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Cyanide And Shaheeds...


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And taking cyanide under fear of torture or anything else is not Shaheedi

as such a person is not Shaheed in the eyes of Sikhism because:-

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth ||

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ

purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle.

and

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥

jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||

If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥

sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||

then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥

eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||

When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥

sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||

give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

Bhul chuk khima WGJKK WJKF

Right... Do you take that literally or do you know that Gurbani uses "metaphors" at times? There are so many Shaheeds that weren't cut piece by piece... Or even in a battle field for that matter. Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dyal Das were cut piece by piece? Were they martyred in a battlefield? But still they are Shaheed. They FEARLESSLY accepted Death instead of giving up SIKHI, THATS what the shabad is about. Means EVEN if you get cut piece by piece (a kahavat as they say in Punjabi) you won't leave the battlefield...

When you go into a battlefield, you are also committing suicide in a way... When all those Puratan Singhs were given the choice to leave Sikhi/embrace Islam and Death, they choose Death, that is suicide...?

ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥

Deh Sivaa bar mohe ihai subh karman te kab-hoon na taron||

O Great God, grant me this, that I may not hesitate from performing good actions.

ਨ ਡਰੋਂ ਅਰਿ ਸੋ ਜਬ ਜਾਇ ਲਰੋਂ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰ ਅਪਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕਰੋਂ ॥

Na daron ar(i) so jab jaae daron nischal kar apnoo joot karon||

I may not fear the enemy, when I go to fight and assuredly I may become victorious.

ਅਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਕੌ ਇਹ ਲਾਲਚ ਹਉ ਗੁਨ ਤਉ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥

Ar(u) sikh hon aapne hoo man kau eh laalach hau gun tau uchron||

And I may give this instruction to my mind and have this tempotration that I may ever utter Thy Praises.

ਜਬ ਆਵ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤ ਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋਂ ॥੨੩੧॥

Jab aav koo audh nidaan banai at hoo ran mai tab joojh daron||231||

When the end of my life comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.231.

Joojh maron means hug the death fighting and not taking poison.

Guru Gobind Singh ji while sorrounded by one millionn army of Mughals

at Chamkor Sahib did faced the enemy bravely with only 40 SINGHS but

did not suicided,Guru Arjun DEV JI and Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji also faced

Shaheedi in the hands of enemy but did not ran away. So did Baba Banda Singh Bahadur after having captured by Mughals.There is not a single instance in the history prior to 1984 showing any incidence of taking poison (instead of facing death in battle while fighting. Death in war is SHAHEEDI and knowingly death by killing himself either by a weapon or by taking poison, is suicide.

Please understand the difference between Shaheedi and suicide on basis of historical facts and in light of Gurbani.

Bhul chuk khima WJKK WJKF

Well, the battle in or after 1984 was not the same as in Guru Ji's times or Baba Banda Singh Bahadur's times.

Shaheed Sukhdev Singh Jhamke fought bravely in his last encounter, but he had only one bullet left. He shot himself in the head... It takes one courage to do that, don't you think so? He knew he would be tortured, and would (unwillingly) give out some plans... So he did himself, what the police was going to do...

WJKK WJKF Ji

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Guru sahib says that pehila maran kabool…. If these shaheed singhs took cynide, they are taking matters of death, and using munmut (from one viewpoint) to decide for themselves and taking their own into their own hands. To me, the way we >kabool< our death, is not by saying, ok, im gona die neway, so lets suicide.. its by realising that our breaths have been given by god to us to jup naam, and we cant turn around and reject this gift, as and when we please, or as and when we want to. Guru di dain hai!

On a wider note/higher level, yes. It is hukam. But on that same level and same wider note, it is also hukam that those people that (maybe) got raped, tortured and MDK’d (murder death killed), that whole thing, was also hukam. This is on a very wide note. A very high level of thinking. Back down on earth with moorakhs like me, things are different. People are not ready to say, that bad deed was done because it was hukam.

On the most basic level, the thort came from the peoples mind to take cyanide. This makes it munmut. Or at least if not mun mut, not gurmut. (cus nowhere it guru sahib duz it say that comit suicide. Apart from to kill our own mun to bring ego etc to zero…) so if this is not gurmut, it cant be in sikhi.

Another thing is that it may suggest (im not sujesting that this is the case!!!) but it may sujest that the ppl that took the poison wernt strong enough in their faith to withstand torture or, questioning. Just maybe.. they may have been scared of torture so thought, lets take the easy way out… if this was the case, then they have not KABOOLed their own death… however, here im just speculating.

There is also a thing in sikhi that if you commit suicide, you will become a prêt, a ghost, of I think, at least 200 years! because this was munmut and not from god, and heaven aint ready for you, and not even hell is ready for you (because heaven and hell are both under god), so you yearn belonging in an in-between world which will never be fullfuilled. Not nice I no, but that’s what it is. I cant remember all the baad deeds that are in the category that gets a soul the sentence of a ghost janam, a prêt janam. But like, the prêt joon was one of the things i.e. only part of the sentence that indra Ghandi received for what she did to humanity. The prêt joon is also the sentence (sentence as in >prison sentence<) for getting attached to property (sggs).. the others I cant remember if I even no of any others or not…. Neway, long post..

Gurfateh jeeo

In addition! Going to ones death in war is how to get shaheed, not after the war is done! After the job was done, did the surviving singhs in guru sahibs time suicide themselves? I should hope not! After battles were won, it would be preposterous to kill oneself!

YYYYYY!!!! People ask..

For they know nothing of the seva that guru sahib/god has in store for them!

I hope the points made above are significantly considered.

Gurfateh

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Piaario, forgive me, I don't mean to be disrespectful at all but I don't think - and i could be wrong - the people saying taking cyanide was manmat know much about guerilla warfare or armed resistance

gurfateh

i agree.

i dont no much about guerilla warfare, but i can differentiate between munmut and gurmut/hukam. i would like to ask though, what is the reason that is used in the mainstreem, for why the cyanide was taken?

to actively decide somthing that is not in line with gurmut, is munmut. or at least not gurmut!

please, im soz if i may be typing kaurra-ly.. its not my nature to speak sharply..

gurfateh

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I'm of the firm belief that Guroo Sahib is Ghat Ghat ke Anthar Ke Jaanath; Bhallae, Burae Kee Peer Pachhaanath. Guroo Sahib knows the intention behind every action, I'm not saying this should be used as an excuse to deviate from Rehit or Gurhukam, but there's an understanding there.

The taking of cyanide is, in itself, an act of warfare. If we extrapolate the idea of 'taking your life into your own hands,' alot of shaheedees would be invalidated according to us. Bhai Dilaavar Singh Babbar strapped a bomb to his body to eliminate a Panthic Dusht, Beant Sinh. Manmat? Khaalsay under the command of Akali Phoola Singh Jee, placed their shoulders under a cannon to support it in the battle of Multan - these Singhs didn't survive. They made a conscious decision to put their shoulders under the cannon to give it the support to fire knowing they wouldn't survive. Manmat?

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I'm of the firm belief that Guroo Sahib is Ghat Ghat ke Anthar Ke Jaanath; Bhallae, Burae Kee Peer Pachhaanath. Guroo Sahib knows the intention behind every action, I'm not saying this should be used as an excuse to deviate from Rehit or Gurhukam, but there's an understanding there.

The taking of cyanide is, in itself, an act of warfare. If we extrapolate the idea of 'taking your life into your own hands,' alot of shaheedees would be invalidated according to us. Bhai Dilaavar Singh Babbar strapped a bomb to his body to eliminate a Panthic Dusht, Beant Sinh. Manmat? Khaalsay under the command of Akali Phoola Singh Jee, placed their shoulders under a cannon to support it in the battle of Multan - these Singhs didn't survive. They made a conscious decision to put their shoulders under the cannon to give it the support to fire knowing they wouldn't survive. Manmat?

that is a beautiful quote ji.

with the cannon thing, to do what is nessasary is needed. and that is shaheed. and munmut is not. and is also not a way of getting shaheed.

taking ones own life into ones own hands... what a concept. what a coonsept ji. to speak gennerally about this concept, as i can understand it, wont work, and this concept must be looked at in specified concepts. like the bomb dude, i am >specifically to this incident< unsure as to what to believe whether this is shaheedi or not. BUT! my gut instinct tells me that it IS shaheedi. y? cus its during warfare.this is y >i think< that im getting this gut instinct...

---------------------------------------------

as a side note

(just for completion, id like to say that if one is on the battle field and runing to the opponant, and then they suicide themselves while running, during this warfare, i am against this! for obvious reasons!!)

---------------------------------------------

but!

taking cyanide is an act of somthing other than warfare/war as i see it. because warfare definition is somthing like: disharmony amongst 2 sides/people/whatever.... After that this disharmony has been neutrilised, what then the need for warfare?? and against yourself at that!!!?? it just defies logic!?!?!? ohmy.gif

please reffer to my previous 'long' post where i stated that it is stupid if 'shaheed' singhs sucided themselves after winning battles. this argument stands, and will stand for a long time because to kill yourself after one has won the war/battle, is jus silly to be frank.(or alias! :) jokes!)

i think this prety much sumz it all up...

gurfateh

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please reffer to my previous 'long' post where i stated that it is stupid if 'shaheed' singhs sucided themselves after winning battles. this argument stands, and will stand for a long time because to kill yourself after one has won the war/battle, is jus silly to be frank.(or alias! :) jokes!)

Nobody is sayin that the Jujharoo's took cyanide AFTER winning a battle. Your going off in a tangent.

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please reffer to my previous 'long' post where i stated that it is stupid if 'shaheed' singhs sucided themselves after winning battles. this argument stands, and will stand for a long time because to kill yourself after one has won the war/battle, is jus silly to be frank.(or alias! :) jokes!)

Nobody is sayin that the Jujharoo's took cyanide AFTER winning a battle. Your going off in a tangent.

i dont think its a tangent but...

ok. my mistake.. but wen did they take it?? im sure not before or during the act.. i just thort that after they done the act, thats wen they done it.... but my mistake if they didnt...

gurfateh jeeo

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i dont think its a tangent but...

ok. my mistake.. but wen did they take it?? im sure not before or during the act.. i just thort that after they done the act, thats wen they done it.... but my mistake if they didnt...

gurfateh jeeo

The cyanide was taken when the Jujharoo's were caught by the police, or when their ammunition had run out. This was in order to prevent them giving out vital information about their groups during interrogation and torture by the security forces.

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i dont think its a tangent but...

ok. my mistake.. but wen did they take it?? im sure not before or during the act.. i just thort that after they done the act, thats wen they done it.... but my mistake if they didnt...

gurfateh jeeo

The cyanide was taken when the Jujharoo's were caught by the police, or when their ammunition had run out. This was in order to prevent them giving out vital information about their groups during interrogation and torture by the security forces.

dhan dhan guru ji de gurmukh pyaare naal sarbat da bhala hove.

the cyanide was taken when they got caught after thy had done the act.

i duno why they didnt just not give any information by not talking?? and just dissolve into god??

our core is guru. we look to them for anything. even role models. if none of the gurus suicided themselves (i feel paaap even just suggesting such a thing..please maaf karaadho) when say, punjve paatsaah sat on th tati tavi, then, why should we? hu are we to do that?? this is just my point.

lemi tell u sumin.. there was a chinese or japaneese general of an army..

he won bare battles n stuff. it is a tradition that, if the entire side lost, and the general/king got caught, they would take their own sword and then send it percing thrugh themselves. y? just to say that they will die by no ones elses hand apart from their own.

when our gurus got caught and such things, what did they do?? i wish to leave you with this question.

singhs that are ready to give shaheedi, are so solid that no one can break them. this is jus 1 of the reasons y shaheedi is so hard.

as a side point,:huh::umm:

(it can be said that the cyanide ppl didnt think that they could survive[mentaly] the questioning. implying that they wernt solid to give shaheedi, but this is just random talking.... this is an inferance on the previous point....)

suicide is so far away from sikhi that we just cant do it... we are not suppsed to...

we are supposed to (before we can even think about giving shaheedi) be so much dissolved into god. so much so that we are doing simran undin, walking sitting, sleeping, and if somone nudges you, or swears, or hurts you mentally physically, YOUR SIMRAN DONT STOP. AT ALL. only then can we even think of giving shaheedi..

we we are naam rasia, then no pain, no interigation or anything can touch us. dhan gur guru ji di sikhi!!!!

this is the only reason y i think that they made a mistake in suicide..

gurfateh jeeo...

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