Idols In Darbar Sahib

[Matheen]

How would we answer this? How true is it? I will post ur ansers on their message board

It's all lies - ask for their sources.

Bijla Singh's post has answered most of the points, so you should post that there. Also, ask why none of the contemporary Granths like Suraj parkash, Panth Parkash etc mention idols, or why period paintings of Maharaja Ranjit Singh (and older ones as well) don't have any idols in them.

Their main argument is that the British conspired to have idols removed, while the facts are that idols were only introduced by the British installed Mahants.

[manni007]

Thanks Matheen but I need full answers to each of these points, with references.

The references these facebook groups and msn group called sikh myths uses are Najot Singh Oberoi, writer of Hum Hindu Hain, Khushwant Singh - History of Sikhs, Koenraad Elsts - Who are the Sikhs and History of Khalsa?

Answers to this :

Here is what somone else said re expalanation of idols/murits in Hari mandir sahib, ( HOW WOULD YOU answer these points? - SO that i can copy and paste on them on their message board, THANKS for doing the hard work FATEH)

....the lines between who is hindu and who is sikh were a lot more blurred during and immediately after the (sikh) gurus times on earth, than they are today.

Hindus from the Punjab who under the leadership of Guru Gobind Singh took up arms against the mughals, adorned the five kakkars of the guru, and took amrit would describe themselves as Khalsa - (PURE), rather than sikh.

When the fighting was over they would go back to their day to day duties and carry on with their Hindu rituals and festivals such as Diwali, rakhri, lohri and vaisakhi.

...they saw no contradictions in doing so either.....therfore it would be of no surprise that the eldest son of a Hindu family would join the Khalsa army whilst at the same time retaining his Hindu identity /religion during these times.

inter marriage was not seen as an obstacle either and was infact encouraged along the same caste lines....

....it was only with the arrival of the British that words such as sikhi-ism and Hindu-ism were coined, largley to help the British differentiate between and understand the complex spirituality of the natives.....it was also during these times, towards the end of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire that the word sikh became more popular as a means to describe what was now begining to be seen as a more distinct religion, than the aforementioned khalsa which was more of an army/hieretichal description......

... therfore one should not be alarmed to note that the holiest shrine of the Khalsa panth (not religion) was named after a Hindu deity, and the practice of idol worship was implemeted by the largely hindu punjabi adherrents to the khalsa panth, soon after its construction...

it was only centuries later after the onset of the British paid historians such as Kahn Singh Nabha that distinctions were formed forged and two seperate belief systems were formed ...this eventually led to idols of the Hindu deities and Guru Harigovind being removed.....largely under the influence of Wilheim Leitner, Kahn Singh Nabha and Max Arthur Macauliffe.....

Navjot Singh Oberoi -

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I look forward to hearing from you guys . Ps i want to answer them with facts not abuse.

[Inder Singh]

Thanks Matheen but I need full answers to each of these points, with references.

This guy is most probably navjot2 and i debated with him on sikhawareness site. He has a skewed mind set influenced by Hinduism. He argued that Guru Gobind singh was asking blessing from devi durga in dasam granth. It was all made up by this guy.

He is also dead wrong in stating that idols were removed by British. idols were installed by Mahants when gurudwaras were under their control after British take over. The basic purpose of installing idols was to make money as Hindus will also visit in more numbers and hence more revenue. Mahant controlling Darbar sahib Tarn Traan was even allowing dancing groups to have stage in the parkarma for earning more money. Sikhs had to lay down their lives to stop that.

Tell them Sikhs are separate religion who do not believe in Hindu philosophy of idol worship. And hence no idols in Sikh Gurdwaras.

[Papi]

I bow down to this earth the biggest rock of creation and evolution…….obviously it makes me an idolater and a hieratic. :cool:

WAH!!! That was too wicked!

[Akal Purkh Ki Fauj]

I bow down to this earth the biggest rock of creation and evolution…….obviously it makes me an idolater and a hieratic. :cool:

No, you know you are ling ling the panda

"Ling is king"

giddar baaboo ki jai

[Goli Da Vair Sada]

I bow down to this earth the biggest rock of creation and evolution…….obviously it makes me an idolater and a hieratic. :cool:

WAH!!! That was too wicked!

you'l start bowing to the sun and moon next. what a foolish person. the funny thing is this guy actually thought he proved something,lol. might have sounded good to a few other idiots. but this guy would rather bow down to the biggest rock of creation then the creator himself who created it.

[Papi]

^ You know, it's not that far fetched of an idea to bow to both the Creator and his Creation

[apnepart2]

^creator can free you, his creation cannot.

[Matheen]

Manni, maybe you missed this, it was posted earlier. If our Guru had such strong views, there's no way his Sikhs would go against his wishes. From the most authentic reference of all, Guru Ji's own words:

From 33 Swaiyye, Sri Dasam Granth:

ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

कहूं लै ठोक बधे उर ठाकुर काहूं महेश कौ एस बखानयो ॥ काहूं कहयो हरि मंदर मै हरि काहूं मसीत कै बीच प्रमानयो ॥

Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥

काहूं ने राम कहयो क्रिशना कहु काहूं मनै अवतारन मानयो ॥ फोकट धरम बिसार सभै करतार ही कउ करता जीअ जानयो ॥१२॥

Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

जौ कहौ राम अजोनि अजै अति काहे कौ कौशल कु्ख जयो जू ॥ काल हूं काल कहै जिहि कौ किहि कारण काल ते दीन भयो जू ॥

If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥

स्त सरूप बिबैर कहाइ सु कयों पथ कौ रथ हांक धयो जू ॥ ताही को मानि प्रभू करि कै जिह को कोऊ भेदु न लेन लयो जू ॥१३॥

If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥

कयों कहु क्रिशन क्रिपानिध है किह काज ते ब्धक बाण लगायो ॥ अउर कुलीन उधारत जो किह ते अपनो कुल नासु करायो ॥

Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥

आदि अजोनि कहाइ कहो किम देवकि के जठरंतर आयो ॥ तात न मात कहै जिह को तिह कयों बसुदेवहि बापु कहायो ॥१४॥

He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥

कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥

Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

[Papi]

^creator can free you, his creation cannot. :rolleyes:

Way to miss my point :rolleyes: