birth and dies and can only be at one place at a time.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. (Ang 759)

Again, this is correct the Guru is always with us... still doesn't prove the gaddi was given to Guru Granth Sahib.

Gurbani rejects human guru. One who himself is in the cycle of death and birth cannot save others. One being born in a human body is the clear proof that he is not mukat and therefore cannot give muktee. Shabad always lives on. Shabad is the spirit of Akal Purakh and embodiment of Guru Sahib. It is the power of Shabad that transformed depressed and oppressed people into saint-warriors.

So Guru Nanak wasn't Guru, it was always Guru Granth Sahib? So the mere fact that bani was transferred THROUGH Guru Nanak's pavitar deh form doesn't it condescend what you are saying how is Shabad going to write itself or show itself without having a partakh Guru? I don't understand?

Proofs that Guru Granth Sahib is Guru.

ਦੂਸਰ ਰੂਪ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਾਨਹੁ । ਆਪਨ ਅੰਗ ਮੇਰੇ ਕਰ ਮਾਨਹੁ ।

ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਅੱਛਰ ਸੋ ਲਹਹੁ । ਬਾਤ ਜਥਾਰਥ ਤੁਮ ਸੋਂ ਕਹਹੁੰ ।

ਜੋ ਸਿਖ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੀ ਚਾਹਿ । ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਆਹਿ ।…

ਜੋ ਮਮ ਸਾਥ ਚਹੇ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਤ । ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਹਿ ਸਾਥ ।

ਜੋ ਮੁਝ ਬਚਨ ਸੁਨਨ ਕੀ ਚਾਹਿ । ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਚਿਤ ਲਾਇ ।

ਮੇਰਾ ਰੂਪ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਾਨ । ਇਸ ਮੇਂ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚਕ ਮਾਨ ।

ਤੀਸਰ ਰੂਪ ਸਿਖ ਹੈ ਮੋਰ । ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਰਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਨਿਸ ਭੋਰ । (ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ)

“The Granth is my second self and should be taken as such for me. A Sikh who wants to see me should a look at the Granth Sahib. One who wishes to talk to me should read the Granth and contemplate over it. One who is anxious to listen to me talk, he or she should read the Granth Sahib and listen to its recitation with attention. Consider the Granth as my own self. Have not the least doubt about it.”

That is written by Bhagat Nand laal ji, so Bhagat Nand lal ji's Granth is what he is describing, that is not Guru Nanak Sahib saying that? Again another baseless tukh that you try to prove your 18th centuary falseness.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਸਿਖ ਲੇਇ, ਰਹਤ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ।

ਜੋ ਬੇੜਾ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਿਆ, ਔਰ ਨ ਭਰਮਹਿ ਪੰਥ । (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿੰਘ)

where does this say Granth is Guru? or even shabad is guru?

Now you prove that Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave gurugaddi to any human in 1708.
- They didn't they gave it in 1708, it was some time after.
seems to me you trying to be a smart alec.

and failing.

Seems to me that this is a feeling I am having when I read bani, and not because im a staunch namdhari or because i want to oppose the world. It is just a feeling I get, I'm sure many of you have had it with Guru Granth Sahib, but if some one can prove the fact that there are NO living Guru's after Guru Gobind Singh properly and take this shanka out of my mind I will solely go and take amrit from panj pyareh in the minute after they tell me.

No point answering to Southall Youth, he has nothing to do with Sikhi and is clearly not open minded unlike Bijla Singh and others on this website.

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ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go. (Ang 759)

Gurbani rejects human guru. One who himself is in the cycle of death and birth cannot save others. One being born in a human body is the clear proof that he is not mukat and therefore cannot give muktee. Shabad always lives on. Shabad is the spirit of Akal Purakh and embodiment of Guru Sahib. It is the power of Shabad that transformed depressed and oppressed people into saint-warriors.

singh saab you have misinterpreted this completely. in gurbani this is refearing to akaalpurakh as the true guru. akaalpurakh where mool mantar describes him can be related to this tuk. gurbani cvan not reject human guru. who wrote the gurbani ? OMG damn it was a dhedhari guru. and if they did write against human guru theil be writing against themselves. now who did the gurus pass the gurgadhi to (im refearing to ad granth sahib ji the gurus who contrabuted as not all gurus contrabuted) pass the gurgadhi to. e.g guru guru angad ji passing gurugadhi to guru amar das ji. they passed the gurgathi to human dhedhari gurus so your statement is incorect and does not support singh saba granth guru concept.

you stated this tuck ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

baanee guroo guroo hai baanee vich baanee anmrith saarae ||

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

10 Nat Guru Ram Das

ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥੫॥

gur baanee kehai saevak jan maanai parathakh guroo nisathaarae ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||

when refearing to gurbani your must read the whole paragraph in this case the tuck carries on about what the guru is talking about. note partakh guru nistare this is the refearing to dhedhari guru.

and even if you say that human gurus wore not guru then why are you refearing them to guru. shouldent you say baba nanek baba angad baba ram das and so on.

what about jithe jayee bahee mera satguru

again refearing to partack guru where the guru goes where the guru sits down.

fateh

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I agree with you that maala is not a kakkar, but it is the significance of the maala that is important and that meditating on gurmantr is important, just as important as a kakkar.

Guru Sahib did not make maala mandatory. One has to attach mind to the Shabad dhunni. No need for maala except for counting.

As Satpunga said, they gave HUKAM to the satguru of that time? that is what I have a problem with believing.

This is history. You are welcome to provide other proofs and explain what really happened. When Panj Pyare came forward they asked Guru Sahib to leave the fort and Guru Sahib having great respect for the tradition he had established and to show the authority of Panj Pyare in the Panth left the fort. Whether it was hukam or request, one thin gis clear that Panj Pyare tradition is important and Guru Roop. When Baba Banda Singh was given Amrit, Panj Pyare administered it not Guru Sahib alone. Baba Banda Singh was also accompanied by Panj Pyare to Punjab.

This is talking about Guru Nanak sahib transferring into another DEHDHARI form?

Try to understand. Nanak became Angad which means it happened by transfer of the Jot. Guru Nanak Sahib’s body lived some weeks after Guru Angad Ji became Guru. All Gurus called themselves “Nanak” and without the Jot Nanak no one was Guru. This Jot passed on to the Shabad in 1708.

This is an amazing tukh, still doesn't prove that Guru Granth Sahib is guru.

But it proves that Gurbani is the truth and Guru Granth Sahib is compilation of Gurbani. Do you know what the word “granth” means?

Again, this is correct the Guru is always with us... still doesn't prove the gaddi was given to Guru Granth Sahib.

Satguru is always with us which means only Shabad can be everywhere not a human. Since Guru Granth Sahib is all Gurbani, it is the true Guru.

So Guru Nanak wasn't Guru, it was always Guru Granth Sahib?

Shabad has always been the Guru because it is the revealed Bani of Akal Purakh. Body was not the Guru. Sikhs bowed to body only when Jot resided in it. No one bowed to Bhai Lehna Ji or Bhai Jetha Ji but when Jot Nanak entered their bodies, they became Satguru. Remember how Guru Arjan Dev Ji sat and slept on the floor while Gurbani was kept at a higher place and how Guru Harrai Ji abandoned his son for altering one word of Gurbani.

That is written by Bhagat Nand laal ji, so Bhagat Nand lal ji's Granth is what he is describing, that is not Guru Nanak Sahib saying that?

This shows your lack of understanding. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is explaining to Bhai Nand Laal Ji that His (guru’s) roop is the Granth (Guru Granth Sahib). Bhai Nand Laal Ji is writing about Gurmat and rehat which makes it crystal clear that Granth refers to Guru Granth Sahib. Bhai Nand Lal Ji never wrote a granth of his own.

where does this say Granth is Guru? or even shabad is guru?

What does “rehat of granth” means then? Granth is collection of Gurbani. The line means that rehat must be practiced according to what Guru Granth Sahib says not what a human says.

Why did you ignore other important references. Pay attention to these lines:

ਪ੍ਰਤਖਯ ਕਲਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਧਣੀ ਛੈ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਰਤੰਤਾ ।

ਦਾਸ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਫਤਿਹ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਦੰਤਾ । (ਸਰਬਲੋਹ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ)

ਪੋਥੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮਹਲ ਦਸ ਬਾਨੀ । ਸੋਧ ਲਹੋ ਪਦ ਜੋ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ।

(ਗੁਰ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ 10, ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ)

ਤਬ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਕਹਿਆ: ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਵੈਗਾ ਸੋ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਥੀਂ ਬਗੈਰੁ ਹੋਰਥੈ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਨ ਕਰਸੀ । ਅਤੈ ਜਿਥੇ ਸ਼ਬਦੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਥੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਨੀ

gurbani cvan not reject human guru. who wrote the gurbani ? OMG damn it was a dhedhari guru. and if they did write against human guru theil be writing against themselves.

You need to prove that Gurbani advocates human guru. Guru Nanak Sahib preached nirgun worship through Satguru who is always alive and does not die. Satguru is Akal Purakh himself and both are the same. I can provide numerous tuks from Gurbani which prove it beyond the doubt. Gurbani also says that there is only one Satguru in the world and that is Guru Sahib. Gurbani was written by a human body but it was revealed by Akal Purakh and still the physical body holds no significance in Sikhi. Guru Sahib never said that human body is the guru. He said that Shabad which lives forever is the true guru since it is the roop of Akal Purakh. In Sidh Goast Guru Ji says “Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela..”. Bani was written by Bhai Gurdas Ji but no one worships him. Mohsan Fani says the same thing that Nanak lives on. Ponder upon it.

now who did the gurus pass the gurgadhi to (im refearing to ad granth sahib ji the gurus who contrabuted as not all gurus contrabuted) pass the gurgadhi to. e.g guru guru angad ji passing gurugadhi to guru amar das ji. they passed the gurgathi to human dhedhari gurus so your statement is incorect and does not support singh saba granth guru concept.

Again, when did Guru Angad Dev Ji become Guru and when did Guru Amardas Ji become Guru? Clearly, when Jot Nanak entered. When they became Nanak is when they became Guru. They were revered as Gurus because they spoke the Shabad. Bhai Gurdas JI says:

ਥਾਪਿਆ ਲਹਿਣਾ ਜੀਂਵਦੇ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਸਿਰ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਫਿਰਾਯਾ॥ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤ ਮਿਲਾਇਕੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰੂਪ ਵਟਾਯਾ॥

ਲਖ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਸਕਈ ਆਚਰਜੇ ਆਚਰਜ ਦਿਖਾਯਾ॥ ਕਾਯਾਂ ਪਲਟ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਯਾ ॥45॥

During his life time he waved the canopy of Guru Seat on the head of Lahina (Guru Angad) and merged his own light into him. Guru Nanak now transformed himself. This mystery is incomprehensible for anybody that awe-inspiring (Nanak) accomplished a wonderful task. He converted (his body) into a new form. (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

In next pauri he makes it clear who the Guru is. Is it body or the Shabad? He says:

You should practice sustained mentation (dhyan) on the Shabad (Word), and consider it alone to be the image or statue of the Guru who is always with you. The seekers who are Guru-oriented acquire the knowledge of the Guru’s Word. This way they do not leave any space or distance between them and the Guru. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 3, Pauri 10)

The Word of the Guru is the image for worship; the Guru-oriented Sikhs listen to it and make use of the holy congregation as the metaphoric seat of the formless Creator. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 2, Pauri 11)

The Word of the guru is the physical body of the Guru. It becomes perceptible in the holy congregation. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 24, Pauri 25)

Clearly, Shabad was the Guru when Bhai Gurdas Ji wrote his Vaars. Shabad is the true image of Guru Nanak Sahib. See the facts yourself. Nowhere does Gurbani mention Raam Singh, Balak Singh or Jagjit Singh as the Guru. Human body is considered temporary and not given any significance.

when refearing to gurbani your must read the whole paragraph in this case the tuck carries on about what the guru is talking about. note partakh guru nistare this is the refearing to dhedhari guru.

You are mistaken. This is the false propaganda of Naamdharis. Guru Raam Das Ji wrote this shabad. He clearly says that Bani is the Guru in which all amrit are present. Clearly he is not advocating human guru but Bani Guru. He is not advocating his own physical body but the Shabad. If you think it refers to human guru then what is the translation of the entire shabad? Have you ever read the entire shabad in its context and did some veechar. Pay close attention to some important panktis in this shabad.

ਬਨੁ ਬਨੁ ਢੂਢਿ ਢੂਢਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਥਾਕੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਘਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥4॥

Wandering, rambling and roaming through the forests and woods, I exhausted myself, and then in my own home, the Perfect Guru saved me. ||4||

Who is the “Perfect Guru” that saved him? Next line makes it clear:

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

Gurbani is the true Guru not a human body. It was the Shabad Guru that saved him not human guru Raam Singh or Jagjjt Singh because only Shabad is everywhere. Next line (which you misinterpreted) says:

ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥5॥

Whatever Gurbani says (ਗੁਰੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ), the humble devotee follows (ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ) and then (what happens?) Guru (Gurbani) grants (in reality) muktee to the Sikh. Translation in Punjabi agreed by all Sikh scholars is as follows:

ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸੇਵਕ (ਸਿੱਖ) ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ 'ਤੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਕਹੇ ਉੱਤੇ ਚੱਲਦਾ ਹੈ । ਇਸ ਨਾਲ ਗੁਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ (ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਯਾਨੀ ਯਕੀਨੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ) ਸੇਵਕ ਦਾ ਪਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਾ (ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਭਾਵ ਮੁਕਤੀ) ਕਰ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।

Word ਪਰਤਖਿ means ਸਚਮੁੱਚ ਨਾ ਕਿ ਦੇਹ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੋ ਕੇ. Your misinterpretation is contradictory. If we assume that “partakh” refers to human guru then why does the Shabad declare Gurbani the true Guru in first line? Gurbani is the true Guru that saves then what is use of human to appear? Shabad says:

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਜਨ ਪੀਛੈ ਜਗੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥7॥

When Waheguru does kirpa, he saves the devotee by blessing him with bhagtee. Bhagtee cannot be done without contemplating upon Naam (Shabad) which is in Gurbani. Human body is clearly missing from the entire Shabad. Your translation simply doesn’t fit the context of the Shabad. Present to me your version of translation backed by any credible Sikh scholar and then we will discuss it.

and even if you say that human gurus wore not guru then why are you refearing them to guru. shouldent you say baba nanek baba angad baba ram das and so on.

Because Jot Nanak resided in the body. Guru Granth Sahib was called “Pothi Sahib” before it was given gurugaddi. Don’t start throwing silly questions now.

what about jithe jayee bahee mera satguru

It means wherever the Shabad Guru is present in partakh but doesn’t mention that physical body has to be there. It doesn’t mention raam singh or jagjit singh. Wherever saroop of Guru Sahib goes, that place becomes holy.

ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ॥

He is the Satguru and the Shabad.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੈ ਸਬਦ ਸਬਦ ਮੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੈ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਜੀ ॥534॥

In Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Ji, he narrates that Sikhs asked Guru Hargobind Ji about how many more bodies will the Jot adopt and Guru Sahib replies 4 more and then Shabad will stay as the Guru. Read Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of pauri “Jug Jug Satguru Dharay Avtaari”. This proves that after Guru Gobind Singh Ji, guruship did not continue in human form.

Gurbani doesn’t mention human gurus nor does it advocate them. You have not provided a single Shabad to prove otherwise. Why do you believe in Gurbani if you believe in human guru? Gurbani says Satguru never sleeps and never comes and goes. Naamdhari gurus have died and are in cycle of reincarnation. No proof exists which backs up their flimsy stories.

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the mods on this forum suck. and you wonder why non of the old posters that use to contribute quality to this forum dont even bother posting any more

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in the RSS documentary called Sava Lakh Se Ek Ladaun, there is a PHOTOGRAPH of Parkash Badal giving a large cheque to Jagjeet Naamdhari. this is how Badal stays in power as he bribes the poison sects to vote for him.

not heres the question, if Jagjeet Naamdhari was a guru, (let alone a satguru), would he really accept a cheque of black tainted money? would Guru Gobind Singh Ji ever accept anything from Aurangzeb?? ofcourse not.

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SARBLOH GRANTH OF DASAM PATHSHAA:

"In Ko Daras Satguru Ko darshan bolan Guru Shabad Gur Grantha.

Dvadas Roop Satigur Eh Kaiyat Dvadas Bhan Pargat Har Santha.

Partakya Kala Parbraham Dhanee Shai Granth Panth Khalsa Vartanta.

Das Gobind Fateh Satgur Ki Khalsa Granth Gur Roop Bidanta"

"Having the blessed audience (of the Khalsa) is equal to having the audience of the Guru, as long as they are singing the songs of love held within Guru Granth Sahib.

There are twelve forms of the Guru this is what I (Guru Gobind Singh) tell you,

There are twelve forms who revealed themselves I tell you Oh Saints.

This is the blatant arrow of power dispensed by the ultimate Creator,

Deal with the Guru Granth Guru Panth as the Khalsa.

The slave of the Deathless Being, Guru Gobind Singh, (does not recognise this victory as his), the victory is of supreme true Guru, the Khalsa and the Granth, these are very form and presence of the Guru."

Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji

END OF DEBATEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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^^^ yupp.

topic should be closed because naamdharis are not sikh, and are bad sangat. therefore they have no place on Sikhsangat. :D

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