Concentration While Meditating

[Matheen]

If you continue to assert that " Mahapurukhs" have more special privelledge of giving Naam over Panj Pyaarey then thats your choice.

It's strange how somebody can write one thing and someone else can interpret it to be something else.

He never wrote that Mahapursh can replace the 5 Pyare. All Mahapursh encourage people to become Amritdhari and receive Nam di daat from Guru Sahib - that is the starting point. However, they can advise on which simran technique is better suited to different people because they can see the level that one's surti/birthi is at. Note, this refers to real Mahapursh. Think about it this way - if someone has reached the final stage, achieved jeevan mukti and their Atma is one with Parmatma, then they know what works to get to that stage. Admittedly, there are not many people like this these days.

The original Sikh Sampardas have unbroken lineages going back to Guru Sahib's time. 300 years is not that long - just 4 generations in some cases, and these techniques were passed down from one generation to the next. Not everything is written down, just like you won't find reference to Khandey Bhattey Da Amrit in Guru Sahib, etc. For example, within the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda, Sant Isher Singh Ji has written of a few of these jugtiyan.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti. You use the same jugti, as do many other members of your jatha - is everyone who does this able to concentrate fully using this technique or do some complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? The reason why some are able to benefit from this jugti and others are not is because we are all at different levels - some have kamaiyee from previous janams, some don't etc. True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly. However, the Gurmantar is so powerful that even if you start at a level that doesn't suit you, if you have prem for Waheguru, you will still progress and get there eventually - it is Guru Ji's kirpa that is most important, if we have faith then Guru Ji will not let us go astray.

Anyway, talk is cheap, there's no point arguing over things like this when the time could be used for Simran.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

It's strange how somebody can write one thing and someone else can interpret it to be something else.

He never wrote that Mahapursh can replace the 5 Pyare. All Mahapursh encourage people to become Amritdhari and receive Nam di daat from Guru Sahib - that is the starting point. However, they can advise on which simran technique is better suited to different people because they can see the level that one's surti/birthi is at. Note, this refers to real Mahapursh. Think about it this way - if someone has reached the final stage, achieved jeevan mukti and their Atma is one with Parmatma, then they know what works to get to that stage. Admittedly, there are not many people like this these days.

The original Sikh Sampardas have unbroken lineages going back to Guru Sahib's time. 300 years is not that long - just 4 generations in some cases, and these techniques were passed down from one generation to the next. Not everything is written down, just like you won't find reference to Khandey Bhattey Da Amrit in Guru Sahib, etc. For example, within the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda, Sant Isher Singh Ji has written of a few of these jugtiyan.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti. You use the same jugti, as do many other members of your jatha - is everyone who does this able to concentrate fully using this technique or do some complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? The reason why some are able to benefit from this jugti and others are not is because we are all at different levels - some have kamaiyee from previous janams, some don't etc. True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly. However, the Gurmantar is so powerful that even if you start at a level that doesn't suit you, if you have prem for Waheguru, you will still progress and get there eventually - it is Guru Ji's kirpa that is most important, if we have faith then Guru Ji will not let us go astray.

Anyway, talk is cheap, there's no point arguing over things like this when the time could be used for Simran.

I really do not feel comfortable talking about Naam Drir over the net. This is something highly sacred which is between the Abhilakhi and the Panj Pyaarey. When I received Naam from Panj and had the opportunity to the Naam Abhyiaas with the Panj it was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. Its a memory I will take to the grave with me. I just want to clear things up about Naam Drir.

I think some people on this thread are confusing the term Naam Drir with jugti. Naam Drir is not a technique. Naam Drir is the instilling of Naam by the Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Naam Drir is planting the seed of Naam within the Gursikh. Again Naam Drir is not a technique instead it is the instilling of Gurmantar Naam. When the abhilakhi is blessed with Naam from the Panj Pyaarey the Panj Pyaarey teach you how to do Kamaee of Gurmantar Shabad. It is at this point Swas Swas Naam Simran is taught and this is a precise method to make the seed of Naam grow within the Abhilakhi. So when the Gurmantar is given by Panj Pyaarey the practice or reciting Gurmantar is taught by the Panj Pyaarey in the holy hazoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Now the argument that states Mahapursh can give Naam technique has no Gurmat based backings. Naam is given only by Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Panj Pyaarey can only give Naam and they are the only ones that can teach Abhilakhi to do Kamaee of Gurmantar at Amrit Sanchar.

Veer Ji you wrote "True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly"

This statement is somewhat misleading. How can we claim that a Mahapursh can see the level of an Abhilakhi and deny Panj Pyaarey of this power. If Panj Pyaarey do no have such power. Then do they have the power to turn water into Amrit. THe power of Panj Pyaarey is unlimited in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji they can bestow any power including the power of Naam. The gift of GUrmantar is an invaluable commoditie and nobody can take it away from you. Guru Sahib has made Panj Pyaarey the custodians of this priceless jewel which eventually opens up the gates of Dasam Dwaar. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given sole authority to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panj Pyaarey. Guru Sahib says where there are 5 rehatdhari Gursikhs then I am present. So why cant the Panj Pyaarey see the level of the abhilakhi? If there are 5 Rehatdhari Sikhs then there is no doubt that they can teach proper Kamaee of GuRmantar. Over and Over in Gurbani it says Naam is given by the Guru. If naam is given by the Guru why cant Guru Ji teach the abhilakhi how to recite Naam why is there a need for Mahapursh to teach these things. All authority lies in Guru Jis hands.

In regards to people believing original Sikh Sampardas did not commit to this particualr technique of Swas Swas Naam Simran taught by the Panj Pyaarey this is false. Bhai Mani Singh ( DamDami Taksal) who was in the presence of Guru Jis charan writes that Guru Sahib taught Mata Jito that method of Swas Swas Naam Simran which is the same method taught by Panj Pyaarey today.

You also stated "Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti"

This is untrue . Swas Swas Naam Simran is not just a mere technique that Bhai Sahib preferred. Nor is it a technique that he invented. In his book about he mentios when he first took Amrit from the Panj Pyaarey some outsider came in the Amrit Sanchar and whispered a false Mantar. He later was blessed with Gurmantar from Panj Pyaarey and taught swas swas naam simran, so how can we claim that he invented this method. NaamDharis no longer give Naam Drir. They did in the past under the Panj Pyaarey. This was the old times when they had great leaders like Baba Ram SIngh Ji. Now they are a joke who have their own GUru or Mahapursh leader. Today they dont even believe in concept of Panj Pyaarey and Amrit. So how can they give Naam Drir?

Those people that complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? do so because they lose heart fast. Patience is needed when doing Naam Simran. For the swas to settle in each breath it takes time depending on the individual. It doesnt mean one should give up on the method. Does that mean if the mind is not intune during Amrit Vela or nitnem we should give up on these things. We need to take heart have faith in Guru Ji, and the rest will fall in its place. Swas Swas Naam Simran technique taught by Panj Pyaarey helps in the constant recitation of Naam Simran throughout the day. Whether one is working or sitting or talking to others this technique taught by Guru Sahib is very helpful in teaching one to do SImran with each breath even in the midst of doing worldly activities. Im not saying its the only technique, people are creative and they can come up with other ways.If these ways suit them then thats great. I am happy that they are doing Naam Simran, so I am not going to question these practices. Im not of the opinion that everyone must do Swas Swas Naam SImran. This method is taught by Guru Sahib Ji in which Naam is planted and then the method to teach abhilakhi how to make this seed ascend is a rare method indeed. If it is written on a persons forhead to learn this way then they alone will be blessed with this gift by Panj Pyaarey.

siqgur dwqY nwmu idVwieAw muiK msqik Bwg sBwgy ]1]

sathigur dhaathai naam dhirraaeiaa mukh masathak bhaag sabhaagae ||1||

The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me. A very blessed and fortunate destiny is recorded upon my forehead. ||1||

[Shadow]

It's strange how somebody can write one thing and someone else can interpret it to be something else.

He never wrote that Mahapursh can replace the 5 Pyare. All Mahapursh encourage people to become Amritdhari and receive Nam di daat from Guru Sahib - that is the starting point. However, they can advise on which simran technique is better suited to different people because they can see the level that one's surti/birthi is at. Note, this refers to real Mahapursh. Think about it this way - if someone has reached the final stage, achieved jeevan mukti and their Atma is one with Parmatma, then they know what works to get to that stage. Admittedly, there are not many people like this these days.

The original Sikh Sampardas have unbroken lineages going back to Guru Sahib's time. 300 years is not that long - just 4 generations in some cases, and these techniques were passed down from one generation to the next. Not everything is written down, just like you won't find reference to Khandey Bhattey Da Amrit in Guru Sahib, etc. For example, within the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda, Sant Isher Singh Ji has written of a few of these jugtiyan.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti. You use the same jugti, as do many other members of your jatha - is everyone who does this able to concentrate fully using this technique or do some complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? The reason why some are able to benefit from this jugti and others are not is because we are all at different levels - some have kamaiyee from previous janams, some don't etc. True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly. However, the Gurmantar is so powerful that even if you start at a level that doesn't suit you, if you have prem for Waheguru, you will still progress and get there eventually - it is Guru Ji's kirpa that is most important, if we have faith then Guru Ji will not let us go astray.

Anyway, talk is cheap, there's no point arguing over things like this when the time could be used for Simran.

I really do not feel comfortable talking about Naam Drir over the net. This is something highly sacred which is between the Abhilakhi and the Panj Pyaarey. When I received Naam from Panj and had the opportunity to the Naam Abhyiaas with the Panj it was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. Its a memory I will take to the grave with me. I just want to clear things up about Naam Drir.

I think some people on this thread are confusing the term Naam Drir with jugti. Naam Drir is not a technique. Naam Drir is the instilling of Naam by the Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Naam Drir is planting the seed of Naam within the Gursikh. Again Naam Drir is not a technique instead it is the instilling of Gurmantar Naam. When the abhilakhi is blessed with Naam from the Panj Pyaarey the Panj Pyaarey teach you how to do Kamaee of Gurmantar Shabad. It is at this point Swas Swas Naam Simran is taught and this is a precise method to make the seed of Naam grow within the Abhilakhi. So when the Gurmantar is given by Panj Pyaarey the practice or reciting Gurmantar is taught by the Panj Pyaarey in the holy hazoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Now the argument that states Mahapursh can give Naam technique has no Gurmat based backings. Naam is given only by Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Panj Pyaarey can only give Naam and they are the only ones that can teach Abhilakhi to do Kamaee of Gurmantar at Amrit Sanchar.

Veer Ji you wrote "True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly"

This statement is somewhat misleading. How can we claim that a Mahapursh can see the level of an Abhilakhi and deny Panj Pyaarey of this power. If Panj Pyaarey do no have such power. Then do they have the power to turn water into Amrit. THe power of Panj Pyaarey is unlimited in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji they can bestow any power including the power of Naam. The gift of GUrmantar is an invaluable commoditie and nobody can take it away from you. Guru Sahib has made Panj Pyaarey the custodians of this priceless jewel which eventually opens up the gates of Dasam Dwaar. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given sole authority to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panj Pyaarey. Guru Sahib says where there are 5 rehatdhari Gursikhs then I am present. So why cant the Panj Pyaarey see the level of the abhilakhi? If there are 5 Rehatdhari Sikhs then there is no doubt that they can teach proper Kamaee of GuRmantar. Over and Over in Gurbani it says Naam is given by the Guru. If naam is given by the Guru why cant Guru Ji teach the abhilakhi how to recite Naam why is there a need for Mahapursh to teach these things. All authority lies in Guru Jis hands.

In regards to people believing original Sikh Sampardas did not commit to this particualr technique of Swas Swas Naam Simran taught by the Panj Pyaarey this is false. Bhai Mani Singh ( DamDami Taksal) who was in the presence of Guru Jis charan writes that Guru Sahib taught Mata Jito that method of Swas Swas Naam Simran which is the same method taught by Panj Pyaarey today.

You also stated "Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti"

This is untrue . Swas Swas Naam Simran is not just a mere technique that Bhai Sahib preferred. Nor is it a technique that he invented. In his book about he mentios when he first took Amrit from the Panj Pyaarey some outsider came in the Amrit Sanchar and whispered a false Mantar. He later was blessed with Gurmantar from Panj Pyaarey and taught swas swas naam simran, so how can we claim that he invented this method. NaamDharis no longer give Naam Drir. They did in the past under the Panj Pyaarey. This was the old times when they had great leaders like Baba Ram SIngh Ji. Now they are a joke who have their own GUru or Mahapursh leader. Today they dont even believe in concept of Panj Pyaarey and Amrit. So how can they give Naam Drir?

Those people that complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? do so because they lose heart fast. Patience is needed when doing Naam Simran. For the swas to settle in each breath it takes time depending on the individual. It doesnt mean one should give up on the method. Does that mean if the mind is not intune during Amrit Vela or nitnem we should give up on these things. We need to take heart have faith in Guru Ji, and the rest will fall in its place. Swas Swas Naam Simran technique taught by Panj Pyaarey helps in the constant recitation of Naam Simran throughout the day. Whether one is working or sitting or talking to others this technique taught by Guru Sahib is very helpful in teaching one to do SImran with each breath even in the midst of doing worldly activities. Im not saying its the only technique, people are creative and they can come up with other ways.If these ways suit them then thats great. I am happy that they are doing Naam Simran, so I am not going to question these practices. Im not of the opinion that everyone must do Swas Swas Naam SImran. This method is taught by Guru Sahib Ji in which Naam is planted and then the method to teach abhilakhi how to make this seed ascend is a rare method indeed. If it is written on a persons forhead to learn this way then they alone will be blessed with this gift by Panj Pyaarey.

siqgur dwqY nwmu idVwieAw muiK msqik Bwg sBwgy ]1]

sathigur dhaathai naam dhirraaeiaa mukh masathak bhaag sabhaagae ||1||

The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me. A very blessed and fortunate destiny is recorded upon my forehead. ||1||

vaheguru wikid post!

[Into the Light]

Naam Drirh, is a technique or jugti given by Punj Pyare. It is not the only jugti and there are many. Your Punj Pyare will give a Jugti to you. Panj are Guru Roop and their hukam is to be accepted.

Pls don't mock Naam Drirh as it is a jugti given by the Punj Pyare, but at the same time don't be naive and believe that it is the only jugti, because there are many.

[SunSingh]

Vir ji, I am not saying techniques are wrong. Gurbani itself contains more than one technique for doing simran, which proves that the swas swas technique is not the only one. Mahapurkhs give the seeker a jugti that is best for the seeker at whatever stage s/he is at. In Naam Dhrir, the punj give a technique, usually same one for all b/c these days those who do seva in punj don't usually have avastha to see inside jaigiasoo, to see what method is best for them. Different techniques are best for different stage. That being said, any technique will get you there in the end, some slower, some faster. I know people who have reached the stage mentioned in the shabad posted wihtout Naam Dhrir.

There is no Gurbani, nor any purataan dharmic granth, nor any rahit, nor any seena baseena rahit that states Mahapurkhs are not allowed to give jugti for simran. ALL sampradas (groups with deep historical roots) in the panth accept that Mahapurkhs can give jugti for doing simran. I am aware of none that accept naam dhrir as taught these days as being THE authentic and purataan method.

Bhul chuk maaf for any offence.

btw,

Elements of your argument do not address my post, and are in fact attacking a fake argument that you have created and are pretending is my argument.

If you continue to assert that " Mahapurukhs" have more special privelledge of giving Naam over Panj Pyaarey then thats your choice. If that is the case why isnt a special Mahapurkh invited in every Amrit Sanchar to give Gurmantar.Why Need Panj Payaarey to give Gurmantar if MahaPurush can do it. Can Babey give Amrit too?

ALso, could you please provide Gurbani Tuk which states didfferent methods of Naam Simran,especially those taught by Mahapurukhs. Or could you provide any rehatname that states Naam can be given by " Mahapurkhs". I guess in the video below that Baba is giving Naam.

http://www.panthic.org/news/0/ARTICLE/5107

Is this the type of methods you are talking about?

Now all can see why I posted the strawman picture up for your post. Instead of responding to my point, you make a fake point, and you defeat the fake point pretending that you have defeated my point. This is an underhanded debate technique called ''strawman technique''.

Never have I, nor has anyone else, stated that mahapurkhs can give gurmantar. Teaching a method of simran is different from giving Gurmantar. In fact, Bhai Rama Singh ji, 2nd jathedar of AKJ, discusses jugti of japping naam openly in his book.

I really do not feel comfortable talking about Naam Drir over the net. This is something highly sacred which is between the Abhilakhi and the Panj Pyaarey. When I received Naam from Panj and had the opportunity to the Naam Abhyiaas with the Panj it was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. Its a memory I will take to the grave with me. I just want to clear things up about Naam Drir.

I respect that people feel it is sacred. However, I disagree where people say others MUST take Amrit from those who give naam dhrirta, which in this day and age is only one jatha. I see it as an attempt to push their beleifs onto other people.

I think some people on this thread are confusing the term Naam Drir with jugti. Naam Drir is not a technique. Naam Drir is the instilling of Naam by the Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Naam Drir is planting the seed of Naam within the Gursikh. Again Naam Drir is not a technique instead it is the instilling of Gurmantar Naam. When the abhilakhi is blessed with Naam from the Panj Pyaarey the Panj Pyaarey teach you how to do Kamaee of Gurmantar Shabad. It is at this point Swas Swas Naam Simran is taught and this is a precise method to make the seed of Naam grow within the Abhilakhi. So when the Gurmantar is given by Panj Pyaarey the practice or reciting Gurmantar is taught by the Panj Pyaarey in the holy hazoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

I am aware that Dhirti is instillation of gurmantr by a particular technique (and I know the technique as well), and not jugti (method) of doing simran. However, all punj pyare give gurmantr. Do you deny this???

The Methods of other punj pyare are no weaker. Otherwise how could you have such powerful mahapurkhs as Sant Jarnail Singh ji, who did not take naam dhrirta.

Now the argument that states Mahapursh can give Naam technique has no Gurmat based backings. Naam is given only by Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Panj Pyaarey can only give Naam and they are the only ones that can teach Abhilakhi to do Kamaee of Gurmantar at Amrit Sanchar.

Only punj pyare can give Naam. But, as you yourself have stated, giving Naam is different from jugti of japping Naam.

There is no Gurmat basis for your opinion that Mahapurkhs cannot give ****JUGTI**** of how to jaap Naam ji. This is not written in any Gurbani, any dharmic granth, any rahit. All the groups that have lineages going back hundreds of years, meaning all the groups that kept the seena baseena rahits intact, also believe that Mahapurkhs can give jugti.

Veer Ji you wrote "True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly"

This statement is somewhat misleading. How can we claim that a Mahapursh can see the level of an Abhilakhi and deny Panj Pyaarey of this power. If Panj Pyaarey do no have such power. Then do they have the power to turn water into Amrit. THe power of Panj Pyaarey is unlimited in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji they can bestow any power including the power of Naam. The gift of GUrmantar is an invaluable commoditie and nobody can take it away from you. Guru Sahib has made Panj Pyaarey the custodians of this priceless jewel which eventually opens up the gates of Dasam Dwaar. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given sole authority to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panj Pyaarey. Guru Sahib says where there are 5 rehatdhari Gursikhs then I am present. So why cant the Panj Pyaarey see the level of the abhilakhi? If there are 5 Rehatdhari Sikhs then there is no doubt that they can teach proper Kamaee of GuRmantar. Over and Over in Gurbani it says Naam is given by the Guru. If naam is given by the Guru why cant Guru Ji teach the abhilakhi how to recite Naam why is there a need for Mahapursh to teach these things. All authority lies in Guru Jis hands.

the avastha of those who stand in the punj is on average lower today than it was in the past. If the punj had the same avastha as Guru ji during the Amrit sanchar, than they would all have the same gyan and all given the same rahit despite different jathas b/c they would know intuitively. They are Guru roop, it is shakti of Guru ji that enters their bodies for the Amrit Sanchaar to make Amrit.

In regards to people believing original Sikh Sampardas did not commit to this particualr technique of Swas Swas Naam Simran taught by the Panj Pyaarey this is false. Bhai Mani Singh ( DamDami Taksal) who was in the presence of Guru Jis charan writes that Guru Sahib taught Mata Jito that method of Swas Swas Naam Simran which is the same method taught by Panj Pyaarey today.

You yourself stated that naam dhrirti is different from jugti. Jugti of swas swas simran is common, nobody denied that. It is Naam Dhrirti that is uncommon, and in fact rejected by sampradas as required.

You also stated "Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti"

This is untrue . Swas Swas Naam Simran is not just a mere technique that Bhai Sahib preferred. Nor is it a technique that he invented. In his book about he mentios when he first took Amrit from the Panj Pyaarey some outsider came in the Amrit Sanchar and whispered a false Mantar. He later was blessed with Gurmantar from Panj Pyaarey and taught swas swas naam simran, so how can we claim that he invented this method. NaamDharis no longer give Naam Drir. They did in the past under the Panj Pyaarey. This was the old times when they had great leaders like Baba Ram SIngh Ji. Now they are a joke who have their own GUru or Mahapursh leader. Today they dont even believe in concept of Panj Pyaarey and Amrit. So how can they give Naam Drir?

You contradict yourself vir ji. Naam dhrir and jugti of japping naam are different things. In the qoute of yours above you are talking about jugti, and using the existence of the jugti as proof of puraatan existence of the particular naam dhrir technique used by AKJ. Proof of a particular jugti existings does not equal proof of Naam dhrirti being puraataan and proper rahit of instilling Naam in the panth.

Those people that complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? do so because they lose heart fast. Patience is needed when doing Naam Simran. For the swas to settle in each breath it takes time depending on the individual. It doesnt mean one should give up on the method. Does that mean if the mind is not intune during Amrit Vela or nitnem we should give up on these things. We need to take heart have faith in Guru Ji, and the rest will fall in its place. Swas Swas Naam Simran technique taught by Panj Pyaarey helps in the constant recitation of Naam Simran throughout the day. Whether one is working or sitting or talking to others this technique taught by Guru Sahib is very helpful in teaching one to do SImran with each breath even in the midst of doing worldly activities. Im not saying its the only technique, people are creative and they can come up with other ways.If these ways suit them then thats great. I am happy that they are doing Naam Simran, so I am not going to question these practices. Im not of the opinion that everyone must do Swas Swas Naam SImran. This method is taught by Guru Sahib Ji in which Naam is planted and then the method to teach abhilakhi how to make this seed ascend is a rare method indeed. If it is written on a persons forhead to learn this way then they alone will be blessed with this gift by Panj Pyaarey.

siqgur dwqY nwmu idVwieAw muiK msqik Bwg sBwgy ]1]

sathigur dhaathai naam dhirraaeiaa mukh masathak bhaag sabhaagae ||1||

The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me. A very blessed and fortunate destiny is recorded upon my forehead. ||1||

Guru Granth Sahib ji itself writes about other techniques of japping Naam:

ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਚੰਦ ਸਤ ਭੇਦਿਆ ਨਾਦ ਸਤ ਪੂਰਿਆ ਸੂਰ ਸਤ ਖੋੜਸਾ ਦਤੁ ਕੀਆ ॥

The breath is drawn in through the left nostril; it is held in the central channel of the Sukhmanaa, and exhaled through the right nostril, repeating the Lord's Name sixteen times.

ਅਬਲ ਬਲੁ ਤੋੜਿਆ ਅਚਲ ਚਲੁ ਥਪਿਆ ਅਘੜੁ ਘੜਿਆ ਤਹਾ ਅਪਿਉ ਪੀਆ ॥੧॥

I am powerless; my power has been broken. My unstable mind has been stabilized, and my unadorned soul has been adorned. I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||

ਮਨ ਆਦਿ ਗੁਣ ਆਦਿ ਵਖਾਣਿਆ ॥

Within my mind, I chant the Name of the Primal Lord God, the Source of virtue.

ਤੇਰੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੰਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

My vision, that You are I are separate, has melted away. ||1||Pause||

ਅਰਧਿ ਕਉ ਅਰਧਿਆ ਸਰਧਿ ਕਉ ਸਰਧਿਆ ਸਲਲ ਕਉ ਸਲਲਿ ਸੰਮਾਨਿ ਆਇਆ ॥

I worship the One who is worthy of being worshipped. I trust the One who is worthy of being trusted. Like water merging in water, I merge in the Lord.

ਬਦਤਿ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਕਉ ਰੰਮਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਲਿਵ ਲੀਣੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥੧॥

Says Jai Dayv, I meditate and contemplate the Luminous, Triumphant Lord. I am lovingly absorbed in the Nirvaanaa of God. ||2||1||

If only swas swas simran was the best, than there would be no reason for Guru ji to write such a complex technique as the above in Gurbani, HE would have just given swas swas simran to everyone.

bul chuk maaf for any mistakes or offence.

[Shadow]

It is Naam Dhrirti that is uncommon, and in fact rejected by sampradas as required.

You contradict yourself vir ji. Naam dhrir and jugti of japping naam are different things. In the qoute of yours above you are talking about jugti, and using the existence of the jugti as proof of puraatan existence of the particular naam dhrir technique used by AKJ. Proof of a particular jugti existings does not equal proof of Naam dhrirti being puraataan and proper rahit of instilling Naam in the panth.

I really don't know why you're arguing about naam dhrir. No one here has gone against the other methods of doing swas swas simran. We didn't say other methods of swas swas simran are weaker. Even if mahapurakhs give the technique of swas swas simran, that doesn't mean they implanted naam inside. Only the panj pyare can give naam.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

Vir ji, I am not saying techniques are wrong. Gurbani itself contains more than one technique for doing simran, which proves that the swas swas technique is not the only one. Mahapurkhs give the seeker a jugti that is best for the seeker at whatever stage s/he is at. In Naam Dhrir, the punj give a technique, usually same one for all b/c these days those who do seva in punj don't usually have avastha to see inside jaigiasoo, to see what method is best for them. Different techniques are best for different stage. That being said, any technique will get you there in the end, some slower, some faster. I know people who have reached the stage mentioned in the shabad posted wihtout Naam Dhrir.

There is no Gurbani, nor any purataan dharmic granth, nor any rahit, nor any seena baseena rahit that states Mahapurkhs are not allowed to give jugti for simran. ALL sampradas (groups with deep historical roots) in the panth accept that Mahapurkhs can give jugti for doing simran. I am aware of none that accept naam dhrir as taught these days as being THE authentic and purataan method.

Bhul chuk maaf for any offence.

btw,

Elements of your argument do not address my post, and are in fact attacking a fake argument that you have created and are pretending is my argument.

If you continue to assert that " Mahapurukhs" have more special privelledge of giving Naam over Panj Pyaarey then thats your choice. If that is the case why isnt a special Mahapurkh invited in every Amrit Sanchar to give Gurmantar.Why Need Panj Payaarey to give Gurmantar if MahaPurush can do it. Can Babey give Amrit too?

ALso, could you please provide Gurbani Tuk which states didfferent methods of Naam Simran,especially those taught by Mahapurukhs. Or could you provide any rehatname that states Naam can be given by " Mahapurkhs". I guess in the video below that Baba is giving Naam.

http://www.panthic.org/news/0/ARTICLE/5107

Is this the type of methods you are talking about?

Now all can see why I posted the strawman picture up for your post. Instead of responding to my point, you make a fake point, and you defeat the fake point pretending that you have defeated my point. This is an underhanded debate technique called ''strawman technique''.

Never have I, nor has anyone else, stated that mahapurkhs can give gurmantar. Teaching a method of simran is different from giving Gurmantar. In fact, Bhai Rama Singh ji, 2nd jathedar of AKJ, discusses jugti of japping naam openly in his book.

I really do not feel comfortable talking about Naam Drir over the net. This is something highly sacred which is between the Abhilakhi and the Panj Pyaarey. When I received Naam from Panj and had the opportunity to the Naam Abhyiaas with the Panj it was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. Its a memory I will take to the grave with me. I just want to clear things up about Naam Drir.

I respect that people feel it is sacred. However, I disagree where people say others MUST take Amrit from those who give naam dhrirta, which in this day and age is only one jatha. I see it as an attempt to push their beleifs onto other people.

I think some people on this thread are confusing the term Naam Drir with jugti. Naam Drir is not a technique. Naam Drir is the instilling of Naam by the Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Naam Drir is planting the seed of Naam within the Gursikh. Again Naam Drir is not a technique instead it is the instilling of Gurmantar Naam. When the abhilakhi is blessed with Naam from the Panj Pyaarey the Panj Pyaarey teach you how to do Kamaee of Gurmantar Shabad. It is at this point Swas Swas Naam Simran is taught and this is a precise method to make the seed of Naam grow within the Abhilakhi. So when the Gurmantar is given by Panj Pyaarey the practice or reciting Gurmantar is taught by the Panj Pyaarey in the holy hazoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

I am aware that Dhirti is instillation of gurmantr by a particular technique (and I know the technique as well), and not jugti (method) of doing simran. However, all punj pyare give gurmantr. Do you deny this???

The Methods of other punj pyare are no weaker. Otherwise how could you have such powerful mahapurkhs as Sant Jarnail Singh ji, who did not take naam dhrirta.

Now the argument that states Mahapursh can give Naam technique has no Gurmat based backings. Naam is given only by Panj Pyaarey in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Panj Pyaarey can only give Naam and they are the only ones that can teach Abhilakhi to do Kamaee of Gurmantar at Amrit Sanchar.

Only punj pyare can give Naam. But, as you yourself have stated, giving Naam is different from jugti of japping Naam.

There is no Gurmat basis for your opinion that Mahapurkhs cannot give ****JUGTI**** of how to jaap Naam ji. This is not written in any Gurbani, any dharmic granth, any rahit. All the groups that have lineages going back hundreds of years, meaning all the groups that kept the seena baseena rahits intact, also believe that Mahapurkhs can give jugti.

Veer Ji you wrote "True Mahapursh can see which level we're at and advise accordingly"

This statement is somewhat misleading. How can we claim that a Mahapursh can see the level of an Abhilakhi and deny Panj Pyaarey of this power. If Panj Pyaarey do no have such power. Then do they have the power to turn water into Amrit. THe power of Panj Pyaarey is unlimited in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji they can bestow any power including the power of Naam. The gift of GUrmantar is an invaluable commoditie and nobody can take it away from you. Guru Sahib has made Panj Pyaarey the custodians of this priceless jewel which eventually opens up the gates of Dasam Dwaar. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given sole authority to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panj Pyaarey. Guru Sahib says where there are 5 rehatdhari Gursikhs then I am present. So why cant the Panj Pyaarey see the level of the abhilakhi? If there are 5 Rehatdhari Sikhs then there is no doubt that they can teach proper Kamaee of GuRmantar. Over and Over in Gurbani it says Naam is given by the Guru. If naam is given by the Guru why cant Guru Ji teach the abhilakhi how to recite Naam why is there a need for Mahapursh to teach these things. All authority lies in Guru Jis hands.

the avastha of those who stand in the punj is on average lower today than it was in the past. If the punj had the same avastha as Guru ji during the Amrit sanchar, than they would all have the same gyan and all given the same rahit despite different jathas b/c they would know intuitively. They are Guru roop, it is shakti of Guru ji that enters their bodies for the Amrit Sanchaar to make Amrit.

In regards to people believing original Sikh Sampardas did not commit to this particualr technique of Swas Swas Naam Simran taught by the Panj Pyaarey this is false. Bhai Mani Singh ( DamDami Taksal) who was in the presence of Guru Jis charan writes that Guru Sahib taught Mata Jito that method of Swas Swas Naam Simran which is the same method taught by Panj Pyaarey today.

You yourself stated that naam dhrirti is different from jugti. Jugti of swas swas simran is common, nobody denied that. It is Naam Dhrirti that is uncommon, and in fact rejected by sampradas as required.

You also stated "Bhai Randhir Singh Ji preferred the AKJ technique (which is the same as the Namdhari one) and so the 5 Pyare in AKJ Amrit Sanchars teach that jugti"

This is untrue . Swas Swas Naam Simran is not just a mere technique that Bhai Sahib preferred. Nor is it a technique that he invented. In his book about he mentios when he first took Amrit from the Panj Pyaarey some outsider came in the Amrit Sanchar and whispered a false Mantar. He later was blessed with Gurmantar from Panj Pyaarey and taught swas swas naam simran, so how can we claim that he invented this method. NaamDharis no longer give Naam Drir. They did in the past under the Panj Pyaarey. This was the old times when they had great leaders like Baba Ram SIngh Ji. Now they are a joke who have their own GUru or Mahapursh leader. Today they dont even believe in concept of Panj Pyaarey and Amrit. So how can they give Naam Drir?

You contradict yourself vir ji. Naam dhrir and jugti of japping naam are different things. In the qoute of yours above you are talking about jugti, and using the existence of the jugti as proof of puraatan existence of the particular naam dhrir technique used by AKJ. Proof of a particular jugti existings does not equal proof of Naam dhrirti being puraataan and proper rahit of instilling Naam in the panth.

Those people that complain that "mann nahi tikdha"? do so because they lose heart fast. Patience is needed when doing Naam Simran. For the swas to settle in each breath it takes time depending on the individual. It doesnt mean one should give up on the method. Does that mean if the mind is not intune during Amrit Vela or nitnem we should give up on these things. We need to take heart have faith in Guru Ji, and the rest will fall in its place. Swas Swas Naam Simran technique taught by Panj Pyaarey helps in the constant recitation of Naam Simran throughout the day. Whether one is working or sitting or talking to others this technique taught by Guru Sahib is very helpful in teaching one to do SImran with each breath even in the midst of doing worldly activities. Im not saying its the only technique, people are creative and they can come up with other ways.If these ways suit them then thats great. I am happy that they are doing Naam Simran, so I am not going to question these practices. Im not of the opinion that everyone must do Swas Swas Naam SImran. This method is taught by Guru Sahib Ji in which Naam is planted and then the method to teach abhilakhi how to make this seed ascend is a rare method indeed. If it is written on a persons forhead to learn this way then they alone will be blessed with this gift by Panj Pyaarey.

siqgur dwqY nwmu idVwieAw muiK msqik Bwg sBwgy ]1]

sathigur dhaathai naam dhirraaeiaa mukh masathak bhaag sabhaagae ||1||

The True Guru, the Giver, has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me. A very blessed and fortunate destiny is recorded upon my forehead. ||1||

Guru Granth Sahib ji itself writes about other techniques of japping Naam:

ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਚੰਦ ਸਤ ਭੇਦਿਆ ਨਾਦ ਸਤ ਪੂਰਿਆ ਸੂਰ ਸਤ ਖੋੜਸਾ ਦਤੁ ਕੀਆ ॥

The breath is drawn in through the left nostril; it is held in the central channel of the Sukhmanaa, and exhaled through the right nostril, repeating the Lord's Name sixteen times.

ਅਬਲ ਬਲੁ ਤੋੜਿਆ ਅਚਲ ਚਲੁ ਥਪਿਆ ਅਘੜੁ ਘੜਿਆ ਤਹਾ ਅਪਿਉ ਪੀਆ ॥੧॥

I am powerless; my power has been broken. My unstable mind has been stabilized, and my unadorned soul has been adorned. I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||

ਮਨ ਆਦਿ ਗੁਣ ਆਦਿ ਵਖਾਣਿਆ ॥

Within my mind, I chant the Name of the Primal Lord God, the Source of virtue.

ਤੇਰੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੰਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

My vision, that You are I are separate, has melted away. ||1||Pause||

ਅਰਧਿ ਕਉ ਅਰਧਿਆ ਸਰਧਿ ਕਉ ਸਰਧਿਆ ਸਲਲ ਕਉ ਸਲਲਿ ਸੰਮਾਨਿ ਆਇਆ ॥

I worship the One who is worthy of being worshipped. I trust the One who is worthy of being trusted. Like water merging in water, I merge in the Lord.

ਬਦਤਿ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਜੈਦੇਵ ਕਉ ਰੰਮਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਲਿਵ ਲੀਣੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥੧॥

Says Jai Dayv, I meditate and contemplate the Luminous, Triumphant Lord. I am lovingly absorbed in the Nirvaanaa of God. ||2||1||

If only swas swas simran was the best, than there would be no reason for Guru ji to write such a complex technique as the above in Gurbani, HE would have just given swas swas simran to everyone.

bul chuk maaf for any mistakes or offence.

I can never deny Gurmantar is given by Panj Pyaarey, that would be blasphemy, and I agree that water is turned into Amrit from Guru Jis Shakti. Similarily Naam Drir is given by GUru Jis shakti in which Naam/Gurmantar is instilled in the abhilakhi thus making swas swas automatic.

Naam Drir is needed to learn Swas Swas technique. THrough Naam Drir the seed of Naam is sewn in the fabric ( core) of ones being.

Veer Ji you stated " There is no Gurmat basis for your opinion that Mahapurkhs cannot give ****JUGTI**** of how to jaap Naam ji. This is not written in any Gurbani, any dharmic granth, any rahit. All the groups that have lineages going back hundreds of years, meaning all the groups that kept the seena baseena rahits intact, also believe that Mahapurkhs can give jugti"

Im sorry but if its not contained in GUrbani or any rehatnamas then I cannot accept such things. That is just the method I follow. In Gurbani it is clear who can give Naam and who teaches knowledge/method of Swas Swas Naam SImran. Following Shabad explains Knowledge of breathing in and out and staying concentrated soley on VaheGuRU is taught by Guru Ji only. THe following Shabad outside and inside refers to swas because the next pangti Guru Ji talks about knowing yourself. One can only know themselves( their jot) through internal contemplation/meditation. Through this internal contemplation the unseen lord ( alakh) is revealed. When the happens dobuts are removed and one only thinks of VahGuRu when breathing Outside and Inside.

bwhir BIqir eyko jwnhu iehu gur igAwnu bqweI ]

baahar bheethar eaeko jaanahu eihu gur giaan bathaaee ||

Outside and inside, know that there is only the One Lord; the Guru has imparted this wisdom to me.

jn nwnk ibnu Awpw cInY imtY n BRm kI kweI ]2]1]

jan naanak bin aapaa cheenai mittai n bhram kee kaaee ||2||1||

O servant Nanak, without knowing one's own self, the moss of doubt is not removed. ||2||1||

In Gurbani there is only one technique of Naam Simran and that is GUrmat Sehaj Yoga. One can recite Naam Simran anyway they want this will bring GUru Jis happiness for sure. But in regards to techniques entailed in Gurbani there is only one mehtod which is written in Gurbani. In GUrmat Sehaj Yog power comes from GUrmantar not by mere foce of breath which is Hath Yog. The Shabad you provided refers to Hath Yoga which the GUru Sahib has clearly rejected. This technique you have refered to is considered as Pakhand by Guru JI beause learning any forms of Yog without the GUru is considered Pakhand.

pwKMf kIny jogu n pweIAY ibnu siqgur AlKu n pwieAw ]12]

paakha(n)dd keenae jog n paaeeai bin sathigur alakh n paaeiaa ||12||

Practicing hypocrisy, Yoga is not obtained; without the True Guru, the unseen Lord is not found. ||12||

qIrQ vrq nym krih auidAwnw ]

theerathh varath naem karehi oudhiaanaa ||

Some make vows to visit sacred shrines of pilgrimage, keep fasts and live in the forest.

jqu squ sMjmu kQih igAwnw ]

jath sath sa(n)jam kathhehi giaanaa ||

Some practice chastity, charity and self-discipline, and speak of spiritual wisdom.

rwm nwm ibnu ikau suKu pweIAY ibnu siqgur Brmu n jwieAw ]13]

raam naam bin kio sukh paaeeai bin sathigur bharam n jaaeiaa ||13||

But without the Lord's Name, how can anyone find peace? Without the True Guru, doubt is not dispelled. ||13||

inaulI krm BuieAMgm BwTI ]

nioulee karam bhueia(n)gam bhaat(h)ee ||

Inner cleansing techniques, channeling the energy to raise the Kundalini to the Tenth Gate,

ryck kuMBk pUrk mn hwTI ]

raechak ku(n)bhak poorak man haat(h)ee ||

inhaling, exhaling and holding the breath by the force of the mind -

pwKMf Drmu pRIiq nhI hir sau gur sbd mhw rsu pwieAw ]14]

paakha(n)dd dhharam preeth nehee har so gur sabadh mehaa ras paaeiaa ||14||

by empty hypocritical practices, Dharmic love for the Lord is not produced. Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained. ||14||

Read the last two Gurbani Tuks that I have just posted, and compare it with the Pangtis you have provided. It is clear that the Pangti that you have provided is Hath Yoga which GUru Ji calls Pakhand, In this yoga the person forces there breath through their nostrils. IF you look at the second pangti that you provided you will notice that Bhagat Jaidev Ji is saying that he has given up this form in which one trys to control the breath by force. In the next Pangti he says he is now powerless, and he relys soley on the Naam which is in the mind. Only Guru Ji can instill Naam in the mind. Why in the pangti you provided Hath Yoga mentions reciting GOds name 16 times. In GUrmat there is no particualr number to recite GOds Name this is a mechanical process which the Yogis do. THe pangti you provided mentions reciting GOds name 16times why is that???

THis means the person is doing things through a mechanical way. In Gurmat Yoga love for GUrShabad aka Gurmantar is the basis of doing swas swas Naam Simran which each breath there are no numbers counted. When you love something there is no reason to count, counting is for people who do things in a mechanical way.

THe pangti you provided demonstrates that this is not in line with GUrmat Sehaj YOga ( technique of Naam SImran in Gubani) this is Hath YOga which Bhagat Jaidev Ji is saying bears no fruit. He has given up this stuboorn forceful breath controlling method and has become powerless ; meaning he is no longer capricious and he has taken sole support in Naam . Here is the pangti you quoted. Again if you compare it with the Shabad I have provided you will notice that Guru ji is against this method.

cMd sq ByidAw nwd sq pUirAw sUr sq KoVsw dqu kIAw ]

cha(n)dh sath bhaedhiaa naadh sath pooriaa soor sath khorrasaa dhath keeaa ||

The breath is drawn in through the left nostril; it is held in the central channel of the Sushmanaa, and exhaled through the right nostril, repeating the Lord's Name sixteen times.

Abl blu qoiVAw Acl clu QipAw AGVu GiVAw qhw Aipau pIAw ]1]

abal bal thorriaa achal chal thhapiaa agharr gharriaa thehaa apio peeaa ||1||

I am powerless; my power has been broken. My unstable mind has been stabliized, and my unadorned soul has been adorned. I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||

mn Awid gux Awid vKwixAw ]

man aadh gun aadh vakhaaniaa ||

Within my mind, I chant the Name of the Primal Lord God, the Source of virtue.

qyrI duibDw idRsit sMmwinAw ]1] rhwau ]

thaeree dhubidhhaa dhrisatt sa(n)maaniaa ||1|| rehaao ||

My vision, that You are I are separate, has melted away. ||1||Pause||

So again it is clear that this method of Naam SImran is Pakhand and has no place in Gurmat. ONly method which is approved in Gurbani is the method which relys soley on Naam ( Gurmantar). Hath YOga can never be approved.

The Jugti that Bhai Mani SIngh talks about is swas swas naam Simran and this method can only be taught if Naam is instilled in the abhilakhi. AS I have said above in Gurmat Sehaj Yoga breath is controlled by love for Gurmantar alone. For this to happen Gurmantar must be instilled in abhilakhi this can can only happen through the power of the most beloved the Panj Pyaarey. ALL sampradas have not retained the knowledge that was orginally bestowed upon them. It is plain fact that there was a time when Baham Mahants took over Gurmat Institutions and try to change Gurmat.

I have said over and over doing Naam Simran in which ever method is great as long as it doesnt go against Gurmat. I wouldnt even consider Hath Yoga to be a method of Naam SImran because there is no focus on Naam.

Doing naam simran is a great thing , no in fact its the best thing. SO why would I question or say only one way of Naam Simran is ok. I have only claimed that Swas Swas technique taught by Panj Pyaarey is the greatest aide in doing Naam Simran while sitting, eating, talking, or doing any other worldy activities and it hepls to get access to the Dasam Duaar quicker. This takes time though , and one has to keep strong Amrit Vela, Nitnem, Rehat, for this to happen.

[SunSingh]

Challo fer ji. We both agree that Gurmantr must be given by the punj. We disagree that there are multiple jugtian for different jaigiasou, and that they can be given my mahapurkhs. You provided no real evidence for your opinion, nor has your completely baseless claim that mahants gained control of ALL sampradas been substantiated in any way (they did not in fact control the damdami taksaal, and some others as well). The position of ALL sampradas is that Naam is dhrir from being given by the punj, that the method used by modern day jathas with no lineage to transmit this method intact from the past is not required. Mahapurkhs from different samprada such as Baba Thakur Singh ji, Baba Jagjit Singh ji, and Baba Nihaal Singh ji all agree on this. But I can see this is going around in circles now with no new points. Feel free to respond if you have a new point, otherwise lets just agree to disagree.

I apologise for any hurt feelings. And I hope that people will stop trying to force their jatha maryada onto people through fear.

QUOTE (Shadow @ Jul 24 2009, 09:44 AM) I really don't know why you're arguing about naam dhrir. No one here has gone against the other methods of doing swas swas simran. We didn't say other methods of swas swas simran are weaker. Even if mahapurakhs give the technique of swas swas simran, that doesn't mean they implanted naam inside. Only the panj pyare can give naam.

I have clearly stated this in my post ji. Please read fully it before replying next time.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

Challo fer ji. We both agree that Gurmantr must be given by the punj. We disagree that there are multiple jugtian for different jaigiasou, and that they can be given my mahapurkhs. You provided no real evidence for your opinion, nor has your completely baseless claim that mahants gained control of ALL sampradas been substantiated in any way (they did not in fact control the damdami taksaal, and some others as well). The position of ALL sampradas is that Naam is dhrir from being given by the punj, that the method used by modern day jathas with no lineage to transmit this method intact from the past is not required. Mahapurkhs from different samprada such as Baba Thakur Singh ji, Baba Jagjit Singh ji, and Baba Nihaal Singh ji all agree on this. But I can see this is going around in circles now with no new points. Feel free to respond if you have a new point, otherwise lets just agree to disagree.

I apologise for any hurt feelings. And I hope that people will stop trying to force their jatha maryada onto people through fear.

QUOTE (Shadow @ Jul 24 2009, 09:44 AM) I really don't know why you're arguing about naam dhrir. No one here has gone against the other methods of doing swas swas simran. We didn't say other methods of swas swas simran are weaker. Even if mahapurakhs give the technique of swas swas simran, that doesn't mean they implanted naam inside. Only the panj pyare can give naam.

I have clearly stated this in my post ji. Please read fully it before replying next time.

In regards to Sant Baba Nihal Singh Ji I highly doubt that Baba Ji said Naam Dhrir is not required. Could you provide Katha recording in which he says this. I myself have seen Baba Ji doing Swas Swas Naam Simran the same way the Jatha does.

In regards to AKJ being a modern Jatha, that is to funny.Putting the word Modern next to Akhand Kirtani Jatha REALLY seems hilarious to a person who has sangat of AKJ Singhs and know there Maryada :lol: . They are ultra orthodox who are quite strict in Gurmat traditions. People commonly think that the "new" jathas do not understand Puratan Maryada. This is far from the truth. Just because a group has formed much after the religion has started it doesnt mean the group is unorthodox. Take the Hasidic Jews for example. Judaism is thousands of years old. The Hasidic Jews which no Jew will doubt are the most Orthodox and JEwsih Orientated among the Jews.

Like the Sikhs, Jews also have been through difficult times. It was during their hard times and mingling with other cultures that people tried to distrot and water down their religion. This inspired a man to reform the Jewish RElgion. He was a man of mysticsim and sprituality he reformed the religion around 200 years ago, and now this group ( Hasidic people) follow the old traditions. These Hasidic Jews have no sense of modernism they do hardcore Bhagti. SImilarly the AKJ has a similar history to the Hasidic people. Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji was a great reformer who was deep into mysticsm and spirituality if you read his books you will not doubt this. He was a BrahmGiani-Mahapurush whose understanding of Gurmat Traditions was profound. In fact, Bhai Sahib had Darshan of Guru Sahib numerous times in which Guru jI would explain Gurmat to him the same way Guru Ji used to teach Sant Baba Harnam SIngh Ji ( Rampur Khera)Gurmat traditions. Bhai Sahib went through many struggles to re-establish these Gurmat practices. Truly nobody can doubt Bhai Sahibs saintliness. Bhai Sahib also had other devoted SIkhs with him who use to follow this way of Gurmat. They would do Naam Abhyiaas and Kirtan all day long without any sleep . Thats how much pyaar they had for GUrmat. THe simple people of Punajb used to things these SInghs are crazy. Because they renounced worldiness and were into hardcore Bhagti people thought they were krazy. The Jatha used to go around India and preach Tat Gurmat. This all went on during the British Raj.

Similarily other great reformers were also esatblishing groups and trying to bring SIkhi back to its true roots. Nobody can deny that Sikhi has been through so much that its origins have faded during the process. When a group starts mingling with othe cultures they start adopting their practices and beliefs. This was a problem Sikhi went through and many great reformers who had no sense of wordliness or modernism try to reform Sikhi. For example Sant Baba Nand SIngh Ji of Nanaksar and Sant Sunder Singh Ji of Taksal. Therefore we cant assume the "new" reform groups have no understanding of Gurmat or the past.

In regards to your belief that DamDami Taksal not being changed. The simple historical fact is that SInghs were in great danger they were living in the Jungles. They could not establish insitutions and manage these freely. That is just plain logic. IF you insist there was no breakage in the lineage then who took over the Jatha after Shaheed Baba Gurbax SIngh Ji and all the other Singhs of Jatha became Shaheed?? There was no Jathedar. ALso why is there no mention of the Damdami Taksal in British Historical books upon arriving in Punajb. There is alot of mention of Nihang SInghs but none of Dandami Taksal. Guru Gobind SIngh Ji Maharaji started this jatha for the purpose of teaching people how to recite Gurbani, it was not some type of institution like it is today. None of the Singhs were bound by this instiution. For example, Akali Baba Deep Singh Ji taught at this taksal and he also led an army of NIhangs. THe taksal was a school that taught recitation thats it. The teachers of this school had profound knowledge. For example Bhai Mani SIngh Ji had great knowledge of Gurmat he would record things like the practice of Naam Drir. But the Takal in the past was not an Institution like it was today.

At the end of the day we shouldnt be attached to any group. If we have sangat of other Singhs this is a great blessing which we should be thankful for. We should enjoy moment with the sangat but there should no attachments/affiliations with certain groups. At the end of the day nobody can go with us. Those Gurmukhs we meet along the way will help along but not everyone belonging to a jatha isa Gurmukh. I have no doubts that reformers like Baba Nand Singh Ji , Baba Sunder SIngh Ji, and Bhai SaHIB BhaI Randhir Singh had great understaning of Gurmat. At the same time I have no doubts that a majority of the people who belong to their jathas could care less about Gurmat. They like to join this group or that group for the sake of joining groups and bashing other groups. Its more about territory and less about truth. They are engrossed in wordliness and modernism/maya and can careless about the Panth and Gurmat.The Goal should be to worship Guru Granth and serve Guru Panth we shouldnt let affilations to certain groups make us so ignorant that we talk down on other groups and say they are not puratan or have no understanding of Gurmat traditions.

[Guest Afreecan]

definition of modern: (adjective) of or relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the past.

AKJ is modern and like it or not, some of their beiliefs contradict what is written in Sri Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth. MANY Sampardaic groups have unbroken lineages, including the Damdami Taksal. Listen to Sant Gurbachan singh Ji's katha on the issue. The Bhai Dharam Singh Ji and Bhai Daya Singh Ji sampardas are also examples of this.

The fact is that Maryada of Buddha Dal , Taruna Dal, Taksal, The 2 Sampardas mentioned above, is virtually identical. There are minor differences, but the main beliefs and practices are the same.

Doing Simran with your swaasan is a great jugti if done right, but the AKJ Naam Dhrrirna is not a traditional feature of Sikhi. Some AKJ groups still have the thing where one of the 5 pyare will hug the abhilakee and 'install' naam and call this Naam Dhrrirna. Is it any surprise that Harjit Lakhan and the rest of his cult are all former AKJers?