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Do You Believe You Have To Be Gursikh To Be A Sikh


jgill
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i know alot of ppl who find keertan boring and just can't connect spiritually yet still have a love for sikhi and god

THen they are stupid yes I said it "stupid". What does Gurbani say about kirtan?????

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਲ ਜਿਤੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥

To live as Gurmukh is the lifestyle by which we come to meditate on the Supreme Lord. The Gurmukh sings the keertan of His Praises.

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ਕਲਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the kirtan of the Lord's Praise has appeared as a Light in the world.

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ਰਾਮ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਲਿਵ ਮੀਠਾ ॥

Lovingly focused upon the Guru, the kirtan of the Lord's Praise has become sweet to me.

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ਸੁਣਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਧ ਪਹਿ ਜਾਇ ॥

Listen to the keertanof His Praises, at the Feet of the Holy.

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ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

I have obtained the reward of the keertan of the Lord's Praises, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

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ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥

Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved.

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ਅਖੰਡ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਚੂਰਾ ॥

The unbroken kirtan of the Lord's Praises is their food and nourishment.

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ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਆਧਾਰੇ ॥

The devotees dwell there, with the kirtan of the Lord's Praises as their support.

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ਵੈਰ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਮਿਟੇ ਤਿਹ ਮਨ ਤੇ ॥

Hatred and alienation depart from those

ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋ ਸੁਨਤੇ ॥

who, as Gurmukh, listen to the kirtan of the Lord's Praises.

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ਜੀਵਤ ਸੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਹੋਏ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨਿ ਜਾਗੇ ॥

Those who remain awake to the kirtan of the Lord's Praises - their lives are approved.

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ਹਮਰੈ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਰਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਉ ਹਉ ਇਕੁ ਖਿਨੁ ॥

My ears hear the Lord's kirtan, and I contemplate Him; without the Lord, I cannot live, even for an instant.

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ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੋ ਕੋ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਪੀਵੈ ॥

How rare is that person who drinks in the Ambrosial Essence of the Lord's kirtan.

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ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਈ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮੀਠ ਲਗਾਨ ਜੀਉ ॥

One whose mind is pleased with the kirtan of the Lord's Praises, attains the supreme status; the Lord seems so sweet to her mind and body.

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ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਪਦੁ ਊਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਾਝਾ ॥

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the kirtan of the Lord's Praise brings the most noble and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru.

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ਉਰਝਿਓ ਕਨਕ ਕਾਮਨੀ ਕੇ ਰਸ ਨਹ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਗਾਈ ॥

I am entangled in the love of gold and women, and I have not sung the kirtan of God's Praises.

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ਤਹਾ ਬੈਕੁੰਠੁ ਜਹ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਲਾਇਹਿ ॥

That place is heaven, where the kirtan of the Lord's Praises are sung. You Yourself instill faith into us.

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ਕਥਾ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਰਾਗ ਨਾਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਬਨਿਓ ਸੁਆਉ ॥

This is my life's purpose, to sing the kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and listen to the vibrations of the sound current of the Naad.

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ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥

The love of God is their food, and the keertan of the Lord's Praise is their support.

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ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕ ਹੀਰਾ ॥

The kirtan of the Lord's Praise is a priceless diamond.

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ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਰਾਮ ॥

Meet with the holy, humble servants of God; meeting with the Lord, listen to the keertan of His Praises.

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ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਲਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਵਣੇ ॥

O my mind,in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga,the kirtan of the Lord's Praises is worthy and commendable.

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ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਲਜੁਗ ਵਿਚਿ ਊਤਮ ਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕਥਾ ਭਜੰਤੀ ॥

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the kirtan of the Lord's Praise is lofty and exalted. Following the Guru's Teachings, the intellect dwells on the sermon of the Lord.

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ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਓ ਮਨਿ ਉਘਰੇ ਕਪਟ ਕਪਾਟ ॥

When one follows the Guru's Teachings, and sings the keertan of the Lord's Praises, the doors of the mind, held shut by deception, are thrown open again.

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ਖੁਲਿਆ ਕਰਮੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਭਈ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਈ ॥

Good karma has dawned for me - my Lord and Master has become merciful. I sing the kirtan of the Praises of the Lord, Har, Har.

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ਦੇਹੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨਿ ਮਨੁ ਠਹਰਾਇਦਾ ॥

Please bless me with the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, to satisfy my mind, O Lord. Through the keertan of Your Praises, my mind is held steady.

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ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਦੋਊ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਉਰਿ ਆਨੋ ॥

Leave behind both praise and slander; enshrine the kirtan of the Lord's Praises within your heart.

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ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਇਹੁ ਸਾਧ ਕੋ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥

This is the way of life of the Holy Saint: he listens to the keertan, the Praises of his Lord and Master, and meditates in remembrance on Him.

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ਭੋਜਨੰ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਕੀਰਤਨੰ ਅਲਪ ਮਾਯਾ ਜਲ ਕਮਲ ਰਹਤਹ ॥

They take the keertan of the Lord's Praise as their food; they remain untouched by Maya, like the lotus in the water.

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ਕੀਰਤਿ ਸਾਥਿ ਚਲੰਥੋ ਭਣੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗੇਣ ॥

So chant the kirtan of the Lord's Praises in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; this alone shall go along with you in the end.

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Now who is dumb enough to call themselves a Sikh but make stupid statements such as keertan is boring and you can love God better than through Kirtan??????????

OMG some people are so out of whack and try to claim they are Sikh and they follow Shabad Guru and they dont even know what is contained in Guru Shabad. They love to matha tek but not actually spend a few mins reading.

How stupid can some people be?????????

Some people try to claim "I am Sikh" but are they even conscious of what a Sikh is?????????

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As I said before jgill, tell us the difference meaning of these two terms as described in Gurbani. Also you keep going on about being a Truesikh. Tell us the difference between being a Sikh and a Truesikh as described in Gurbani.

There is no difference between any of these terms. They are just all one in the same, but to stress the meaning of Sikh Guru Sahib would put Gur or True infront of it. Sikh is stressed in some of the shabads because Guru Sahib wanted to show you must follow all the teachings laid down by the Shabad Guru and then consider yourself a Sikh.

If you look at history and see who was the first Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev ji the name Bhai Lehna ji would come up. What did Bhai Lehna ji do to become a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev ji? He followed everything and I mean everything Guru Nanak Dev ji told him to do. We all have heard the Sakhi and how Guru Nanak Dev ji's sons would disobey him. Now if you disobey Guru Nanak Dev ji would you really be considered Sikh of the Guru. Sikh of the Guru follows his Guru's word 100% and if you don't then your a Sikh of your own mind. Because whatever pleases your mind and seems right to your mind you do as the mind tells you.

So if you look at 'Sikhs' these days. Guru Sahib said keep your hair uncut, but these Sikhs don't follow this. But what they do follow is doing paath going to the Gurdwara when they get a chance. Then when a wedding comes they attend the reception, on the bases, if I don't go to his reception then they won't come to mine.

We all know Guru Sahib said stay away from bad sangat and don't attend these types of events. But still 'Sikhs' these days run, openly invite, openly provide alcohol, and openly attend these events. And if you look around 98% of them have cut their hair to fit the norm of society.

Surely some do their paath, but are any of them gaining anything from reading the paath day in and day out. Guru Sahib constantly says follow the Shabad Guru and these 'Sikhs' refuse to do so. Every morning they wake up read Jap ji Sahib and then go on their way committing their minds desired actions. No using my opinion or my definition of Sikh. But going on Guru Sahib definition then we would have to say NO these type are not Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. If most these guy are the 50% Sikhs or 60% Sikhs.

Now all of you that believe in a 50% SIkh is what Guru Sahib is calling SIkh in Gurbani should present the shabads. I know the GurSikhs, stressing Sikh here not differentiating for Sikh, knows that Guru Sahib says follow the Shabad Guru 100% and then you are considered a SIkh. But then again GurSikhs, don't want to push the slow developers or the newcomers away from Sikhi by sounding too extreme. They believe the slow developer will learn on his/her own what it means to be a Sikh. Completely understandable. But on the other hand you are also misleading majority of the public by giving the name Sikh to the 50% 'Sikhs' when Bhai Lehna ji had to work so hard for it and his love for Guru Nanak Dev ji was beyond this world.

Surely the 50% Sikhs will claim I have love for Guru Sahib, but even this love would be put in the terms as 50% or 20% or 80% or 90% etc etc. Again Guru Sahib is not looking for these percents. Yes he is glad you are moving along the Sikhi path and becoming a devoted follower of his, but in this progress don't try to demean what SIkh stand for because your or I are unable to follow it 100%.

never have run away when things have gotton thick, could you tell me were i have or are you just being dumb again

look at what i highlighted from your post, but yet you call kartar singh udham singh and ranjit singh sikhs even though they cut their hair had many wives and affairs drank achole ate meat but others non sikhs if they cut their hair or drink or whatever

tell me why call these guys sikhs and others non sikhs who drink or cut their hair and so on

this shows how big of a idotic hypocrite you are

do you know the definition of a hypocrite

Your still running man. Whether I or anyone else calls themselves a Sikh or another Sikh is not the discussion here based on a certain criteria. We are discussing how Guru Sahib, the Shabad Guru describes and defines a Sikh.

Status and fame of owning anything is trivial and does not hold up in Guru Sahibs court. Devotion and dedication is looked at as virtues. You seem not to get this so this is why your bring others names up in this arguement, which is again irrevelant.

Again we are defining a Sikh by Gurbani not looking at anothers downfalls and then justfying and find the definition of Sikh. And this is only done to make ignorant people realize Renu bakishis intentions on writing the article you presented and praise in so many ways as if it is the final word of God.

This is getting old and if your unwilling to answer the questions I put forward then in the next 2 or 3 post you won't get a response from me. Not going to waste my time with a person that only likes to rant and bring up baseless arguments.

now im going to answer your question, but you in return have to answer mine, i don't want to hear anything else accept an answer to my questions, is that fair, if not tell me why

and i believe a sikh is someone who loves his sikhi and works towards building a relationship with god, and someone who would die for god, but it doesn't mean someone has to be gursikh to want to die for god cause i know alot of ppl who find keertan boring and just can't connect spiritually yet still have a love for sikhi and god

i believe a sikh is a student of god and that to be a sikh you must grow in life and grow your relationship with god

i believe sikhi means learner

now my questions since i answered yours, im not insulting you or anything but don't run away from this question

you said that anyone who drinks or cuts their hair isn't a sikh

yet you call men like kartar singh udham singh ranjit singh sikhs

why do you believe kartar singh udham singh ranjit singh are sikhs

and why do you call them sikhs yet anyone else who cuts their hair or drinks a non sikh and a punjabi

cause by your definition of sikhism then we never had an empire it was a punjabi empire god didn't want to give any sikhs an empire it seems like

then their are no famous freedom fighters the sikhs produced by your definition of sikhism

This is truly sad.

what you gave me is what you think is Sikhi. And I didn't ask you about what Sikhi is to you. If you remember in the post i replied to you I wrote it is not ABOUT ME OR YOU OR ANYONE ELSE AND WHO THEY CONSIDER SIKH.

IT IS ABOUT GURBANI AND WHAT SHABAD GURU SAY HOW TO BE A TRUESIKH, AGAIN NOT DISTINGUSHING BETWEEN SIKH AND TRUESIKH JUST STRESSING SIKH HERE.

So tell us what a Sikh is and a Gursikh is by Gurbani definition. Since you distingushed the two tells us how these two are different and then use Gurbani to back up this claim.

I hope you can answer this simple question in this life time. It would be really valuable to you

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no whats sad is all the so called gursikhs who drive sikhs away from the gurdwara with their hypocritical behaviour

i know in sikhi judging another person is bad as drinking is

cause only god can judge

but you have guys like ONLY FIVE, who go around judging non gursikhs, its guys like ONLY FIVE who are are begining to get attacked and are driving ppl away from the gurdwara

Reason i ask questions like do you think ranjit singh udham singh kartar singh are sikhs is cause a so called gursikh will say yea they were, but these same so called gursikhs will judge others who drink and say their not sikh, or who ever cuts their hair is not sikh

but a question for guys like ONLY FIVE

if kartar singh and udham singh cut their hair how can you call them sikhs yet others non sikh, you see how hypocritical your being by doing this

or saying ranjit singh is sikh but saying others arn't if they drink or participate in pre marital sex or what ever

What i believe is dumb

and i don't believe you need to love keertan to love god, so tell me if someone is willign to die for god, but has a problem connecting spiritually to god say things through kirtan, then how can you say they don't love god??????

and ppl rather then just ask questions answer mine and ask questions, ONLY FIVE i answered your question but your avoiding mine, cause i just exposed you as the hypocrite you are, go look up the definition of a hypocrite, practise what you preach

and for everyone else, if you can call men like ranjit singh udham singh kartar singh sikhs, yet say someone else isn't cause they cut their hair, then

see ranjit singh needed to drink and have sex, he loved hunting and eating meat, yet he loved god and sikhi, so how can you say if someone else can't be a gursikh can't love god, here's a man who did more then any other sikh

but if your going to say this person or that person isn't sikh cause they cut their hair or drink then you might as well say

then you might as well say punjab never had a empire, cause according to alot of your guys definition of sikh then ranjit singh isn't a sikh

and that sikhs never had any famous freedom fighters

cause udham singh and kartar singh cut their hair, heck udham singh time to time would say he was sikh hindu muslim and change his name to follow these three names, but their so called gursikhs like ONLY FIVE who tries to tell others a definition of a sikh yet udham singh doesn't fall into your definition of a sikh and you call him one, which shows how big of a hypocrite your kind our

Honestly theirs alot of ppl at each gurdwara in every city around the world and on these forums who are so called gursikh and yet judge others and say this person isn't a sikh or this person is a bad sikh cause these guys say they don't fit the definition of sikhi yet they'll call guys like ranjit singh udham singh kartar singh sikhs even though they don't fit into the definition of sikhi which shows, they are insecure judgemental low confident human beings

Once again ONLY FIVE, can you tell me when kartar singh udham singh and ranjit singh don't fit into the definition of what you say gurbani says is a sikh, then why call them sikhs yet judge others and say this person isn't a sikh

and a warning ONLY FIVE, if you judge the wrong person out in the world, they might physicall attack you cause human nature is ppl hate being judged and get angered by it, hence why so called gursikhs like yourself drive ppl away from the gurdwara

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no whats sad is all the so called gursikhs who drive sikhs away from the gurdwara with their hypocritical behaviour

Here again you distingush between Gursikh and SIkh. You keep running fromt he question where in Gurbani these two are distguished. You act like you know alot about SIkhi so this simple question shouldn't be hard to answer.

i know in sikhi judging another person is bad as drinking is

cause only god can judge

Are you sure. Do you know the wrd judging can be used in many ways and it is not always used in a wrong way. Well you just judged all Gusikhs and said they drive other Gursikhs out of Gurdwaras.

but you have guys like ONLY FIVE, who go around judging non gursikhs, its guys like ONLY FIVE who are are begining to get attacked and are driving ppl away from the gurdwara

Yes I admit i chase everyone out of the GUrdwara. I stand infront with a broom in hand and give anyone a good run who doesn't walk away. And here you go judging me. When you don't even know me or have never met me. You started off by saying judging is bad and now you just judged. Now it's appropriate to use the word hyprocite.laugh.gif

Reason i ask questions like do you think ranjit singh udham singh kartar singh are sikhs is cause a so called gursikh will say yea they were, but these same so called gursikhs will judge others who drink and say their not sikh, or who ever cuts their hair is not sikh

I never said these guys are Sikh or not. Ask any TrueSikh, again not differentiating between Sikh and Truesikh just stressing SIkh here what these guys actions represent. IT's common in the punjabi community to always justfy being SIkh by anothers bad actions. Isn't this the coward way out. Saying I'll fight for Sikhi, which is always just a front, for saying I'll take the easy way out. THese cowards find it difficult and don't want to follow GUru Sahibs teaching, and Guru Sahib calls these guys Manmukhs; so they try to justfy their actions by saying I'll fight. Read Gurbani this is taught as wrong behaviour jgill, the udham Singh wannabe.

Hey jgill who is your Guru, Udam SIngh or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? And I am truly asking for a response here, not trying to be funny at all here.

but a question for guys like ONLY FIVE

if kartar singh and udham singh cut their hair how can you call them sikhs yet others non sikh, you see how hypocritical your being by doing this

or saying ranjit singh is sikh but saying others arn't if they drink or participate in pre marital sex or what ever

Tell me where I even said these guy are Sikh or not. While your at it add Bhagat SIngh in there aswell. Again read history, not the baised history you liked to rant about, but the true history about these guys. What they did and for what reasons and why they did it.

What i believe is dumb

and i don't believe you need to love keertan to love god, so tell me if someone is willign to die for god, but has a problem connecting spiritually to god say things through kirtan, then how can you say they don't love god??????

Tell you the truth man. No one cares what you believe. If you want people to follow what you believe then go start a dera where you are the Guru and some idoits will be your disciples. Your on a Sikhi site and this is where Sikhi is discussed and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the teacher we follow. Guru Sahib spoke against what you just said above and you can go have a cow about it, but no Sikh will ever listen to you because Shabad Guru is the Guru, not you pal. If i bursted your bubble of you not being GUru then I am truly sorry man, but reality is hard to face for some.

People that have a problem connectiing spiritually with God is because they have no dedication and devotion. They don't do paath, they don't want to listen to kirtan or listen to paath because it is like poison to their hears. I would know i was there in this position. Sorry bro, but if you put in the effort to do paath and listen to paath then you won't be saying these types of things. Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji said that the Sikh code of conduct is more dear to me than the Sikh.

and ppl rather then just ask questions answer mine and ask questions, ONLY FIVE i answered your question but your avoiding mine, cause i just exposed you as the hypocrite you are, go look up the definition of a hypocrite, practise what you preach
You haven't answered the question at all. Just told us your opinion, which is useless, since we are speaking about SIkhi and how Guru Sahib defines Sikhi. Everyone in this world's opinion is useless here. So don't think I am just targeting you here. You need to stop falsely accusing me on things I never said.

and for everyone else, if you can call men like ranjit singh udham singh kartar singh sikhs, yet say someone else isn't cause they cut their hair, then

see ranjit singh needed to drink and have sex, he loved hunting and eating meat, yet he loved god and sikhi, so how can you say if someone else can't be a gursikh can't love god, here's a man who did more then any other sikh

but if your going to say this person or that person isn't sikh cause they cut their hair or drink then you might as well say

then you might as well say punjab never had a empire, cause according to alot of your guys definition of sikh then ranjit singh isn't a sikh

A person that loves God will never disobey him. A Sikh who loves his Guru will never disobey Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Which means they will not cut hair, drink and whatever else you can think of, which is against Guru Sahib teachings. Let's just remind you Ranjit Singh was called infront of Akal Takht and then beaten for his mistakes.

and that sikhs never had any famous freedom fighters

Sikhi is not for sale and we don't force or sell Sikhi to get new members. Also did you forget about Baba Deep SIngh ji, Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa; the SIkhs that represent Sikhi.

cause udham singh and kartar singh cut their hair, heck udham singh time to time would say he was sikh hindu muslim and change his name to follow these three names, but their so called gursikhs like ONLY FIVE who tries to tell others a definition of a sikh yet udham singh doesn't fall into your definition of a sikh and you call him one, which shows how big of a hypocrite your kind our

Never called anyone of those you listed a Sikh or not. PLus i don't have a definition of a SIkh. I use what Guru Sahib gave me. If you have a problem with this definition then let's go to Akal Takht and you can present your case. Better yet let's go to the Panj Pyare in B.C. and see what they have to say about your rant and wanting to go against Guru Sahib teachings.

Honestly theirs alot of ppl at each gurdwara in every city around the world and on these forums who are so called gursikh and yet judge others and say this person isn't a sikh or this person is a bad sikh cause these guys say they don't fit the definition of sikhi yet they'll call guys like ranjit singh udham singh kartar singh sikhs even though they don't fit into the definition of sikhi which shows, they are insecure judgemental low confident human beings

This is getting beyond old, tell me where I said any of the guys you listed are Sikh or not. You sound like a broken record man.

Once again ONLY FIVE, can you tell me when kartar singh udham singh and ranjit singh don't fit into the definition of what you say gurbani says is a sikh, then why call them sikhs yet judge others and say this person isn't a sikh

and a warning ONLY FIVE, if you judge the wrong person out in the world, they might physicall attack you cause human nature is ppl hate being judged and get angered by it, hence why so called gursikhs like yourself drive ppl away from the gurdwara

If you want to openly say people can drink and still call themselves a Sikh and I'm there. Then be ready to be confronted. I am very openly spoken in public when it comes to Sikhi. All these guys you name don't help your arguement at all. There actions speak for themselves and whether I say or not they are Sikh is not the topic here or worth anything. It's all about Guru Sahib and what he defines as a Sikh. I have said this about 100 times now, and you are still not getting it.

If udam SIngh doesn't fit in Guru Sahib definition of Sikh then there you have it he is not Sikh. What else to say more about this. Same goes for Ranjit, Kartar, and Bhagat Singh. Sikhi is not about being famous or praisning Sikhi to get more members.

Lastly, your trying to put fear in me by saying don't speak truth. Keep quiet. Your the complete opposite of what Guru Sahib taught us. And in your last sentence your premise does not prove your conclusion. I hate bragging, but just to prove a point. COme talk to me when you are able to get a drunk who was an atheist on the path of Sikhi. All it took was couple of talks with him and he was on his way to learning Sikhi and going to the Gurdwara regularly and left the life of clubing and partying behind. And I am the one that pushes people away from the Gurdwara.

Give it a rest now. You tried to prove a point and the point had no merit so it was just became a rant.

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