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First of all, I respect all SHAHEEDS. I have pics of Puratan and Vartmaan Shaheeds on my walls, computer, all over. So don't say I'm trying to slander any shaheed...

My question is: What is Sangats veechar on recent Kharku Freedom Fighters taking cyanide before getting caught and getting Shaheed?

I think we have to keep in mind, that they will be tortured, unwillingly could disclose some plans etc, and eventually killed in fake encounters or capital punishment.

Because I realised that even some Singhs in the movement were against this practice, Shaheed Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochal being one of them...

WJKK WJKF Ji

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First of all, I respect all SHAHEEDS. I have pics of Puratan and Vartmaan Shaheeds on my walls, computer, all over. So don't say I'm trying to slander any shaheed...

My question is: What is Sangats veechar on recent Kharku Freedom Fighters taking cyanide before getting caught and getting Shaheed?

I think we have to keep in mind, that they will be tortured, unwillingly could disclose some plans etc, and eventually killed in fake encounters or capital punishment.

Because I realised that even some Singhs in the movement were against this practice, Shaheed Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochal being one of them...

WJKK WJKF Ji

generally, i take it that to become a shaheed, a means that is out of ones control is how it happens. i dont think that anyone can make themselves shaheed! thats taking matters of god and hukam into your own hands, and then using manmat to gain the status of shaheed. i.e. suicide. they may have escaped, or not died and had a causeful death elsewhere. it is not known for absolute certian that their duty to the world ended when they thort it ended. they could have had an extra seva written for them that, because of their own decisions to sucide themselves, cant come true..

but this is just my view.

gurfateh jeeoz

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First of all, I respect all SHAHEEDS. I have pics of Puratan and Vartmaan Shaheeds on my walls, computer, all over. So don't say I'm trying to slander any shaheed...

My question is: What is Sangats veechar on recent Kharku Freedom Fighters taking cyanide before getting caught and getting Shaheed?

I think we have to keep in mind, that they will be tortured, unwillingly could disclose some plans etc, and eventually killed in fake encounters or capital punishment.

Because I realised that even some Singhs in the movement were against this practice, Shaheed Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochal being one of them...

WJKK WJKF Ji

fatheh,

r u sure baba gurbachan singh ji had a say on this because i knw 1 of his own men, surjit singh penta took a cyanide capsule during op blackthunder.

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generally, i take it that to become a shaheed, a means that is out of ones control is how it happens. i dont think that anyone can make themselves shaheed! thats taking matters of god and hukam into your own hands, and then using manmat to gain the status of shaheed. i.e. suicide. they may have escaped, or not died and had a causeful death elsewhere. it is not known for absolute certian that their duty to the world ended when they thort it ended. they could have had an extra seva written for them that, because of their own decisions to sucide themselves, cant come true..

but this is just my view.

gurfateh jeeoz

Interesting views... But I was thinking Bhai Sahib... If everything happens due to Waheguru's Hukam, then isn't suicide/consuming cyanide a Hukam aswell? I mean it gets confusing here, doesn't it?

fatheh,

r u sure baba gurbachan singh ji had a say on this because i knw 1 of his own men, surjit singh penta took a cyanide capsule during op blackthunder.

Yes I'm sure of having read it some time back. Baba Ji was sad about this practise, and also said these practises belong to Tamil Tigers and other stuff. And it is indeed quite interesting, since own of his own lieutenants consumed cyanide during the Operation Black Thunder (Surjit Singh Penta).

WJKK WJKF Ji

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committing suicide in any way or form is against sikhi. i think its written in dasam granth or one of the sakhis not sure thou that one who summits suicide is considered a a great sin and will be reborn as a ghost. e.g not attain mukti or reborn in life sycle to atain it.

fateh

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Cyanide takers are atamghaati and GURBANI tells us:-

"Atamghaati jagat kasaaee."

means suicide committing person is the biggest butcher of the world.

And Bhai Gurdas ji tells the definition of Shaheed as under :-

ਮੁਰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ਮੁਰੀਦੁ ਨ ਗਲੀ ਹੋਵਣਾ ।

muradaa hoi mureedu n galee hovanaa|

Only by becoming dead in life, i.e. totally detached, and not through

mere verbal jargon one can become a true disciple.

ਸਾਬਰੁ ਸਿਦਕਿ ਸਹੀਦੁ ਭਰਮ ਭਉ ਖੋਵਣਾ ।

saabaru sidaki saheedu bharam bhau khovanaa|

One could be such a person only after getting sacrificed for truth and

contentment and by eschewing delusions and fears.

And taking cyanide under fear of torture or anything else is not Shaheedi

as such a person is not Shaheed in the eyes of Sikhism because:-

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth ||

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ

purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle.

and

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥

jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||

If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥

sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||

then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥

eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||

When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥

sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||

give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

Bhul chuk khima WGJKK WJKF

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Piaario, please think about the situation before passing judgement. These Jujhaaroos are fighting a guerilla war; even the smallest slips of information can ruin things. They didn't do cyanide for their personal benefit to avoid torture or whatever; it was done with the benefit of the Panth in mind, so there was no chance of slipping sensitive information.

I think, more important than your actions, are your intentions.

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amen, raj_karega_khalsa

if knowingly going to ones death is suicide, isnt going to war pretty much suicide? that seems a bit flawed.

taking cyanide in the situations these jujharoos were in would be acts of war, not suicide because of too much emotional pain and stuff.

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ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥

Deh Sivaa bar mohe ihai subh karman te kab-hoon na taron||

O Great God, grant me this, that I may not hesitate from performing good actions.

ਨ ਡਰੋਂ ਅਰਿ ਸੋ ਜਬ ਜਾਇ ਲਰੋਂ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰ ਅਪਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕਰੋਂ ॥

Na daron ar(i) so jab jaae daron nischal kar apnoo joot karon||

I may not fear the enemy, when I go to fight and assuredly I may become victorious.

ਅਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਕੌ ਇਹ ਲਾਲਚ ਹਉ ਗੁਨ ਤਉ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥

Ar(u) sikh hon aapne hoo man kau eh laalach hau gun tau uchron||

And I may give this instruction to my mind and have this tempotration that I may ever utter Thy Praises.

ਜਬ ਆਵ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋਂ ॥੨੩੧॥

Jab aav koo audh nidaan banai at hoo ran mai tab joojh daron||231||

When the end of my life comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.231.

Joojh maron means hug the death fighting and not taking poison.

Guru Gobind Singh ji while sorrounded by one millionn army of Mughals

at Chamkor Sahib did faced the enemy bravely with only 40 SINGHS but

did not suicided,Guru Arjun DEV JI and Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji also faced

Shaheedi in the hands of enemy but did not ran away. So did Baba Banda Singh Bahadur after having captured by Mughals.There is not a single instance in the history prior to 1984 showing any incidence of taking poison (instead of facing death in battle while fighting. Death in war is SHAHEEDI and knowingly death by killing himself either by a weapon or by taking poison, is suicide.

Please understand the difference between Shaheedi and suicide on basis of historical facts and in light of Gurbani.

Bhul chuk khima WJKK WJKF

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And taking cyanide under fear of torture or anything else is not Shaheedi

as such a person is not Shaheed in the eyes of Sikhism because:-

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth ||

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ

purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle.

and

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥

jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||

If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥

sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||

then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥

eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||

When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥

sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||

give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

Bhul chuk khima WGJKK WJKF

Right... Do you take that literally or do you know that Gurbani uses "metaphors" at times? There are so many Shaheeds that weren't cut piece by piece... Or even in a battle field for that matter. Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dyal Das were cut piece by piece? Were they martyred in a battlefield? But still they are Shaheed. They FEARLESSLY accepted Death instead of giving up SIKHI, THATS what the shabad is about. Means EVEN if you get cut piece by piece (a kahavat as they say in Punjabi) you won't leave the battlefield...

When you go into a battlefield, you are also committing suicide in a way... When all those Puratan Singhs were given the choice to leave Sikhi/embrace Islam and Death, they choose Death, that is suicide...?

ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥

Deh Sivaa bar mohe ihai subh karman te kab-hoon na taron||

O Great God, grant me this, that I may not hesitate from performing good actions.

ਨ ਡਰੋਂ ਅਰਿ ਸੋ ਜਬ ਜਾਇ ਲਰੋਂ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰ ਅਪਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕਰੋਂ ॥

Na daron ar(i) so jab jaae daron nischal kar apnoo joot karon||

I may not fear the enemy, when I go to fight and assuredly I may become victorious.

ਅਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਕੌ ਇਹ ਲਾਲਚ ਹਉ ਗੁਨ ਤਉ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥

Ar(u) sikh hon aapne hoo man kau eh laalach hau gun tau uchron||

And I may give this instruction to my mind and have this tempotration that I may ever utter Thy Praises.

ਜਬ ਆਵ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋਂ ॥੨੩੧॥

Jab aav koo audh nidaan banai at hoo ran mai tab joojh daron||231||

When the end of my life comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.231.

Joojh maron means hug the death fighting and not taking poison.

Guru Gobind Singh ji while sorrounded by one millionn army of Mughals

at Chamkor Sahib did faced the enemy bravely with only 40 SINGHS but

did not suicided,Guru Arjun DEV JI and Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji also faced

Shaheedi in the hands of enemy but did not ran away. So did Baba Banda Singh Bahadur after having captured by Mughals.There is not a single instance in the history prior to 1984 showing any incidence of taking poison (instead of facing death in battle while fighting. Death in war is SHAHEEDI and knowingly death by killing himself either by a weapon or by taking poison, is suicide.

Please understand the difference between Shaheedi and suicide on basis of historical facts and in light of Gurbani.

Bhul chuk khima WJKK WJKF

Well, the battle in or after 1984 was not the same as in Guru Ji's times or Baba Banda Singh Bahadur's times.

Shaheed Sukhdev Singh Jhamke fought bravely in his last encounter, but he had only one bullet left. He shot himself in the head... It takes one courage to do that, don't you think so? He knew he would be tortured, and would (unwillingly) give out some plans... So he did himself, what the police was going to do...

WJKK WJKF Ji

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Guru sahib says that pehila maran kabool…. If these shaheed singhs took cynide, they are taking matters of death, and using munmut (from one viewpoint) to decide for themselves and taking their own into their own hands. To me, the way we >kabool< our death, is not by saying, ok, im gona die neway, so lets suicide.. its by realising that our breaths have been given by god to us to jup naam, and we cant turn around and reject this gift, as and when we please, or as and when we want to. Guru di dain hai!

On a wider note/higher level, yes. It is hukam. But on that same level and same wider note, it is also hukam that those people that (maybe) got raped, tortured and MDK’d (murder death killed), that whole thing, was also hukam. This is on a very wide note. A very high level of thinking. Back down on earth with moorakhs like me, things are different. People are not ready to say, that bad deed was done because it was hukam.

On the most basic level, the thort came from the peoples mind to take cyanide. This makes it munmut. Or at least if not mun mut, not gurmut. (cus nowhere it guru sahib duz it say that comit suicide. Apart from to kill our own mun to bring ego etc to zero…) so if this is not gurmut, it cant be in sikhi.

Another thing is that it may suggest (im not sujesting that this is the case!!!) but it may sujest that the ppl that took the poison wernt strong enough in their faith to withstand torture or, questioning. Just maybe.. they may have been scared of torture so thought, lets take the easy way out… if this was the case, then they have not KABOOLed their own death… however, here im just speculating.

There is also a thing in sikhi that if you commit suicide, you will become a prêt, a ghost, of I think, at least 200 years! because this was munmut and not from god, and heaven aint ready for you, and not even hell is ready for you (because heaven and hell are both under god), so you yearn belonging in an in-between world which will never be fullfuilled. Not nice I no, but that’s what it is. I cant remember all the baad deeds that are in the category that gets a soul the sentence of a ghost janam, a prêt janam. But like, the prêt joon was one of the things i.e. only part of the sentence that indra Ghandi received for what she did to humanity. The prêt joon is also the sentence (sentence as in >prison sentence<) for getting attached to property (sggs).. the others I cant remember if I even no of any others or not…. Neway, long post..

Gurfateh jeeo

In addition! Going to ones death in war is how to get shaheed, not after the war is done! After the job was done, did the surviving singhs in guru sahibs time suicide themselves? I should hope not! After battles were won, it would be preposterous to kill oneself!

YYYYYY!!!! People ask..

For they know nothing of the seva that guru sahib/god has in store for them!

I hope the points made above are significantly considered.

Gurfateh

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Piaario, forgive me, I don't mean to be disrespectful at all but I don't think - and i could be wrong - the people saying taking cyanide was manmat know much about guerilla warfare or armed resistance

gurfateh

i agree.

i dont no much about guerilla warfare, but i can differentiate between munmut and gurmut/hukam. i would like to ask though, what is the reason that is used in the mainstreem, for why the cyanide was taken?

to actively decide somthing that is not in line with gurmut, is munmut. or at least not gurmut!

please, im soz if i may be typing kaurra-ly.. its not my nature to speak sharply..

gurfateh

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I'm of the firm belief that Guroo Sahib is Ghat Ghat ke Anthar Ke Jaanath; Bhallae, Burae Kee Peer Pachhaanath. Guroo Sahib knows the intention behind every action, I'm not saying this should be used as an excuse to deviate from Rehit or Gurhukam, but there's an understanding there.

The taking of cyanide is, in itself, an act of warfare. If we extrapolate the idea of 'taking your life into your own hands,' alot of shaheedees would be invalidated according to us. Bhai Dilaavar Singh Babbar strapped a bomb to his body to eliminate a Panthic Dusht, Beant Sinh. Manmat? Khaalsay under the command of Akali Phoola Singh Jee, placed their shoulders under a cannon to support it in the battle of Multan - these Singhs didn't survive. They made a conscious decision to put their shoulders under the cannon to give it the support to fire knowing they wouldn't survive. Manmat?

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