Raag

[Singh-in-Welling]

Is it just me......or is raag a must! we can talk about all these different styles of kirtan, but if the shabads sung are not in raag then isn't is going against Maharaj's Hukum?

i've been going through old topics that talk about we should not say other styles of kirtan are wrong....but we are not here to judge, but to follow Maharaj's Hukum! has this tradition, of not only listening to Maharaj's commands but singing in the correct format (raag) been lost throughout the world?

it's virtually changing Gurbani! for example, people singing in raag bhairo instead of raag raamkali, have literally changed what Maharaj is trying to tell us!

i've heard many people saying "it's not abut raag, but singing with pyaar"....but how can we sing with pyaar if we are not listening to what Maharaj is trying to tell us! to be honest the number of raagis out there that sing in the raag ordered by Maharaj are vastly outnumbered to those that do not sing in raag!

i've been having this argument for a long time now.....and now it just seems to look like i'm wrong! for example, people like Giani Amolak Singh Ji did not use to sing or teach kirtan in raag all the time, but look how many people got anand from singing along with them. am i wrong to believe that we should sing a shabad in the raag that Maharaj has written it in?

is it just me?

[Papi]

Raag kirtan is the purest form of kirtan as prescribed by Guru Sahibaan themselves. Sadly the practice of singing in Raag has diminished to a large extend and doing so still. Efforts have been made in the past (even on going) to preserve this Gurmat tradition by Gurmukhs such as Late Bhai Avtaar Singh Jee, Bhai Balbir Singh Jee, Dr Gurnaam Singh Jee and many more. Additionally Jawaddi Taksaal is famous for carrying out a raag samagam every year during the winter months. I have personally talked to a few raagi's and asked why they are deviating from raags (they clearly had deep knowledge of raags) and the reply I got was that sangat does not want to listen to raags anymore...

[Singh-in-Welling]

cheers for the reply! i rate everyone nowadays that are promoting and teaching traditional raag kirtan!

but there were and are kirtan programs that are in performed in front of the sangat of Sants and Mahapurkhs, such as Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji and Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji....and the kirtan sung hasn't been in raag! if i am right, believing we should sing kirtan in the raag given by Maharaj, then why did these Sants allow kirtan to be sung in a different raag? is raag therefore not as important?

(people that "are in charge" of) Guruduare in the world allow kirtan to be sung in different raags, as to those prescribed by Maharaj...are they wrong in allowing this? is the promotion and allowance of kirtan not sung in raag as bad?

[Khaalis]

This is a big and complex topic – I will only make a few points here, for anyone that is really interested – there are some great threads discussing the issues in depth in the Gurmat Sangeet section of a forum which is not allowed to be mentioned on SikhSangat.com.

- Kirtan Maryada is the clearest and most undisputable maryada in the Panth – it is written in the Sirlek (instruction title) of nearly every single bani in Guru Granth Sahib.

- Up until the SGPC took over the Gurdwarai 90 years ago, Rababis, Raagis etc were still performing kirtan in Sirlek Raag using Gurus Tanti Saaj. After SGPC took over, tanti saaj were dismissed and harmonium introduced.

- The first instances of non-raag/simple folk type kirtan was started by teh Sant movement i.e. Sant Attar Singh Ji as a response to the massive Missionary preaching going on in Punjab by Christians who were using vaajai and simple folk styles and language to convert uneducated populace – this is where the dhhaarna tradition started by Sants - do kirtan parchaar in the same format as the Missionaries.

- The present rvaaj of filmi kirtan which infects all main jathebandiyan inc AKJ, Taksal etc, started with the development of cinema and all india radio which was the single form of communication/information for decades before the TV was introduced – the affect of all india radio was astronomical...

- Amateur kirtani replaced seasoned trained professional Raagis who had dedicated their whole life to learning this beautiful art of the Guru – as they amateurs were cheaper to employ – they could learn vaaja in a few weeks/months as opposed to tanti saaj which takes longer and requires dedication and a real understanding of music.

- People have become personality worshippers, swapping their Gurus own mat for the opportunity to copy their role models and use their actions as a justification to warrant their decision to not learn proper kirtan.

- Sant kirtan is understandable as per the above explanation but this style was adopted by Bhai Randhir Singh and other famous personalities for the purpose of parchaar etc. We do not need to judge these Gurmukhs actions, what they did, they know and it is between them and Akaal, we should not try to copy others, but simply listen to our Gurus hukum.

Raag has far from disappeared – Namdhari Parampara has a strong tradition, we have many professional Raagis in India and outside India who have done great work in preserving traditions, we have texts with puratan reetan which have been published etc etc... there is a growing number of gurmat sangeet schools worldwide, the future looks orange.

[KEERPA]

it's virtually changing Gurbani! for example, people singing in raag bhairo instead of raag raamkali, have literally changed what Maharaj is trying to tell us!

so start learning raag kirtan.

Naamdharis keep some traditions and ignore other traditions. They do sing raag etc but (Ive seen them pass a Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib like a phonebook while their Guru was doing a sermon etc) Every since Guru Arjan Dev Ji setup the tradition of Prakash of Adi Granth Sahib we have always held fierm to the tradition of Prakash/SUkhasan etc and just because they have a human Guru doiesnt mean you can passs a Bir around like that. (it mad me mad wen I saw this, I was like just because you look at some guy as Guru doesnt mean you dont need Prakash etc cause all the Gurus after Guru Arjan Dev still respected Gurbani Saroops by having Prakash etc......

Ive been reading books about Naamdhari and Ram Singh himself never called himself Guru but his succesors called him a Guru because he had a lot of Gurbani memorized and since he was in prisoned on an island for 14 years they declared him Guru etc...(but then how did he give Guruship wen he could have had a succesor "jathedar" but he himself never claimed to be Guru. British tyrants installed them as favorable people to mess up Sikhi until they to(naamdharis) were jumping in front of cannons in sacrifice to the british tyranny. There are lots of ways that you can go back to naamdhari history that doesnt add up at all. They say Guru Gobind Singh snuck out of his sanskar and moved to Nabha and changed his name to Ajaypal Singh and died in 1812 at 146 years old before giving baba balak singh guruship which he then gave baba ram singh guruship etc....... They gave guruship to a new guru while ram singh died but they still believed he was alive (if they thought he was alive [even though he was dead] how could they give guruship to someone?????)

SO yes naamdhari hold raag kirtan but make up other traditions so I wouldnt go as far as saying because they do raag kirtan makes up for them beliving in jagjit singh as guru etc......

[Bairagi Singh]

keerpa seems very knowledgeable, just because he is persuasive doesn't mean the knowledge behind the persuasive language is always correct.

Oh well, Namdhari's are a banned topic on SS and I won't be talking about them, or the way they conduct themselves.

What I will say is, people who want to to hear kirtan will hear it no matter what... There is a certain tradition that has been given to us, I can count names of people who are still under that lineage of kirtan on my hands, which is not a pretty thing.

Famous people such as Sri Nagar wale Harjinder singh and Anoop Singh, read bani everyday... how can they forget what the beginning line of the shabad says?

Its funny, WE ALL pick and choose what we want to believe, what makes us happy, and what fits in with the people around. However this is not always the right way to go...

[Khaalis]

Keerpa, kindly stick to the topic, we are discussing - kirtan. Learn to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Just because a personality is famous doesn't make them right, Hajinder Singh and Sant Anoop Singh are 2 of the biggest users of Bollywood tunes, this is not a reflection on their personality/spirituality in any other way - but fact is fact, they do filmi kirtan - and it is the popularity of these tunes which are blasted across Sky adn Radio that many sangatans mind joins to... this is why most Gurdwarai committees order Raagi Jathaas to not sing in Raag - so the Sangat numbers and 'Peta' doesn't get affected - kirtan (on the whole) is nothing more than A - a business and B - a Political tool (used for increasing Jathaa/Dera numbers) C - a Popularity device.

What needs to change is the Sangats attitudes - through them, the Committees and further the Raagi Jathaas can be pressured into learning and performing Gurus parvaan and sampooran kirtan.

[KEERPA]

hehe I clarified why naamdhari kirtan shouldnt be allowed thru your speakers.

now this is somewhat off topic

Learn to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

This saying technically cant be used in proper context: Back in the day (in the US and england) people would only take a bath once a year and the father would take his bath first then the mother then each of the kids and then the baby would have the dirtiest bath water(they all used the same bath water) well the water was so dirty that you could hypothetically lose the baby in the dirty water and metaphorically throw the baby out with the bath water because it was so nasty. SO how can this statement be used correctly?/ I dont know beats me :lol:

It is because the use of harmonium instead of the correct Gurmat instruments being used. It takes about 6 seconds to learn to play harmonium and at least a year to learn to properly play any stringed instrument. Finger placement and then how well you feel the instrument is how to play any stringed instrument, while anyone can pump air into a box and push a button. Then the people who "master' the harmonium only do major alaap improvisions which doesnt even fit in the melody most of the time.

Its the difference from learning to play jori or tabla and typing your name on a computer keyboard.

Throw your harmonium away and buy a dilruba/taus/sarangi/sarod/rabab/esraj/sitar/jori/dholek/tabla etc and learn from scratch if you want to start to learn kirtan. Trust me youll feel like an alien from outer space at first but once you put your time and effort in youll impress everyone that hears true Kirtan once you can play kirtan for Sangat. We arent here to impress from your kirtan but that you learned to play a Gurmat instrument etc, and that will inspire others to also adopt the true way of kirtan.

Go ask all these kirtan masters to play a stringed instrument and watch them drop 60stories in level because they only know to play harmonium that everyone claims to be called "vaja". Stop calling a harmonium a "vaja" because its not heavenly music but a harmonica on steriods :lol:

I know this sounds odd but its true.

[sikhsta]

Posted Yesterday, 06:03 AM

Raag kirtan is the purest form of kirtan as prescribed by Guru Sahibaan themselves. Sadly the practice of singing in Raag has diminished to a large extend and doing so still. Efforts have been made in the past (even on going) to preserve this Gurmat tradition by Gurmukhs such as Late Bhai Avtaar Singh Jee, Bhai Balbir Singh Jee, Dr Gurnaam Singh Jee and many more. Additionally Jawaddi Taksaal is famous for carrying out a raag samagam every year during the winter months. I have personally talked to a few raagi's and asked why they are deviating from raags (they clearly had deep knowledge of raags) and the reply I got was that sangat does not want to listen to raags anymore...

That's so wrong and such a shame, I absolutely love listening to raag kirtan its has such an amazing effect!