Sikh Channel - Bibi Fasion Statement

[SaRpAnCh]

WE HAVE BIGGER ISSUES let her wear whatever colour she likes

[Khaalis]

Lol, this is the stuff 'Sikh Sangat Legend' is made of!

How sad and reflective of the holes in everyones lives - that they need to talk about this sort of irrelevant nonsense to 'feel complete'.

Be concerned with yourself, not others.

Other than that - there is an underlying AKJ agenda being driven here - there is no evidence at all to support Bibiyan wore Dastaaran in the 18th C, in fact paintings from that period tell a different story. Dastaar was onl;y worn by Bibiyan da jujaari fauj, which was very rare - we have examples like Mata Bhago - who were the exception and not the rule - (which is why only she fought witht eh 40 muktay and not the wives of the 40 Muktay - who shamed their Singhs to return to the battlefield.

Women in Dal Panth were usually widows - who joined the Dal to do seva - and even fight - and for safety and battlefield psychology reasons would have dressed exactly like her Khalsa brethren (so not be distinuished and identified as a lady in war). Most other women would not have been much different to look at than their Punjabi counterparts.

The colour dark blue is a battlefield colour worn by Singhs - always by Nihang singhs because they are instructed to remain tyar bar tyar. it serves the purpose of hiding blood if a singh is wounded, as well as providing cover (camouflage) at night etc.

Panthic or puratan Sampyradic rehits do not require grihisht Bibiyan to wear dastaars - this was a new innovation started by the likes of the notorious Bhasauria and those he influenced (reformers).

That does not mean to say there is anything wrong with Bibiyan wearing dastaaran, its a personal choice - that should be remembered.

[satpunga singh]

^^^took the words right out of my mouth...

[Singhstah]

Lol, this is the stuff 'Sikh Sangat Legend' is made of!

How sad and reflective of the holes in everyones lives - that they need to talk about this sort of irrelevant nonsense to 'feel complete'.

Be concerned with yourself, not others.

Other than that - there is an underlying AKJ agenda being driven here - there is no evidence at all to support Bibiyan wore Dastaaran in the 18th C, in fact paintings from that period tell a different story. Dastaar was onl;y worn by Bibiyan da jujaari fauj, which was very rare - we have examples like Mata Bhago - who were the exception and not the rule - (which is why only she fought witht eh 40 muktay and not the wives of the 40 Muktay - who shamed their Singhs to return to the battlefield.

Women in Dal Panth were usually widows - who joined the Dal to do seva - and even fight - and for safety and battlefield psychology reasons would have dressed exactly like her Khalsa brethren (so not be distinuished and identified as a lady in war). Most other women would not have been much different to look at than their Punjabi counterparts.

Sorry, I have to object to your post.

Ironically, I will be using a source from a nihang site (all due credit to them for putting it up)

Note that in this source there are only FIVE women dressed 'exactly like men' (presumably representing the panj pyare), the rest are ALL wearing FEMALE clothing, clearly they are NOT trying to make themselves indistiguishable from men. Also note that they were quite easily recognised as women by the muslim women, and also that clearly not all were widows as they are mentioned as being married and being made up of both old and young!

Adorning weapons, chakars [quoits] and knifes they wore many [in their dumallas – high conical turbans]. Forty kilos of weapons and armour they adorned. Dressed alike were young and old women. They were strong, powerful and of great charity. Some wore dress of women. Five dressed like men [i.e. in full warrior dress]. Getting Singh and Singhnias ready thus. Sending one Sirdar with them, the Singhnia set off towards the royal palace. The powerful Singhs stood outside. All the royal women came out to see them. They [singhs] had great moustache and beards. Their eyes were full of rage and eyebrows greater. Wearing many weapons. Seeing their great form and beauty, they were as if incarnations of the warrior spirit. The Begams were astonished. Begams sent them [singhs] gifts. Saluting the Singhs, they sent them away. Then they looked at the Singhnia. They took them into their palace. They [singhnia] said, “Sat Siri Akal”. They replied “Salaam” and sat them down. Seeing their form and strong bodies. Dressed in armour and weapons. Listening to their conversation of plundering and war. And how to kill a hunt. And how to aim with bows and muskets. Hearing them, they were astonished. Under their 'Salwars' [trouser like garments], were 'Kashehras' [breeches]. Seeing their great clothes. Listening to their manly words. The Begams were astounded. The four Singhnia had a special female dress. They wore silver ornaments twenty pounds in weight. Seeing this they were awe struck. Their Salwars were twenty yard long. They wore heavy lower garments. Their top knots stood span and half high. Their Shmeezes were of special design. Their physiques were large and heavy. Seeing them the Begams were astounded because they stood unarmed and weak of body. Fearing the Singhnia they cowered to half their size. Then began discussion on religion. Singhnia dismissed all other religions. The traditions of Muslims [Turks] they called false. The way of Mohammed they said was full of faults. [it has to be noted that this was a time of extreme persecution of Sikhs by Sunni Muslim Moguls and Afghans and there was great hostility towards Sunni Muslims] The Singhnia described all the atrocities of the Turks. Hearing them the Begams shuddered. Shocked they covered their mouths with their hands. Hearing of the chastity, sincerity and morals of the Singhs. The Begams spoke nodding their heads. “Singhnia you are of great fate. You move about with you husbands. We are pathetic and suffer greatly. Our life is like life imprisonment. One king has sixty wives. By marrying we are as if trapped in a trap”.'

('Naveen Panth Prakash', Giani Gian Singh Nirmala, 1877, Bhasha Vibhag Publication, Pa.1151-1153)

(Shastar vidiya site)

In the below image, the bibi is quite obvsiouly wearing a small keski under the chunni like bibia in india do, also in full female dress and even earings, these facts plus the small keski (not a dumalla), do NOT in the least suggest war or disguise as a man.

http://www.amritworld.com/images/blog/nihang_with_wife.jpg

Furthermore

J. D. Cunningham himself saw and wrote in the middle of the Nineteenth Century when he wrote his book, History of the Sikhs. He writes: "The Sikh women are distinguished from Hindus of their sex by some variety of dress but chiefly by a higher top knot of hair." (Searchsikhism.com)

Now if someone did not know women wore keskis, then they might easily mistake their small keski for a "high topknot", eg.

eg if you look close enough at the below pic, you can see a keski underneath, but would someone with no idea about females wearing a keski even think it was anything but a joora?

http://tapoban.org/album/Puratan%20Sikhs/slides/26--bhaisahibandsinghnibig.html

or even this one http://tapoban.org/album/Puratan%20Sikhs/slides/31--File0004.html

Panthic or puratan Sampyradic rehits do not require grihisht Bibiyan to wear dastaars - this was a new innovation started by the likes of the notorious Bhasauria and those he influenced (reformers).

That's a pretty cheap shot.

[Singhstah]

--

[Ksinghni]

Amrique Kaur (the presenter in question) really shouldn't wear make up with a dastar. The original poster had a valid point : 'We want to be "Amritdhari" and wear Dastars but more importantly, want to dress like manmukhs and disrespect the image of the Khalsa with painting our faces to make ourselves feel pretty.'

Sikhchannel.tv forum don't want to know because they don't reply to things that they don't agree with.

[Jaipal2004]

It is petty discussions like this that are diluting Sikhi - we shouldn't get tied up and having arguments about the colours of our dastaars or makeup!!!

We should be bringing people to the folds!!

It is amazing the number of people on here who disagree with things that Sikh channel are 'portraying' about Sikhi yet have not probably even bothered to say they're doing an excellent job or to give them funding.

And as for the Veer who said that if the Sikh channel are good etc then God'll look after them for funding - this is not too unlike people who drink and eat meat and then say "if Guru Ji wills it, then he will take me away from these vices"

Come on people!!!! If you want to argue - argue about important things, not the colours of clothes!!!!

[Ksinghni]

It is petty discussions like this that are diluting Sikhi - we shouldn't get tied up and having arguments about the colours of our dastaars or makeup!!!

We should be bringing people to the folds!!

It is amazing the number of people on here who disagree with things that Sikh channel are 'portraying' about Sikhi yet have not probably even bothered to say they're doing an excellent job or to give them funding.

And as for the Veer who said that if the Sikh channel are good etc then God'll look after them for funding - this is not too unlike people who drink and eat meat and then say "if Guru Ji wills it, then he will take me away from these vices"

Come on people!!!! If you want to argue - argue about important things, not the colours of clothes!!!!

actually, FYI, I have given them funding and i do think they are doing an excellent job. We have the channel on 24/7

and things such as distorting the image of the khalsa IS diluting sikhi...this is a discussion board is it not???...maybe we can all learn a little from each other...right?

I am having non-sikh people come up to me and say 'that girl on TV wears make-up so why don't you?' even though I have explained to them that when we become gursikh, we try to keep things as simple and as natural as we can as thats just the way God made us...Gurikhs bibian wearing make-up is just as bad as Gursikh Singhs dying their beard black when it goes grey in my opinion. Do you find that acceptable?

sooner or later, hair removal for amritdhari women will be the norm too!!! where will it stop????

[citizen_soulja]

totally agree with Ksinghni!!!

[BhForce]

khalsa_s1ngh, what are you trying to prove with the pictures? The pictures aren't from the time of 10th Guruji so what do they matter?

One of the pics shows the Mehal of Guru Gobind Singh ji with ears pierced and earrings in Amrit sanchar. In most Amrit sanchars initiates are told to stay sabat surat, and not wear pierced earrings. Hukum on "Sabat surat" is right from Gurbani and also sakhis. Are you trying to disprove "sabat surat"? Better to follow hukum than pics made after the fact.