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Guest _Moorak

The website does not say which mahapursh have given them asheervaad for the website.

The website also has Sant Harnam Singh Kile wali's name, so whats your point about Sant Pritam Singh jee being on the website? All im saying is that there are sections of this website which do not fit what Neeldhari sants and books teach.

The title of this thread is Neeldharis - who are they? Therefore it has everything to do with Sant Harnam Singh jee kile wali, he was the one who started of the neeldharis. But you have decided to attack all neeldharis... just look at your previous comments attacking all neeldharis. now you have decided the turn the thread into manmat by sants.

If you want any further answers its best you come to India and meet the mahapursh and sangat.

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No one should follow the Neeldhari group because they do not teach everything about Sikhi according to Gurmat. They have changed things so they are a distincted group, which brings them more members.

I think thats the duty of Akal Purakh/ SGGSji to judge not individuals like us. Sometimes One son is far better than other even though they born from one Mother.

Why should anyone believe your story? The Neeldhari group believe in a 12th Guru, Ram Singh.

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Why would Baba Harnam Singh create a Neeldhari Panth, this is confusing the Sikhs by adding more sects within Sikhi. I have listened to alot of kathas of the present head they are good but why did they create a different panth and different bana. They should wear the 5ks and do parchar of Sikhi instead of there own sect.

I have no problem of satkar for mahapurkhs but no one should bow down to a self proclaimed sant in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib no matter how big he is.

heres a video that might give more information

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuuxHlNjb0w&feature=related

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Sant Brahmgyani Kilewale ji didnot create the new Sect or Panth(Neeldhari). Neeldharis are follwoing the same rehat of Dasam Patshahi. It is also Nihang sngh or Bhujangi Bana;- Wearing of Chakuta, Kamarkasa,Kanga,Kachera,Kes.....so on. They are not wearing Shasters because Sanagat was told that Now the time is to hold Simrana(Rosary) and do naam Jap; Time in future would come to hold shasters and fight(Degh Tegh Jag mein Dhuoon Chale).

If son(Sant and Mahapursh) is getting the respect infront of the Father(SGGSji) means the respect of the father in the other way. Neeldhari name just originated from the sangat becuase of Wearing Neela Bana but it is not not seperate sect. Nor any of the Sants in Neeldhari proclaimed self Guru; instead they bow to Dhan Dhan SGGSji.

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The website does not say which mahapursh have given them asheervaad for the website.

The website also has Sant Harnam Singh Kile wali's name, so whats your point about Sant Pritam Singh jee being on the website? All im saying is that there are sections of this website which do not fit what Neeldhari sants and books teach.

The title of this thread is Neeldharis - who are they? Therefore it has everything to do with Sant Harnam Singh jee kile wali, he was the one who started of the neeldharis. But you have decided to attack all neeldharis... just look at your previous comments attacking all neeldharis. now you have decided the turn the thread into manmat by sants.

If you want any further answers its best you come to India and meet the mahapursh and sangat.

So your not going to answer the questions? It's obvious you were not going to answer the questions from the beginning because you guys practice manmat practices and you don't want others to find out, only collect more members.

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Sant Brahmgyani Kilewale ji didnot create the new Sect or Panth(Neeldhari). Neeldharis are follwoing the same rehat of Dasam Patshahi.

He did create this new sect and Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji maharaj did not create no panth on what color you wear. But Harnam Singh did create a sect on what they wear.

It is also Nihang sngh or Bhujangi Bana;- Wearing of Chakuta, Kamarkasa,Kanga,Kachera,Kes.....so on.

Do you ever see a Nihang Singh classify themselves on what they wear. Nihang Singh were started by Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj. Guru Sahib never started any sect or panth on the color blue chakuta, kamarkasa, etc. Stop twisting the Khalsa Panth into some Brahmin thread wearing, lion skin carrying, with a a begging bowl.

They are not wearing Shasters because Sanagat was told that Now the time is to hold Simrana(Rosary) and do naam Jap; Time in future would come to hold shasters and fight(Degh Tegh Jag mein Dhuoon Chale).

Who told them not to carry shasters? Surely not Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji Maharaj because he made carrying of shastar a permanent code. Guru Sahib says don't come to me without shastar, so who is to say don't carry them?

If son(Sant and Mahapursh) is getting the respect infront of the Father(SGGSji) means the respect of the father in the other way. Neeldhari name just originated from the sangat becuase of Wearing Neela Bana but it is not not seperate sect. Nor any of the Sants in Neeldhari proclaimed self Guru; instead they bow to Dhan Dhan SGGSji.

It surely is a separate sect, since they don't believe in Gurmat ideas. You just listed one thing they don't do according to Guru Sahib. And this is no individual not carrying shastar, but a whole sect saying don't do it.

Do tell which person of theirs told them not to wear shastar.

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Guest _moorak

I have answered your questions. There is nothing more I can do if you do not have the faculty to understand.

Neeldhari do not try to collect memebers... again you are making false accusations. Neeldhari do parchar of Gurmat and have respect for all sants whether they be from Harkowal, Nanaksar, Dumellie etc...if Neeldhari are trying to collect members all mahapursh in the Sant Samaj would have rejected Sant Harnam Singh Kile wali, instead Sant Baba Jwala Singh asked them to lay foundation stone in historical gurdwaras in Gurdaspur distict. But todays Sikhs think they know better than well respected saints.

Guru Gobind Singh jee created Nirmala, Nihangs etc, you need to study more about these sampardas. Neeldhari ara part of Sant Samaj.As Mohinder jee has explained the name came later... just like Nanaksar name was given....

There is a difference between maata tekhna and pairee hath, this has been discussed before...all mahapursh had pairee hath done, whether taksali mahapursh such as Sant Jarnail Singh, Sant Gurbachan Singh or Harkowali and nanaksar... its another matter that mahapursh do not have iccha of such satkaar.

Nihang Singhs wear blue, what are you on about?

All your questions have been answered, however it is clear you have something against Neeldharis.

People like me will continue to get guidance from all sants, whether they be Neeldhari, Harkowali, Nanaksar etc... people like you are only speading zeher. I suggest you read the jeevani of Kile wali, Harkowali, Nanaksar etc and see how all these deras had piyar for each other and how many people they got into Sikhi... we can learn alot from these mahapursh.

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Sant Brahmgyani Kilewale ji didnot create the new Sect or Panth(Neeldhari).

Neeldharis are follwoing the same rehat of Dasam Patshahi. It is also Nihang sngh or Bhujangi Bana;- Wearing of Chakuta, Kamarkasa,Kanga,Kachera,Kes.....so on.

They are not wearing Shasters because Sanagat was told that Now the time is to hold Simrana(Rosary) and do naam Jap; Time in future would come to hold shasters and fight(Degh Tegh Jag mein Dhuoon Chale).

If son(Sant and Mahapursh) is getting the respect infront of the Father(SGGSji) means the respect of the father in the other way. Neeldhari name just originated from the sangat becuase of Wearing Neela Bana but it is not not seperate sect. Nor any of the Sants in Neeldhari proclaimed self Guru; instead they bow to Dhan Dhan SGGSji.

The Neeldhari Panth is a group within the sikhi which was founded by babaj Harnam Singh Ji (Kile Wale) in the year 1966.

If there following the same rehat of Dasam Patshahi wheres there shasters, who told them that in the future they will hold shasters and that now its only to hold simrana.

If you use the same logic i guess there was no problem of baba kham singh Sanatan Singh Sabha wala wanting to be bowed down to in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, because he should get respect infront of the father.

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I feel kinda lost reading through this entire thread! All this back and forth arguments about these Neeldharee people and their supposed sant/guru!( Mind that blue is one of my favourite colours next to white hehe)

All I can say is that back in 1992/93, when I had just arrived in the UK, I had to stay over Christmas with a relative with such connections. He said there is a satsang going and took me to a huge house somewhere around Southall, belonging to a wealthy Sikh guy from Malaysia whose family had migrated here(son the late Dato Ajit Singh, Malaysia.) I realised this was not a 'normal' satsang as there was the guy in the videos posted here called Pipli vale etc and the rest of the neeldharees there. They mentioned that he is also based in Bangkok and i recognised a lot of his followers as being from the businessmen(phapeh) community. Anyway being curious, I decided to learn more about this group so I had a few conversations, even with him personally. I realised that there are 'levels' within 'levels ' or layers upon layers of understanding them. Outwardly as it appears there is all the paraphenelia of Sikhism including metha tekking before SGGS, blue bana, kirtan etc. However, there is an 'inner circle' of knowledge and followers who are hush hush but believe firmly in him as the reincarnation of Guru Nanak Dev and as the present Guru(in comparison with the namdhari guru and other neeldharee contenders). They will say one is not required to believe in this, and it is a gyan that dawns upon a person naturally as you go level to level in your association with the group. What I have stated is not hearsay or an opinion but plain facts coming straight from them. There was hero worship beyond belief in my observation with die-hard followers totally trusting him as Guru incarnate though not being too outward in their claims.

My advice to anyone reading this is, stick to mainstream Sikhism, accept SGGS as Guru, focus on living life as a true and humble and honest Sikh and refrain from hero worshipping people. God has gifted each one of us with different strengths and blessings and abilities, hence respect these in people and work towards creating a strong Khalsa that is not subdivided into sects. A true Sikh never wants to leave any legacy or subdivision behind himself and lives and acts as a servant of the Khalsa. Take no pride if anyone calls you a saint, and rather act and behave as humble and normal person. Let even miracle powers God may confer upon you mean nothing and play down their significance when people talk about your 'powers' before you.

Our emphasis has to be about how to do Sikhi parchar, strengthen Sikh institutions and express Sikhi internationally in this 21st century rather than indulge in any more hero worshipping and mushrooming of cults and sub cults. We need to focus on a futuristic vision of Sikhi, that is built upon our rich past, and takes into account what is current and the shape of things to come.

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Guest _Moorak_

Humkire jee I agree that some sevaks go to far. I have met sevaks of all sampardas who say that a sant 'was guru Nanak Dev jee'. Ive heard Harkowali say Sant Jwala Singh was Guru Nanak, Baba Nand Singh was Guru Nanak, Baba maan Singh is Guru Gobind Singh. Mahapursh do make it clear that all the shakti belongs to Guru jee. When a mahapursh does bachan, some sevaks lose sight of the shakti behind the sant. Thats why Kile wali maharaj used to say all the shatki belongs to Guru Granth sahib and everything I achieved was due to Guru GRanth sahib jee.

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I have answered your questions. There is nothing more I can do if you do not have the faculty to understand.

You have not answered the following questions:

Do the Neeldharis perform Anand Karaj around a fire (haven) and not around Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj?

Do the Neeldhari wear shastar? If not, who told them not to wear shastar?

Do the Neeldharis bow down the Sants or so called Sants in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj?

Neeldhari do not try to collect memebers... again you are making false accusations. Neeldhari do parchar of Gurmat

What they do is, parchar of what they consider 'Gurmat' according to their Sants or head leaders. Who have adviced them against Gurmat, like not wearing Shastar. So according to Sikhi they are practicing manat and teaching manmat to others.

and have respect for all sants whether they be from Harkowal, Nanaksar, Dumellie etc...if Neeldhari are trying to collect members all mahapursh in the Sant Samaj would have rejected Sant Harnam Singh Kile wali, instead Sant Baba Jwala Singh asked them to lay foundation stone in historical gurdwaras in Gurdaspur distict. But todays Sikhs think they know better than well respected saints.

Did Harnam Singh tell the Neeldharis not to wear shastar or was it completely some one different?

Guru Gobind Singh jee created Nirmala, Nihangs etc, you need to study more about these sampardas. Neeldhari ara part of Sant Samaj.As Mohinder jee has explained the name came later... just like Nanaksar name was given....

Neeldharis were created in the 1960s, so you cannot compare Nihangs to them. Just like you can't compare Taksal to AKJ. AKJ was formed much later. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj started Taksal and Nihangs as schools and to this day they have stayed that way and have total respect for each other. Neeldharis on the other hand have been started by Harnam Singh, who was no Guru and anything he said against Gurmat (if he said don't wear shastar or other things you and mohinder pal are hiding from everyone else) is manmat and those orders don't mean a thing. They can mean something to that follower of his, but not to a Sikh who follows his Guru, Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. A person can utter follow Guru Sahib to the sangat, but if he turns around and say something contrary to Guru Sahib teachings then he/she is using Guru Sahib as a tool to pass his orders on others.

There is a difference between maata tekhna and pairee hath, this has been discussed before...all mahapursh had pairee hath done, whether taksali mahapursh such as Sant Jarnail Singh, Sant Gurbachan Singh or Harkowali and nanaksar... its another matter that mahapursh do not have iccha of such satkaar.

The videos posted above show that people bow down to pipli wale. Also you avoid the part where the bowing down to Sants or hed leaders is being done in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj presences. The video clearly shows people bow down to pipli wale in the presence of Guru Sahib.

Nihang Singhs wear blue, what are you on about?

You did not get the point. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj started the Nihangs on the school of teachings focused on warrior spirit. He did not start the Nihangs on the color blue. A Nihang Singh can wear black and he still will be a Nihang Singh. He can wear yellow, white, whatever color and still they will be a Nihang Singh. But the Neeldharis have the color blue right in their name. There group/cult/sect was built/started on the color blue. There focus on the color blue.

All your questions have been answered, however it is clear you have something against Neeldharis.

Yes what i got against Neeldharis is that they want to call themselves followers of Guru Sahib, but they first take advice from their Sant and then use Gurbani to justify their actions. Next one of them will say where does it say you have to wear shastar in Guru Sahib.

People like me will continue to get guidance from all sants, whether they be Neeldhari, Harkowali, Nanaksar etc... people like you are only speading zeher. I suggest you read the jeevani of Kile wali, Harkowali, Nanaksar etc and see how all these deras had piyar for each other and how many people they got into Sikhi... we can learn alot from these mahapursh.

What the Neeldharis do is get people to practice there way of religion. Guru Sahib is a tool for them, because as much as you don't want to admit it. They bow to their Sants first by following his orders and then only use Guru Sahib as a tool. Practice what you like, but don't call manmat practices Gurmat.

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_Moorak_ Jee,

As I stated, I had personal conversations with Pipli vale, and heard conversations between him and his closest ring of followers i.e papheh multi millionaires from the Singapore-Kuala Lumpur-Bangkok textile and sports goods Sikh business triangle, and it was crystal clear this was part of his own 'higher level-hush hush ' teaching that he was Guru incarnate, with his total encouragement and acceptance of those who believe him to be such. I do not even consider him a saint or higher level gurmukh but that is not for me to share here. As concerning your other point, it is imperative that heads of sempardas bear responsibility and check on the beliefs of their closest 'followers' or sewaks to ensure only tat gurmat is being followed and none of the romanticist beliefs about that person being an incarnation of one of our 10 Gurdevs. In their desire to portray loyalty, and achieve religious piety such people run the risk of becoming a problem to Sikhism through such twisted and truncated beliefs that hinder gurmat. In the process of adorning the paraphenelia and trappings of spirituality, touring around the globe with 'followers', and becoming popular, a silent rumour can startand snowball that one is a 'saint' or avatar, and as gurbani says, that person can end up a secret slave of his/her own ego, akin to a bumblebee getting trapped by surprise in the magnificent petals of a pretty blossoming lotus flower and losing its bearings and eventually its wings, leading to its death. Hence _Moorak_ Jee, it is better if you got out of this 'pembelbhusa' and focussed on being a simple Sikh not needing sempredas etc as a prop. Focus on gurbani, amritvela, nitnem, saas graas simran, satsang, sewa and nam dhan ishnan and rehat etc and you will receive blessings from God and Guru along the way.

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Humkire if this is what Pipli wali said, then he is totally wrong. As i said before, many neeldhari diagree with him, go onto FB and you will see a recent discussion about Pipli wali. But to claim he is Guru Nanak is totally wrong.

Head of sampardas should and do take responsibilty, but in some circumstances like Sant baba Jwala singh is no longer here, claims are made that he was guru Nanak. Sant Jwala Singh cant go and question these people now. Jeevani kahani of sants make it clear that they never made such claims. ultimate responsibilty is with a person who makes such claims that a sant is Guru Nanak, whether it be a sant like Pipli wali or a sevak of nanaksar, Harkowal etc.

Veer jee you said: 'Hence _Moorak_ Jee, it is better if you got out of this 'pembelbhusa' and focussed on being a simple Sikh not needing sempredas etc as a prop. Focus on gurbani, amritvela, nitnem, saas graas simran, satsang, sewa and nam dhan ishnan and rehat etc and you will receive blessings from God and Guru along the way'.

Sampardas were created by Guru jee. By making such claims that they are not needed, you are saying that you know better than guru jee. Is this what you call tat Khalsa? Sampardas are an ang of Sikhi. You are right about Amritvela, nitnem, Simran, seva etc but that does not negate the role of sants.

Jih ko bachan kamavan santan ka, So gurparsadi taria. (even after the role of the sant, guru dee kirpa naal sansar samundar tu manukh tar sakda).

Only Five as you said im not a Sikh in your eyes. Thats ok, you can express whatever you feel.

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Only Five as you said im not a Sikh in your eyes. Thats ok, you can express whatever you feel.

Don't be a drama queen. There is enough of those on here already. Answer the questions I have for you. You were answering them fine in the past. How come you stopped now?

And sampardas have nothing to do with this thread because Neeldhari are not apart of them. So discuss them on a new thread.

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_Moorak_ jee,

As far as I am concerned Guru Gobind Singh created on Vaisakhi the Khalsa. That is all that concerns me. If you and others want to further believe in sempardas and cults and can somehow justify it, and belong to such subgroups and derive your inspiration through this,it really is not my problem. I am not any less a Sikh for having nothing to do with subgroups and for focussing on just one single simple Khalsa family that does not need no subdivisions.

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_Moorak_ jee,

As far as I am concerned Guru Gobind Singh created on Vaisakhi the Khalsa. That is all that concerns me. If you and others want to further believe in sempardas and cults and can somehow justify it, and belong to such subgroups and derive your inspiration through this,it really is not my problem. I am not any less a Sikh for having nothing to do with subgroups and for focussing on just one single simple Khalsa family that does not need no subdivisions.

This is exactly why Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj created the Khalsa. The whole Khalsa family is one and stays as one. There would be no discrimination on group. There could have/be different groups, but in the end they are still together as one Khalsa family, following the teachings of the Guru and not accepting any other belief of so called Sants and head leaders. If you look at the great leader of the past like Baba Deep Singh ji, they never discriminated on groups. They kept the unity under one Panth.

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    • https://www.thedrum.com/news/2021/10/14/zulu-alpha-kilo-shares-how-it-helped-harley-davidson-protect-sikh-bikers-with-the   Zulu Alpha Kilo shares how it helped Harley-Davidson protect Sikh bikers with the Tough Turban By Awards Analyst - October 14, 2021 The Tough Turban camapign aimed to improve safety conditions for Sikh motorcyclists.   The challenge Harley-Davidson is a brand built on a love for the open road and its riders are passionate for the freedom that it offers. Yet for some riders, that freedom has come at the expense of their safety and their very identity. For Sikh men, the turban is a deeply important part of their identity. For decades, Sikhs who rode motorcycles found themselves choosing between their beliefs and their safety as all Sikh men are required to cover their hair as a symbol of respect and humility. Because traditional motorcycle helmets violate this religious tenet, the government in the Canadian province of Ontario passed legislation in 2018 that exempts Sikh men from the law requiring all motorcycle riders to wear protective helmets. The exemption was a hard-won step forward, but it also introduced a critical question: how could Sikh riders engage in their passion and still ensure their safety while riding without a traditional helmet? This created an interesting and unusual challenge: how to develop an alternative to a motorcycle helmet so Sikh motorcyclists would no longer have to choose between their beliefs and their safety. The strategy If anyone could address this challenge it would be the world’s most iconic motorcycle brand and its largest Canadian dealership, Pfaff Harley-Davidson in Richmond Hill, Ontario. Harley-Davidson attracts riders of all cultures, yet is often perceived to be the choice of old white men. Stepping up to a challenge like this was an opportunity for Harley-Davidson to help a group of riders overcome a big hurdle to fully embracing their passion – and to send a signal about the importance of diversity. The size of the need is large – Canada is second only to India in the number of Sikhs in the country. Through conversations with Sikh riders an interesting historical truth was discovered. In ancient times, Sikh warriors would go into battle with chain mail woven into the fabric of their turbans. This provided protection without violating religious tenets. It sparked our thinking: why couldn’t a modern-day equivalent be created to provide the safety that Sikhs deserve? It also led to the insight driving the initiative: with the right motorcycle gear, Sikh riders could be empowered to protect who they are. The campaign Tough Turban is a marriage of ancient traditions and modern, high-tech engineering. It’s a turban made of impact-resistant materials that also fully respects the requirements of the Sikh faith. A critical step was the development of the turban itself. Armed with a powerful concept, we assembled our team of industrial design experts with experience in 3D printing and composite fabrics used in bulletproof clothing. After a series of prototypes, a final design was developed. About half the overall fabric is normal turban material, but the outer layers include Dyneema, a 3D-printed carbon-fibre take on chain mail, and non-Newtonian foam, which is normally pliable but hardens instantly on impact. These are the elements that make it a tougher turban. With the design complete, the next part of the plan was the communications needed to get the word out. A website was the anchor of the effort. It houses a video that profiles several Sikh riders discussing the need the Tough Turban addressed, as well as highlighting how the turban was actually engineered. Along with the video, open-sourced production files for the turban were published to enable manufacturers anywhere in the world to be able to produce the turbans in their own markets. PR support outlining the initiative launched in early June, including posts on all of Pfaff Harley-Davidson’s social channels. The results The Tough Turban initiative has been a resounding success. Media response exploded overnight with coverage in 171 US media outlets, 54 in Canada, 18 in the UK and 11 in India, totaling 238.8m earned impressions and an advertising value of $2.19m. Quantitative research with people who own or are planning to buy a motorcycle showed a significant shift in perception after they’d been exposed to the Tough Turban initiative: 87% saw Harley-Davidson as more favourable 86% saw Harley-Davidson as more innovative 83% saw Harley-Davidson as more inclusive 85% were more likely to consider buying a Harley-Davidson Three manufacturers have reached out to explore large-scale production, including the world’s largest producer of two-wheeled motorized vehicles. The potential to save lives through this idea is enormous. It could offer protection to millions of Sikh motorcyclists globally.
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