Neeldhari?

[humkire]

_Moorak_ Jee,

As I stated, I had personal conversations with Pipli vale, and heard conversations between him and his closest ring of followers i.e papheh multi millionaires from the Singapore-Kuala Lumpur-Bangkok textile and sports goods Sikh business triangle, and it was crystal clear this was part of his own 'higher level-hush hush ' teaching that he was Guru incarnate, with his total encouragement and acceptance of those who believe him to be such. I do not even consider him a saint or higher level gurmukh but that is not for me to share here. As concerning your other point, it is imperative that heads of sempardas bear responsibility and check on the beliefs of their closest 'followers' or sewaks to ensure only tat gurmat is being followed and none of the romanticist beliefs about that person being an incarnation of one of our 10 Gurdevs. In their desire to portray loyalty, and achieve religious piety such people run the risk of becoming a problem to Sikhism through such twisted and truncated beliefs that hinder gurmat. In the process of adorning the paraphenelia and trappings of spirituality, touring around the globe with 'followers', and becoming popular, a silent rumour can startand snowball that one is a 'saint' or avatar, and as gurbani says, that person can end up a secret slave of his/her own ego, akin to a bumblebee getting trapped by surprise in the magnificent petals of a pretty blossoming lotus flower and losing its bearings and eventually its wings, leading to its death. Hence _Moorak_ Jee, it is better if you got out of this 'pembelbhusa' and focussed on being a simple Sikh not needing sempredas etc as a prop. Focus on gurbani, amritvela, nitnem, saas graas simran, satsang, sewa and nam dhan ishnan and rehat etc and you will receive blessings from God and Guru along the way.

[Guest _moorak_]

Humkire if this is what Pipli wali said, then he is totally wrong. As i said before, many neeldhari diagree with him, go onto FB and you will see a recent discussion about Pipli wali. But to claim he is Guru Nanak is totally wrong.

Head of sampardas should and do take responsibilty, but in some circumstances like Sant baba Jwala singh is no longer here, claims are made that he was guru Nanak. Sant Jwala Singh cant go and question these people now. Jeevani kahani of sants make it clear that they never made such claims. ultimate responsibilty is with a person who makes such claims that a sant is Guru Nanak, whether it be a sant like Pipli wali or a sevak of nanaksar, Harkowal etc.

Veer jee you said: 'Hence _Moorak_ Jee, it is better if you got out of this 'pembelbhusa' and focussed on being a simple Sikh not needing sempredas etc as a prop. Focus on gurbani, amritvela, nitnem, saas graas simran, satsang, sewa and nam dhan ishnan and rehat etc and you will receive blessings from God and Guru along the way'.

Sampardas were created by Guru jee. By making such claims that they are not needed, you are saying that you know better than guru jee. Is this what you call tat Khalsa? Sampardas are an ang of Sikhi. You are right about Amritvela, nitnem, Simran, seva etc but that does not negate the role of sants.

Jih ko bachan kamavan santan ka, So gurparsadi taria. (even after the role of the sant, guru dee kirpa naal sansar samundar tu manukh tar sakda).

Only Five as you said im not a Sikh in your eyes. Thats ok, you can express whatever you feel.

[Only five]

Only Five as you said im not a Sikh in your eyes. Thats ok, you can express whatever you feel.

Don't be a drama queen. There is enough of those on here already. Answer the questions I have for you. You were answering them fine in the past. How come you stopped now?

And sampardas have nothing to do with this thread because Neeldhari are not apart of them. So discuss them on a new thread.

[humkire]

_Moorak_ jee,

As far as I am concerned Guru Gobind Singh created on Vaisakhi the Khalsa. That is all that concerns me. If you and others want to further believe in sempardas and cults and can somehow justify it, and belong to such subgroups and derive your inspiration through this,it really is not my problem. I am not any less a Sikh for having nothing to do with subgroups and for focussing on just one single simple Khalsa family that does not need no subdivisions.

[Only five]

_Moorak_ jee,

As far as I am concerned Guru Gobind Singh created on Vaisakhi the Khalsa. That is all that concerns me. If you and others want to further believe in sempardas and cults and can somehow justify it, and belong to such subgroups and derive your inspiration through this,it really is not my problem. I am not any less a Sikh for having nothing to do with subgroups and for focussing on just one single simple Khalsa family that does not need no subdivisions.

This is exactly why Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj created the Khalsa. The whole Khalsa family is one and stays as one. There would be no discrimination on group. There could have/be different groups, but in the end they are still together as one Khalsa family, following the teachings of the Guru and not accepting any other belief of so called Sants and head leaders. If you look at the great leader of the past like Baba Deep Singh ji, they never discriminated on groups. They kept the unity under one Panth.

[Guest _moorak_]

Qoute

Do the Neeldharis perform Anand Karaj around a fire (haven) and not around Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj?

Depends which group. However many Neeldhari do haven. Personally I do not understand why. This is still practiced by the head of Nirmala's although i dont understand it i respect them for doing it.

Qoute

Do the Neeldhari wear shastar? If not, who told them not to wear shastar?

Again it depends. Sant Harnam Singh Kile wali took amrit and many neeldhari like Harbaljeet Singh (batala) also wear shaster. I do aswell. Those not wearing shaster come from the practice of Sikhs such as Bhai Ghanaya jee, SEvapanthi's, Gurbax Udasi, Some nirmala (not all, because some had shasters) etc who during Guru jees time were given asshervaad.

QOute

Do the Neeldharis bow down the Sants or so called Sants in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj?

I have told you about Pipli wali and people bowing to him. Go on Facebook and you will see a discussion between Neeldharis... like i told you before, alot of neeldhari disagree with some of his veechar... you will see this all discussed.

Qoute

Neeldharis were created in the 1960s, so you cannot compare Nihangs to them. Just like you can't compare Taksal to AKJ. AKJ was formed much later. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj started Taksal and Nihangs as schools and to this day they have stayed that way and have total respect for each other. Neeldharis on the other hand have been started by Harnam Singh, who was no Guru and anything he said against Gurmat (if he said don't wear shastar or other things you and mohinder pal are hiding from everyone else) is manmat and those orders don't mean a thing. They can mean something to that follower of his, but not to a Sikh who follows his Guru, Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. A person can utter follow Guru Sahib to the sangat, but if he turns around and say something contrary to Guru Sahib teachings then he/she is using Guru Sahib as a tool to pass his orders on others.

Sant Harnam Singh Kile Wali belong to the Nirmala/Sant samparda. Just like Harkowali and Nanaksar have respective names, it does not mean they do not form part of the Nirmala/Hoti MArdan samparda.

Humkire I never said you are anyless a Sikh, neither did i say you have to belong to a samparda. What i did say is that you are deleting history according to your own need. You are called sampardas cults, however guru jee started these sampardas. What is your proof that Nirmala samparda, Hoti MArdan, Sevapanthi, Nihangs, Udasi etc are not accepted and were not created by guru jee. Or have all the sants such as Sant Jarnail Singh, Sant baba Bir Singh, Sant Karam Singh Hoti mardan all been misguiding and lying to the sangat? Your need to read further into how the sampardas interact because its not simple as belonging to a sub group as you have stated.

Only Five you talk about Baba Deep Singh not discriminating but you are doing this yourself. You need to read puratan ithaas and not your own imagination.<Mod edit> However Baba Deep Singhs jhata still helped Baba Deep Singh jee. Then you need to read how nirmala samparda or so called sants as you call them were respected by nihang Singhs. You talk about how the old singhs kept unity... however you are the first one destroying it in this thread.

[mohinder pal]

Chaudan Jame Satgur Hovan Satar Bhagata Dhaar, Chaurasi Jame Pehar Ke Kalyug Karon Udhaar

[Guest Dont NINDO!]

"Visar Nahi Dataar" - It's sad, but you have gone astray from your Dataar - change your nick! And Also, I totally agree with your caption at the end of each of your "NINDIYA SESSIONS",

"With my mouth I speak slander, day and night. I spy on the houses of others - I am such a wretched low-life" Because you have just proved that that's what you are doing! Get a life, let people live the way they choose to. At least they are not converting to other religions, or terrorists. They are peaceful people.

The person whose faith is more, His God is Bigger! So get a life.. and stop criticising Mahapursh. If you were really actually interested in Gurbaani you would be meditating, doing simran and paht, not gong on the Internet and doing MANMATT.. So please, you shouldn't be allowed to judge anyone - if you want to, judge yourself and think about what you are doing.

If they were not considered Sikhs, as YOU THINK - - Sant Pipli Wale would not have been invited to BANGLA SAHIB GURDWARA in DELHI (which you can't say is not one of the most prominent gurdwaras for sikhs) to lay a foundation for the new building. So, Akal Takht recognises them as a SANT - so who are you to annul that?

Get on with your life, and if you have the guts, post this on your attack of a peace-loving sect.

[chatanga]

Did Harnam Singh tell the Neeldharis not to wear shastar or was it completely some one different?

Neeldharis were created in the 1960s...

Harnam Singh did not tell Neeldharis not to wear shastar, it was Baba Ram Singh NaamDhari who told the NaamDhari Singhs not to wear shastar. The NeelDharis are a schism from NaamDhari panth, and i think this was down to the use of the colour blue in the Khalsa bana. NeelDharis follow Baba Ram Singhs teachings just as the NaamDharis do.

It was Baba Ram Singh's idea to wear a small kirpan on the kanga, and this is what NaamDhari Singhs wear today. The havan wedding etc same as the NaamDhari Singh etc.

[Guest SantKhalsa]

Wahe Guru ji Ka Khalsa - - Wahe Guru Ji Di Fateh,

You know what I am sick and tired of all the politically correct VAD VIVAD that is going on in this discussion - Let's thrash the truth out in a few short Sentences

Sant Pipli Wale is today recognised, by the highest Sikh authorities, as a CHOTI day Sant - It's a Fact and Live with it

Sant Pipli Wale has on more than one occasion been acknowledged by the Mukh Granthi(s) of Sri Harmandar Sahib Ji

Sant Pipli Wale Ji has been presented, twice now, with the SRI SAHIB, from these Authorities.

You bunch of fools who talk about Matha Tek humans - Guru Ghar day Kootay no wi Matha Teki Da Hai - What's the bloody problem in bowing your head to Sant Pipli Wale who is a SERIOUSLY enriched Soul - Ooozing of respect of Baani and The Living Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) - In fact what's the problem in bowing your head in front of any Sant.

Tell you what - I even bow my head in front of the great many Raagis who recite the Sacred Guru Baani every single Day -

Does no one have any English Translation of Any Guru Baani - it is full of praise of Sant, Gursikh and continuously talks about BOWING your HEAD to these souls -

Finally before the boring small headed folks who expect me to come back and argue further - Please let me remind you of a very very important saying by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji - MOOORKHAI NAAL NA LUJHIYA - - Keeping that mind - it's pointless for me to respond to any further comments to this post -

Good Luck and May WaheGuru jI BLESS us all with - GURMAT - because it is the LACK OF GURMAT - that is the issue in this topic -

I leave you with some photos -

One shows the Sri Sahib that was about to presented to Sant Pipli Wale in Sri Harmandar Sahib Ji

One shows the Granthi in Sri Hazoor Sahib greeting Sant Pipli Wale

The other is a photo of Sant Pipli Wale Ji if anyone is interested to see what he looks like,